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exactly.Firstly, the story is a parable using the Rabbinbical language of the day.
Do you really know what 'soul' is?
Biblically, it is the life, locked in the blood. 'It' dies at physical death
Check out the verses for yourself
Numbers 23:10 The soul dies at physical death
Judges 16:30 The soul dies at physical death
Ezekiel 18:4 The whole person who sins will die.
Genesis 2:7 (whole person is a soul)
Deuteronomy 12:23 The blood IS the soul.
Levitis 17:11 The blood contains or is the vehicle of soul.
So your mis informed statement is an absurdity, because to the Hebrew mindset, there is nothing alive about a corpse and you cannot push the Greek idea from a pagan source into the biblicval definition of soul, even though you love to, I suggest you reject any pagan notion and idea and return to the Hebrew definitions about which you write.
Firstly, the story is a parable using the Rabbinbical language of the day.
Do you really know what 'soul' is?
Biblically, it is the life, locked in the blood. 'It' dies at physical death
Check out the verses for yourself
Numbers 23:10 The soul dies at physical death
Judges 16:30 The soul dies at physical death
Ezekiel 18:4 The whole person who sins will die.
Genesis 2:7 (whole person is a soul)
Deuteronomy 12:23 The blood IS the soul.
Levitis 17:11 The blood contains or is the vehicle of soul.
So your mis informed statement is an absurdity, because to the Hebrew mindset, there is nothing alive about a corpse and you cannot push the Greek idea from a pagan source into the biblicval definition of soul, even though you love to, I suggest you reject any pagan notion and idea and return to the Hebrew definitions about which you write.
Why do you keeping raising the point 'no flesh anymore? We both aagree that te new resurrection body will be a 'not of flesh and blood' but a new incorruptable one as in 1 Cor 15 so please leave that alone.
So, based on your idea that Old Testament people like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are 'alive, how do you explain Peter's teaching that David is still dead and buried and did not ascend to heaven and also Christ's own teaching in John 3:13 which states:
John 3:13 (New International Version)
13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a]
Jesus said no man has gone into heaven. This shoots down your theory that they are in heaven. So are you calling Jesus a liar?
But most of Revelation is still future. In Revelation, it is the martyrs of the church (of the last 2000 years) who are asking to be avenged. They are asking God for the Day of the Lord to begin, for judgment of the wicked.
That's when it begins. The church is given her garments of salvation, having endured the great tribulation that began with Israel's desolation, and is removed to the throne of God before the Day of the Lord begins and more martyrs die at the hands of the anti-christ.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
No soul sleep.
During the fifth seal, John saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood. This scene is symbolic, representing the martyrs who died for their steadfast faith in Jesus Christ. God said to Cain after he murdered his brother Abel, What have you done? The voice of your brothers blood cries unto me from the ground. Genesis 4:10. These words parallel what John saw in Revelation 6. The blood of Abel did not literally cry out from the ground. Neither are there actual souls underneath a real altar in heaven. The souls under the altar scene occurs right after the fourth seal scene. There Hell is seen following a pale horse ridden by Death. Revelation 6:7-8. Again, this is obviously symbolic and refers to those martyred for their faith and whose deaths cry out to God for just retribution. Those slain are represented as being told to wait for Gods judgment and their future reward at the second coming of Jesus Christ.
This is the ONLY place in the entire New Testament that suggests that a lost soul goes into a fiery hell immediately at death. This idea is not taught anywhere else - not by Matthew, Mark, John, James, Peter or Paul.
Jesus often told parables. While containing many practical lessons, parables are not meant to be taken literally. Here are 9 reasons why the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is definitely a parable:
- Jesus often began his parables in the book of Luke with the phrase, a certain... See Luke 12:16; 13:6; 14:16; 15:11; 16:1; 19:11-12; 20:9(KJV).
A man cannot literally enter into the I bosom or chest of Abraham.
It is impossible for anyone who is literally burning in fire to carry on a normal conversationCan those in heaven and hell talk to each other?
The rich man was represented as being bodily in hell, with eyes, a mouth, a tongue, etc. This is obviously symbolic. If the rich mans grave was dug up, wouldnt his body be there? Of course.
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A real man burning in fire would not ask for a little water to cool his tongue. (He would ask for the fire brigade!)
Jesus Christ did not interpret every parable He told. Yet He did interpret the parable of the wheat and the weeds in Matthew 13. In His interpretation of this parable, Jesus said plainly that hell-fire occurs at the end, rather than at death. Read Matthew 13:40.
Consciousness at death contradicts the rest of the Bible. Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Psalms 6:5; 115:17; 146:4; etc.
and that if they would not believe Moses and the prophets, a resurrection would not convince them (16:29, 31).
Thus Jesus declared that we must believe Moses and the prophets. Nowhere in the writings of Moses and the prophets do people instantly go to heaven or into hell-fire at death.
Why did Jesus use the name Lazarus? Because this parable was also a prophecy. At the end of His life Jesus would resurrect a real person named Lazarus, yet this miracle would still not convince the Pharisees that He was the Messiah. John 11:1-53.
It was a parable as many theologians would say based on solid cultural and historical basis. Look into it!You're talking about pagan notions but then you're basing your argument on the "Hebrew mindset" which is irrelevant to this discussion. I am 100% basing my statement on the Bible. First of all, this story was not a parable. Secondly, Jesus said a man died and went to hell. He said another man died and went to Abraham's bosom. That is what the Bible says.
Paul said he knew a man who went to the third Heaven. 100% biblical.
Enoch was taken up by God. 100% Biblical.
There are souls of martyrs under the altar of God, who speak to God and receive robes. 100% Biblical.
There is a multitude of people in Heaven singing praises and wearing robes in Revelation chapter 7. 100% biblical.
Elijah went up to Heaven in a whirlwind. 100% Biblical.
All this debating over "what is the soul" is pointless. There are people who go to Heaven in the Bible. It's already happened. Once again, this debate should just be over.
Stop with this sophomoric hyperbole.
Jesus preached to the spirits in prison...did He visit graves in the ground?
Hardly. He "opened the door to heaven" with His sacrifice. Hence the "graves being opened" in Matt. 27:52-53; the "saints which slept" appeared to the people who knew them to witness to them. They didn't go "back into the ground" afterward.
Zeke (and I) keep talking about flesh not coming back because that is the only thing in the ground. There is literally nothing left to "raise". Bodies decompose and disappear. The flesh bodies of David, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc are long gone. They are not in their graves in any way shape or form. They are with Him in heaven right now. Absent from the flesh body, present with the Lord.
It was a parable as many theologians would say based on solid cultural and historical basis. Look into it!
Paul did not know whether it was 'in the body or not. It could well have been a vision; just like the Revelation of John.
All it says is God took him. Jesus said in John 3:13 no one has ever been to heaven so that is 100% biblical.
How does a disembodied soul recieve a robe to wear? This is purely a vision; not literal.
Yes, yes, yes I do! Why? Because God said it. Again, how can you just change meaning of the Scripture. God says He could hear Abel's blood. THere is nothing grammatical or contextual that indicates God was just exaggerating or making a figure of speech.It can be compared with Gen 4:10 where God hears Abel's blood crying from the ground. Does blood make a sound?
You seem to disbelieve a lot of what the bible says about the nature of personhood, what happens in between death and the resurrection and the fact that in 2 places, John 3:13 and Acts 2:29 to 34 where it clearly states people have not ascended to heaven.
So, please explain, what did Jesus mean when he states that no one has gone to Heaven in John 3:13??
Just to mention, John had his vision and revelation while on a Grek Island, he had a vision from God, but physically he was on the earth!!!I have looked into it. And Jesus never refers to anyone real in parables. In this he refers to a man named Lazarus and Abraham. And discusses a conversation therein. All this lends to it being a historical account and not a parable.
Why do people keep saying this? John was in Heaven.
Revelation 4: 1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
John was not just having a vision. He was literally in Heaven. In Spirit form, he was actually there.
And besides, Paul never in any way indicates that the man he is referring to "had a vision" that is just unbiblical speculation. Paul says the man went to Heaven, period. Whether it was in body or spirit is irrelevant. He was there. And again, that ends the debate.
I believe you have misunderstood that verse. When looking at the verse contextually, there are 2 points you are missing. For one, Jesus is establishing his authority to Nicodemus. Remember the conversation that Jesus is having. He is telling Nicodemus how to get to Heaven. This is obviously extremely important. So Jesus wants Nicodemus to know the importance of it. So let's go back a few verses:
11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Jesus is establishing that He has and is, in Heaven and has come up and down to Earth, and thus He can say these things. He is qualified to be our Messiah. No one else has done this.
Now you may think I am just speculating, but remember, much of what Jesus said was direct fulfilment of Old Testament Scripture. And this time is no different:
Deuteronomy 30:12 It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Provers 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?
His Name is Jesus. This verse is Jesus stating that He is this one being spoken of. He is God in human form. Which is why in the same verse He states that He "IS" in Heaven, in present tense. No one else ever can do what He can do. Go up and down from Heaven as He wants.
And that of course leads to point 2) -- The actual meaning of "ascended." The Greek translation means that the person is going up on their own power. Enoch was taken. Elijah went up in a whirlwind. Lazarus was carried by angels. Jesus goes up to Heaven on His own power. So contextually, I think this is the proper meaning of this verse. You cannot try and deny Enoch going to heaven based on this Scripture at all.
OK, you and I clearly have vastly different models for BIblical interpetation. There is nothing, IMO, in that passage in Rev 6 to indicate that John did not literally see the souls of martyrs under the altar. Furthermore, he details a conversation they have with The Lord. Why would he make this up? It doesn't even make sense. And I did not say that the souls wore the robes. I said they were given robes and told to "Wait." I don't believe they wore the robes until Chapter 7 when they received their glorified bodies.
Yes, yes, yes I do! Why? Because God said it. Again, how can you just change meaning of the Scripture. God says He could hear Abel's blood. THere is nothing grammatical or contextual that indicates God was just exaggerating or making a figure of speech.
I have explained it. I believe the BIble 100%. But you have to study things in context or else you will have seeming contradictions. I noticed you overlooked the multitude in Rev 7 who are in Heaven. I assume you think that was not literal too? The fact of the matter is that many have gone to Heaven already and many more will, as soon as they die. Myself included!
It was a vision.Dear Mikecpking
Jeus spoke to Moses and Eliyah at mount Tabor. He was speaking with living not with dead prophets. Now where they are?
It was a vision.
Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead. (Matthew 17:9)The same Greek word for 'vision' is used in other contexts where it is quite clear that they weren't actually real.
What about the verse that says the angels will escourt your soul into Heaven.
And again, absent from the body - present with the Lord.
What about the visions God gave his deciples of Heaven. What about the verse about Lazarath in the bosom of Abraham speaking to the rich man in Hell.
How can we return with Jesus if we are not in HEaven? This earthly body will not be in Heaven.
Not only were they not real, but Jesus spoke to people who weren't there...RIIIIIGHT.
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