Is there a Christian Passover?

[Hazelelponi]

If it is fulfilled through Christ wouldn't it be more appropriate that we keep Christ as our sabbath over simply changing the day?

Christ was ressurected on the 1st day of the week so we keep our rest for first day. It is commemorating Christ's work through His death and resurrection, every week.

This was the habit of the early church, they called it the Lord's Day.

 

[DamianWarS]

Christ was ressurected on the 1st day of the week so we keep our rest for first day. It is commemorating Christ's work through His death and resurrection, every week.

This was the habit of the early church, they called it the Lord's Day.

Yes, The Lord's Day... but not Sabbath. We may celebrate the resurrection of Christ on Sunday, which gives it the name "The Lord's Day" but this rest can only be found through Christ and not through a single day. His resurrection may have initiated the release of this rest to all so in this sense the day of his resurrection was the first new sabbath, but the day itself does not contain it. Such a concept would be counter-gospel (and pagan, I might add). Christ's rest is just as powerful on Monday as it is on Sunday or any other day, and we have continual need of it, not to mention it is just as worthy to celebrate throughout any moment. Where there is nothing wrong with a gathering in celebration of the resurrection of Christ and his rest he gives, and it should be encouraged, but the day itself holds no power or special properties. It is only Christ that gives the rest and it's available in every moment the same way.

Think of the Sabbath law, it speaks of not just the people of the household, but even the animals are to rest. The thing with animals, especially work animals, are that they have no authority to rest. When they are told to work, they must work; otherwise be whipped or sent to slaughter. These animals could not take rest for themselves, they must be given rest and not by just anyone, but by one with authority. It was only through the one with authority that they could rest. This is a powerful salvation metaphor that points to the rest of Christ who declared himself as "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mat 12:8). Jesus's establishment as Lord of the Sabbath means he is the one with authority. So the rest he gives we know is true, and we know has the power to extend to every moment over just a single day.

 

[sparow]

If one keeps goodness according to Christ, they are lawful and such a person cannot be called lawless. So I'm not sure where the confusion is. Either there is a disagreement as to what this goodness is or an unwillingness to accept it.

Christ shows a fairly clear example with the Sabbath saying that doing good on the Sabbath is lawful. So the work invested in said goodness then inherits the lawful action.

Your use of the word "goodness" is a problem for me. If you said, "If one keeps the commandments of God according to Christ", that would be scriptural; goodness does not mean the same thing, especially in this time when men call evil goo and good evil.

 

[sparow]

Christ was ressurected on the 1st day of the week so we keep our rest for first day. It is commemorating Christ's work through His death and resurrection, every week.

This was the habit of the early church, they called it the Lord's Day.

What you say is historically true, but not Biblically correct. If we consider the Passover festival a prophesy or a set of types, the Jesus as an anti-type, was the lamb on the day, 14 Nisan, he spent 15, 16, 17 Nisan in the Grave, three days and three nights, was found risen on 18 Nisan which would have been Sunday on that year. Since that time the Church has managed to mix Pagan practice into the Passover.

 

[DamianWarS]

Your use of the word "goodness" is a problem for me. If you said, "If one keeps the commandments of God according to Christ", that would be scriptural; goodness does not mean the same thing, especially in this time when men call evil goo and good evil.

You act like I made up these words. Christ speaks of goodness and speaks of it as lawful (Mt 12:12) so it is scriptural. If we are practitioners of this goodness Christ speaks of then it too is lawful.

This isn't difficult.

 

[sparow]

You act like I made up these words. Christ speaks of goodness and speaks of it as lawful (Mt 12:12) so it is scriptural. If we are practitioners of this goodness Christ speaks of then it too is lawful.

This isn't difficult.

You are wrong, it is very difficult, I think it is called hardening the heart. The Law produces goodness; goodness does not produce the Law. You are probably missing the context in which Jesus spoke; he was addressing the screwed-up perception of the Law that the Pharisees had.

The issue is abrogating the Law, many of these sayings of men achieve exactly that.

 

[DamianWarS]

You are wrong, it is very difficult, I think it is called hardening the heart. The Law produces goodness; goodness does not produce the Law. You are probably missing the context in which Jesus spoke; he was addressing the screwed-up perception of the Law that the Pharisees had.

The issue is abrogating the Law, many of these sayings of men achieve exactly that.

I speak of a goodness that Jesus speaks of when he said "it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath". Which part do you disagree with?

What begets what is a different sort of question, but certainly goodness and love predate law

What would the result be if this goodness was practiced all the time (even outside the Sabbath) would it too be lawful?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Hello. You are incorrect. All the ceremonial sabbath's are fulfilled in Christ as they all pointed to HIM. Now, we observe Sunday as our Sabbath rest.

Sunday, the 1st day of the week, is a commemoration of his resurrection. The sabbath has never changed, it is always on the 7th day. You are incorrect.

 

[DamianWarS]

Sunday, the 1st day of the week, is a commemoration of his resurrection. The sabbath has never changed, it is always on the 7th day. You are incorrect.

There is an aspect of a spiritual sabbath released through the resurrection of Christ. I'm sure you already know this so no need to go into detail. Perhaps it is this spirital value that @Hazelelponi is identifying rather than a physical day of the week which clearly is a static day and doesn't change.

How this pertains to law is a different matter. If we use circumcision as a heuristic then the spiritual is valued over the physical (in NT teaching). My question would be if circumcision, a sign of the everlasting covenant between God and Abraham for generations is spiritualized would it not be consistent the treat all law in the same way, especially another sign of a everlasting covenant?

How do we determine the physical for one everlasting covenant must be observed by the letter but another everlasting covenant may not keep the letter and keep it through spiritual means?

Of course this wouldn't replace the sabbath with another day which would be silly, but rather with released for all moments so we keep Christ over letters of stone.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

There is an aspect of a spiritual sabbath released through the resurrection of Christ. I'm sure you already know this so no need to go into detail. Perhaps it is this spirital value that @Hazelelponi is identifying rather than a physical day of the week which clearly is a static day and doesn't change.

How this pertains to law is a different matter. If we use circumcision as a heuristic then the spiritual is valued over the physical (in NT teaching). My question would be if circumcision, a sign of the everlasting covenant between God and Abraham for generations is spiritualized would it not be consistent the treat all law in the same way, especially another sign of a everlasting covenant?

How do we determine the physical for one everlasting covenant must be observed by the letter but another everlasting covenant may not keep the letter and keep it through spiritual means?

Of course this wouldn't replace the sabbath with another day which would be silly, but rather with released for all moments so we keep Christ over letters of stone.

Well no, this was said "Now, we observe Sunday as our Sabbath rest". This does imply "instead of"...if so then you must feel it silly also?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Well no, this was said "Now, we observe Sunday as our Sabbath rest". This does imply "instead of"...if so then you must feel it silly also?

How then did Christ fail to keep the whole law, and have it fulfilled in Him?

He fulfilled the law, we are under the Covenant of Grace, in the New Covenant now. The Old Covenant was type and shadow fulfilled in Christ - Christ in His death and resurrection is our Sabbath rest from the works of the law.

Now, we keep God's moral law written on our hearts in the New Covenant which we enter through Grace by Faith.

We are not the children of the circumcision anymore. If we go back, we reject Grace. Christ is the Sabbath rest. Hence , the Covenant people commemorate the Sabbath on the first day of the week.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

How then did Christ fail to keep the whole law, and have it fulfilled in Him?

He fulfilled the law, we are under the Covenant of Grace, in the New Covenant now. The Old Covenant was type and shadow fulfilled in Christ - Christ in His death and resurrection is our Sabbath rest from the works of the law.

Now, we keep God's moral law written on our hearts in the New Covenant which we enter through Grace by Faith.

We are not the children of the circumcision anymore. If we go back, we reject Grace. Christ is the Sabbath rest. Hence , the Covenant people commemorate the Sabbath on the first day of the week.

If there is no law, what need is there for grace? He did not fail to keep the law. The sabbath is NOT on the 1st day of the week...that has never changed.

 

[Hazelelponi]

If there is no law, what need is there for grace? He did not fail to keep the law. The sabbath is NOT on the 1st day of the week...that has never changed.

We disagree on this point I shared from the Westminster Confession of Faith.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

We disagree on this point I shared from the Westminster Confession of Faith.

I have no idea what that is and it holds no authority for me.

 

[DamianWarS]

Well no, this was said "Now, we observe Sunday as our Sabbath rest". This does imply "instead of"...if so then you must feel it silly also?

I get it, there is a misunderstood connection to the sabbath day perpetuated by traditional practices.

There are either 2 ways to take it, physical sabbath day has changed to a different physical day (agree or disagree) or the 4th commandment core values are released in the new covenant through spiritual values under Christ.

An issue is the latter may be often confused as a first day sabbath value since the resurrection (first day) would have initiated this release. But the value that is really being captured is a spiritual value, not a static day, we have to deduce which value is really being captured.

It's easy to just default to a day-of-the-week argument. It's a moot topic since the day is clear in the bible with no mention of a change. If we are to accept Sola scriptura then the Church post canon cannot change this and so is a mic drop argument, Sabbath remains as Sabbath. You can stick to a day-of-the-week vacuum but I think this avoids the crux of the issue regarding the spiritual release of the Sabbath through Christ over strictly keeping the letter of the law which probably is near impossible in modern living (if we want to be true to the letter that is)

Christ speaks of another mechanism to keep sabbath which is through goodness (Mt 12:12) and this can be seen as indiscriminate to a day of the week as goodness should not be something we turn on and off but rather continually practiced. This is also consistent with other NT/Christ teaching showing that Christ's law is a fulfilment of the law with emphasis on loving your neighbour as yourself.

 

[DamianWarS]

If there is no law, what need is there for grace? He did not fail to keep the law. The sabbath is NOT on the 1st day of the week...that has never changed.

Sabbath rest can only be given by one with authority, it cannot be taken by keeping a day. The 4th itself shows us even animals rest but just like use an animal has no authority to take rest, only one with authority may give them rest and this the same with Christ who declares himself Lord of the Sabbath, surely he is one with authority to give it to us (he was there when it was made)

following Christ is not lawlessness even if you are not guided by old covenant law. Christ has clear instruction guided by love and goodness towards others, it is not purposeless, it is defined through Christ and even goes as far as saying they fulfill law. This is not lawlessness but shown as a mechanism to keep law so by definition is lawfulness.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It's easy to just default to a day-of-the-week argument. It's a moot topic since the day is clear in the bible with no mention of a change. If we are to accept Sola scriptura then the Church post canon cannot change this and so is a mic drop argument, Sabbath remains as Sabbath. You can stick to a day-of-the-week vacuum but I think this avoids the crux of the issue regarding the spiritual release of the Sabbath through Christ over strictly keeping the letter of the law which probably is near impossible in modern living (if we want to be true to the letter that is)

Christ speaks of another mechanism to keep sabbath which is through goodness (Mt 12:12) and this can be seen as indiscriminate to a day of the week as goodness should not be something we turn on and off but rather continually practiced. This is also consistent with other NT/Christ teaching showing that Christ's law is a fulfilment of the law with emphasis on loving your neighbour as yourself.

Your use of Mt 12:12 is out of context...it was NEVER against the law to do good on Shabbat. Also "Christ's Law" is the same as what is given in Deuteronomy and Leviticus...love God and your neighbor...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Sabbath rest can only be given by one with authority, it cannot be taken by keeping a day. The 4th itself shows us even animals rest but just like use an animal has no authority to take rest, only one with authority may give them rest and this the same with Christ who declares himself Lord of the Sabbath, surely he is one with authority to give it to us (he was there when it was made)

following Christ is not lawlessness even if you are not guided by old covenant law. Christ has clear instruction guided by love and goodness towards others, it is not purposeless, it is defined through Christ and even goes as far as saying they fulfill law. This is not lawlessness but shown as a mechanism to keep law so by definition is lawfulness.

God DID give the sabbath command...love fulfills the law as He said. Love does not murder or steal or bare false witness...

 

[DamianWarS]

Your use of Mt 12:12 is out of context...it was NEVER against the law to do good on Shabbat. Also "Christ's Law" is the same as what is given in Deuteronomy and Leviticus...love God and your neighbor...

Right... So why not just do good? Christ's law can be found in Torah as you are aware but Christ elevates them above the law. It may seem circular but I think it's clear he's not trying to create some logic loop but that Christ's law itself operates as a construct that all law is based on and of course this will mirror itself. So anything that violates Christ's law cannot be lawful but he also shows that goodness itself is always lawful even when the letter is not kept.

 

[DamianWarS]

God DID give the sabbath command...love fulfills the law as He said. Love does not murder or steal or bare false witness...

It's pretty easy not to murder, steal, lie or not sleep with my neighbours wife. But none of that has to do with love; they are what to resist but not what to practice. The law itself can be very superfical and not actually address the heart. Christ exposes these with his dialogue with the rich man or in Mat 5. Christ again shows that love/goodness in the framework he gives is a mechanism of lawful action that operates above the letter.