Is there an absolute morality?

[ISteveB]

Basically that which causes harm is generally immoral. Unless there is a greater good.

That's why I'm asking. The greater good is YHVH's Law.

And the death penalty for adultry? Yikes! How about working on the Sabbath?

Aren't you glad you don't live in biblical times, in Israel?
The law was given by YHVH to create a society that would be a witness to the world of YHVH's goodness, his righteousness, his justice, his love, mercy, faithfulness, and graciousness.

Some people think that it's actually a good thing to keep their clothes on when it comes to being around other people's spouses.

Jealousy is a powerful thing. Would you want your wife screwing around with your friends, brother, uncles, dad, grandfather, etc.?

Then, some people actually think that taking one day a week to rest and recuperate from a hard week of work is a good thing.

No other cultures had that.

They also had a pretty impressive holiday schedule. At least 2 weeks a year. Special holidays in between.

 

[Bradskii]

That's why I'm asking. The greater good is YHVH's Law.

Aren't you glad you don't live in biblical times, in Israel?
The law was given by YHVH to create a society that would be a witness to the world of YHVH's goodness, his righteousness, his justice, his love, mercy, faithfulness, and graciousness.

Some people think that it's actually a good thing to keep their clothes on when it comes to being around other people's spouses.

Jealousy is a powerful thing. Would you want your wife screwing around with your friends, brother, uncles, dad, grandfather, etc.?

Then, some people actually think that taking one day a week to rest and recuperate from a hard week of work is a good thing.

No other cultures had that.

They also had a pretty impressive holiday schedule. At least 2 weeks a year. Special holidays in between.

But we don't know what God's 'greater good' is. We have to play the cards we are dealt. It could be that the holocaust will lead, as far as God is concerned, to some greater good. But we aren't party to that. So we justifiably find it difficult to express how immoral it was. The word doesn't seem sufficient. And we will all do our best to prevent horrors like that happening again. Because, and this is almost a trite thing to say about it, harm was done. With zero greater good that any sane person could propose. Therefore it was immoral.

So that's what I use to determine what an immoral act is. And pretty much that's what everyone else does. If no harm is done then it can't possibly be immoral. And if harm is done, then - depending on the specific circumstances, it will be immoral. And who makes that decision?

There are two choices and two only. Either someone does it for you. Or you do it yourself. Which do you use?

And you didn't answer my question. God said that the punishment for adultry (and quite a few other acts, such as working on the Sabath and homosexuality), is death. Now I've read the bible as well. Not as much as you. But I can't recall seeing any passage where He recinded those punishments. As far as I know, they still stand. Now I like a day off as much as the next guy. But I don't expect to be stoned to death if I'm out buying fuel.

The question I need you to ask is: Do you think that any civilised society should impose such rules - and why aren't they applicable now (assuming that you feel that they aren't)?

 

[Neogaia777]

The Father, our Father, and Jesus Father, causes, or has caused from the very beginning, everything to work out for the greater good...

This includes all the acts of YHWH in the OT...

Jesus was the end of the laws in and/of the OT, we under a different and newer covenant now, that was established/re-established by Him, etc...

(For it existed before the Law in the OT, etc)...

When the Law was introduced in the OT, it was because the previous covenant had seemed to have failed, so YHWH was trying something else, or what He thought would be a better way in light of the now newer circumstances, etc...

But then that failed as well, etc...

And that leads to Jesus who re-instituted the previous covenant that had existed before the OT Law covenant, etc...

One where the laws of it could not be written down, but could only be or become known in the heart, etc...

This covenant makes exceptions, but at least it is not of the ways or methods of trying to put a band-aid over a bullet-hole at least, etc...

To know how something like the holocaust will serve a greater good in the end, you'd probably have to be God the Father Himself, which we're not, etc...

It might have been how it affected of changed the world after that maybe, etc, or something like that maybe, etc...

A person who gets in a car accident but does not die, may not see something up ahead that might have killed them if that maybe had not happened maybe, and they probably never will, etc...

And I think it is the same with events that happen in the world, and with the world, etc...

So all the specifics are all only all fully known by God the Father alone, etc...

He alone has all of all the foresight fully, and from beginning to end, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

The Father, our Father, and Jesus Father, causes, or has caused from the very beginning, everything to work out for the greater good...

This includes all the acts of YHWH in the OT...

Jesus was the end of the laws in and/of the OT, we under a different and newer covenant now, that was established/re-established by Him, etc...

(For it existed before the Law in the OT, etc)...

When the Law was introduced in the OT, it was because the previous covenant had seemed to have failed, so YHWH was trying something else, or what He thought would be a better way in light of the now newer circumstances, etc...

But then that failed as well, etc...

And that leads to Jesus who re-instituted the previous covenant that had existed before the OT Law covenant, etc...

One where the laws of it could not be written down, but could only be or become known in the heart, etc...

This covenant makes exceptions, but at least it is not of the ways or methods of trying to put a band-aid over a bullet-hole at least, etc...

To know how something like the holocaust will serve a greater good in the end, you'd probably have to be God the Father Himself, which we're not, etc...

It might have been how it affected of changed the world after that maybe, etc, or something like that maybe, etc...

A person who gets in a car accident but does not die, may not see something up ahead that might have killed them if that maybe had not happened maybe, and they probably never will, etc...

And I think it is the same with events that happen in the world, and with the world, etc...

So all the specifics are all only all fully known by God the Father alone, etc...

He alone has all of all the foresight fully, and from beginning to end, etc...

God Bless!

We could have maybe destroyed ourselves a thousand times over by now, but if we could have, we will probably never know about it, etc...

God the Father alone has the full knowledge and foresight, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

We could have maybe destroyed ourselves a thousand times over by now, but if we could have, we will probably never know about it, etc...

God the Father alone has the full knowledge and foresight, etc...

God Bless!

And it is the same with individual lives or life, etc...

Sometimes some bad things have to happen in order to save us or spare us from something worse, or give us the wisdom to avoid something worse in the future, etc...

But we'll never be able to see it or know it, because that kind of knowledge is only with God the Father alone, etc...

We should all seek to become wise regardless though, etc...

Otherwise our experiences might be for nothing, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Bradskii]

When the Law was introduced in the OT, it was because the previous covenant had seemed to have failed, so YHWH was trying something else, or what He thought would be a better way in light of the now newer circumstances, etc...

But then that failed as well, etc..., etc.

So He failed the first time. He thought He'd try something else. He thought it might be better. But that failed as well.

Are we talking the same God? You know, the one that's omnipotent and omniscient?

 

[Neogaia777]

So He failed the first time. He thought He'd try something else. He thought it might be better. But that failed as well.

Are we talking the same God? You know, the one that's omnipotent and omniscient?

Jesus thought there was a higher God, etc.

He knew God in the OT as the Holy Spirit, etc.

Together They form the Trinity, etc.

God Bless!

 

[Bradskii]

Jesus thought there was a higher God, etc.

He knew God in the OT as the Holy Spirit, etc.

Together They form the Trinity, etc.

God Bless!

Well yeah, I know that. But it's not possible to believe that God is both omniscient and omnipotent and then suggest that things he tries don't work as He planned.

 

[Neogaia777]

Well yeah, I know that. But it's not possible to believe that God is both omniscient and omnipotent and then suggest that things he tries don't work as He planned.

The only One who was always 100% truly and fully omniscient from the very beginning was only God the Father, and God the Father only, etc.

But the other Two still had all power and authority in and over this world, and the things in it, from the beginning, etc.

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

The only One who was always 100% truly and fully omniscient from the very beginning was only God the Father, and God the Father only, etc.

But the other Two still had all power and authority in and over this world, and the things in it, from the beginning, etc.

God Bless!

@Bradskii

Well, except power of their own people's choices, but from the Father God's perspective there is no such thing, etc.

God Bles!

 

[TLK Valentine]

The only One who was always 100% truly and fully omniscient from the very beginning was only God the Father, and God the Father only, etc.

But the other Two still had all power and authority in and over this world, and the things in it, from the beginning, etc.

God Bless!

All the power and authority; none of the foresight... a recipe for trouble if ever there was one.

 

[Neogaia777]

All the power and authority; none of the foresight... a recipe for trouble if ever there was one.

I didn't say "none", because if you look in the Bible, it's obvious They had "some", etc...

They could fully know and predict all of the ways of the wicked, or of the pagan, or of the non-believer, just like the Father, which gave Them some amount of foresight, etc, but unlike the Father, when it came down to the choices of their own people, there were some of their choices that they couldn't see past, or fully predict fully, which limited some of their foresight, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

All the power and authority; none of the foresight... a recipe for trouble if ever there was one.

But yes, sometimes all-power without all-knowledge fully, can be a problem sometimes, etc...

But They never sinned, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

All the power and authority; none of the foresight... a recipe for trouble if ever there was one.

I didn't say "none", because if you look in the Bible, it's obvious They had "some", etc...

They could fully know and predict all of the ways of the wicked, or of the pagan, or of the non-believer, just like the Father, which gave Them some amount of foresight, etc, but unlike the Father, when it came down to the choices of their own people, there were some of their choices that they couldn't see past, or fully predict fully, which limited some of their foresight, etc...

God Bless!

They could also manipulate and/or have a certain amount of control over the choices of the wicked also, but not so much with their very own people, etc...

And this is evidenced (over and over again sometimes) in the Bible as well, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

They could also manipulate and/or have a certain amount of control over the choices of the wicked also, but not so much with their very own people, etc...

And this is evidenced (over and over again sometimes) in the Bible as well, etc...

God Bless!

Which could also sometimes throw a monkey wrench in everything else as well, etc...

The part about their very own people, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Which could also sometimes throw a monkey wrench in everything else as well, etc...

The part about their very own people, etc...

God Bless!

That sometimes required a change or shift in plans...

The part about their very own people, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

None of this applies to God the Father though, etc...

From that One's perspective, none of these things even exist, etc...

But He has already set all already, from an already predetermined course from the very beginning, etc...

God Bless!

 

[TLK Valentine]

I didn't say "none", because if you look in the Bible, it's obvious They had "some", etc...

They could fully know and predict all of the ways of the wicked, or of the pagan, or of the non-believer, just like the Father, which gave Them some amount of foresight, etc, but unlike the Father, when it came down to the choices of their own people, there were some of their choices that they couldn't see past, or fully predict fully, which limited some of their foresight, etc...

God Bless!

Well, in the case of Jesus, the whole point of the incarnation is that he was fully human, not just "God in a human suit," as it were.
To be fully human means psychologically as well as physically -- the human experience with all the mystery, uncertainty, and anxiety that goes with it. So how much of Jesus' prediction was divine, and how much of was as a human... savvy in the ways of human nature?

As for the Holy Spirit, that's always a more nebulous thing, isn't it? I've been told that the HS is that part of God that He, like any other artist, writer, or creator, leaves behind in His work. I may not be a Christian, but I like that description.

 

[TLK Valentine]

But yes, sometimes all-power without all-knowledge fully, can be a problem sometimes, etc...

But They never sinned, etc...

God Bless!

It would be ontologically impossible for Jesus or the HS to sin, if the trinity is to be believed... "Sin" is an act of disobedience against God, and how can God disobey Himself?

 

[TLK Valentine]

They could also manipulate and/or have a certain amount of control over the choices of the wicked also, but not so much with their very own people, etc...

Which raises some sticky questions regarding free will which are better left unanswered.

If Exodus is to be believed, God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he wouldn't free the Israelites, so that God could smack them with another plague...

Can Pharaoh be held responsible for these actions if God was controlling his choices? What chance did Pharaoh ever have to resist God's influence?