Is there a Christian Passover?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Right... So why not just do good? Christ's law can be found in Torah as you are aware but Christ elevates them above the law. It may seem circular but I think it's clear he's not trying to create some logic loop but that Christ's law itself operates as a construct that all law is based on and of course this will mirror itself. So anything that violates Christ's law cannot be lawful but he also shows that goodness itself is always lawful even when the letter is not kept.

When did I say not to do good? It is because He taught Torah...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It's pretty easy not to murder, steal, lie or not sleep with my neighbours wife. But none of that has to do with love; they are what to resist but not what to practice.

Of course it does...that was the point. When you murder, steal or sleep with your neighbors wife, you do not love them.

 

[DamianWarS]

When did I say not to do good? It is because He taught Torah...

If goodness is a mechanism of lawful action that operates above the letter then why not just keep goodness

Of course it does...that was the point. When you murder, steal or sleep with your neighbors wife, you do not love them.

Indeed if I fail to resist those things I do not love. But I may not steal, lie, murder, etc... yet still habour hatred for my neighbour in my heart. I have kept the law, but I've missed the point.

If my focus from the beginning was to love as Christ calls us to love I don't need to take out my check list to see what I've kept or not, I implicitly keep law because my actions of love towards my neighbour are a mechanism of lawful action that operate above the letter.

Its product is not going to be murdering, stealing, lying, etc... sure, but it's product will also be so much deeper. And if that action of love involved work on the Sabbath it too is lawful because as Jesus says "doing good on the Sabbath is lawful". His direct example is pulling sheep out of pits but do we really need to be spoon feed the answer? Sheep in pits are a metaphor for the lost, and pulling them out of their spiritual pits may involve physical labour, it might be as simple as cutting your neighbours grass on the Sabbath or helping them fix a car. If the work is part of the pulling sheep out of pits then this is good and this is lawful

You may argue that the labour can wait for another day, but if the labour is good it doesn't need to wait it can be immediate and indiscriminate of the day of the week. Goodness is goodness and it doesn't care what day of the week it is, if it's good on a Monday, then it is good on the Sabbath.

 

[sparow]

I speak of a goodness that Jesus speaks of when he said "it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath". Which part do you disagree with?

What begets what is a different sort of question, but certainly goodness and love predate law

What would the result be if this goodness was practiced all the time (even outside the Sabbath) would it too be lawful?

I have lost track of what we are talking about and how we have strayed.

There is a difference between what Jesus said and what you say, Jesus had a context, Jesus was being accused and, in that way, good is defined. Not all good things take precedence over the Sabbath; Pagan Easter is not a good thing that it honors Christ, or that it takes precedence over the annual Sabbath called the Passover.

Goodness is an abstract that does not mean much until it is defined in some way, like, goodness is keeping the commandments of God. Muslims can do good things, but they do not keep the Sabbath, or depend on Christ for their salvation, they may be like the Sadducees and not believe in salvation at all.

 

[DamianWarS]

Goodness is an abstract that does not mean much until it is defined in some way, like, goodness is keeping the commandments of God. Muslims can do good things, but they do not keep the Sabbath, or depend on Christ for their salvation, they may be like the Sadducees and not believe in salvation at all.

I speak of goodness defined by Christ, I have been careful to only address goodness this way. Muslims may keep the law too, even the Sabbath but achieve nothing. I may not steal, murder or sleep with my neighbour wife and resisting those things are good but I may also hate my neighbour (and his wife) and show no love. Resisting the former is good but the sum total fails. The key ingredient of course is faith in Christ where the goodness is an outflowing not a task list.

We may separate acts of the letter and acts of goodness; they don't always look the same because they can have different goals, the letter tends to be superficial and outward driven and does not address the heart where acts of Christ are inward driven extending to the outward. If my goal is not to lie I may achieve that goal but still fail to achieve a goal of love or fail to address the deception in my heart, so although I keep the letter it has no value and I would be no better than the Muslim. Goodness then can be contrasted with the letter, even if goodness/love overlaps it is so much deeper and in the end it is goodness/love that should be favoured over the letter if they should cross. (this is of course all under Christ)

If I see a sheep in a pit on the Sabbath should I ignore it until the sabbath is over? Of course not, but then why should I ignore any act of goodness and rate it second to the letter? Sure, goodness is abstract but in our Christian charity if we can define goodness on a Monday then is it also not goodness on the Sabbath? Is it also not lawful? The cavet is the heart but it is an outflowing of the heart through Christ that I speak of when I speak of goodness.

 

[Hazelelponi]

It's pretty easy not to murder, steal, lie or not sleep with my neighbours wife. But none of that has to do with love; they are what to resist but not what to practice. The law itself can be very superfical and not actually address the heart. Christ exposes these with his dialogue with the rich man or in Mat 5. Christ again shows that love/goodness in the framework he gives is a mechanism of lawful action that operates above the letter.

We are released from the works of the law in Christ, now we worship in Spirit and in Truth (all we do - all of our acts - is worship).

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

If goodness is a mechanism of lawful action that operates above the letter then why not just keep goodness

Indeed if I fail to resist those things I do not love. But I may not steal, lie, murder, etc... yet still habour hatred for my neighbour in my heart. I have kept the law, but I've missed the point.

And if that action of love involved work on the Sabbath it too is lawful because as Jesus says "doing good on the Sabbath is lawful". His direct example is pulling sheep out of pits but do we really need to be spoon feed the answer? Sheep in pits are a metaphor for the lost, and pulling them out of their spiritual pits may involve physical labour, it might be as simple as cutting your neighbours grass on the Sabbath or helping them fix a car. If the work is part of the pulling sheep out of pits then this is good and this is lawful

Keeping goodness IS the law. Hating your neighbor does not fulfill the law. Doing good works on Shabbat does not abrogate Shabbat.

 

[Sabertooth]

Paul goes through great lengths to declare that Gentiles do not need to observe Jewish Feasts in order to receive Salvation.

Our family is in the habit of viewing them through the lens of Jesus.

• Jesus was the ultimate Passover Lamb. (Easter is a counterfeit.)
• Pentecost is the Church's birthday!
• There is good evidence that the Feast of Tabernacles was Jesus' birthday. (Christmas is a counterfeit.)
• Feast of Trumpets (Jewish New Year), especially on a Jubilee, reminds us of Jesus' imminent return...

Also, Communion is the New Testament descendant of Passover.

 

[armchairscholar]

I speak of goodness defined by Christ, I have been careful to only address goodness this way. Muslims may keep the law too, even the Sabbath but achieve nothing. I may not steal, murder of sleep with my neighbour wife and resisting those things are good but I may also hate my neighbour (and his wife) and show no love. Resisting the former is good but the sum total fails. The key ingredient of course is faith in Christ where the goodness is an outflowing not a task list.


We may separate acts of the letter and acts of goodness; they don’t always look the same because they can have different goals, the letter tends to be superficial and outward driven and does not address the heart where acts of Christ are inward driven extending to the outward. If my goal is not to lie I may achieve that goal but still fail to achieve a goal of love, so although I keep the letter it has no value. Goodness then can be contrasted with the letter, even if goodness/love overlaps—it’s so much deeper and in the end it’s goodness/love that should be favoured over the letter. (This is of course all under Christ.)

If I see a sheep in a pit on the Sabbath should I ignore it until the sabbath is over? Of course not, but then why should I ignore any act of goodness and rate it second to the letter? Sure, goodness is abstract but in our Christian charity if we can define goodness on a Monday then is it also not goodness on the Sabbath? Is it also not lawful? The caveat is the heart but it is an outflowing of the heart through Christ that I speak of when I speak of goodness.

You’ve really hit on something important: it’s not enough just to follow rules. Jesus himself showed that caring for people—like rescuing that sheep—goes beyond keeping the Sabbath perfectly. Our hearts shape how we act. If our heart is closed or full of fear, we might check off a “don’t lie” box but miss out on kindness and love.

Looking back through history, early Christians often found ways to serve others on days of rest, because their faith overflowed into every part of life. They knew the law pointed them to God’s love, not away from it. We learn from their stories that real goodness starts inside—our thoughts, compassion, trust in Christ—and naturally spills into helping our neighbors.

So when you talk about the “letter” of the law versus the “spirit” or deeper love, you’re echoing what Jesus taught: love God, love people. That love never takes a day off—whether it’s Monday or Sabbath—and it comes straight from the heart’s relationship with Christ.

 

[DamianWarS]

Keeping goodness IS the law. Hating your neighbor does not fulfill the law. Doing good works on Shabbat does not abrogate Shabbat.

I think a missed focus is why not just keep goodness over keeping the letter? Goodness is not simply lawful, but it is a better way to keep law since a focus on the strict letter can miss the point (Mat 5 highlights this also, Mat 19 with the rich man). It is a goodness defined through Christ so what we are keeping is Christ and his law of goodness/love. In this, we do not abrogate anything since we are speaking only of lawful action, but our focus shifts from keeping the letter to keeping Christ. Since the latter still keeps law, there is no concern of breaking it.

NT authors touch on this theme

Jam 2:8
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right.

Gal 5:14
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Gal 6:2
Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

Romans 13:9-10
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

If we keep this one commandment, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” as scripture tells us (quoted directly from Gal 5:14), then my lawful action of Christ's law is still lawful on the Sabbath, even if it involves labour. When we align with Christ's law, our actions inherit lawful practice regardless of when they are done or what they involve. In NT practice, this is better put as being spirit-led (Gal 5:16-18). Again, nothing is abrogated; I only speak of lawful action, but our motivation has shifted to Christ-led/Spirit-led then letter of the law-led. Goodness was always lawful, even in the old covenant, but the new revelation is defined through Christ and Spirit-led as a new mechanism of lawful practice, which is shown as a better way than the old.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I think a missed focus is why not just keep goodness over keeping the letter? Goodness is not simply lawful, but it is a better way to keep law since a focus on the strict letter can miss the point (Mat 5 highlights this also, Mat 19 with the rich man). It is a goodness defined through Christ so what we are keeping is Christ and his law of goodness/love. In this, we do not abrogate anything since we are speaking only of lawful action, but our focus shifts from keeping the letter to keeping Christ. Since the latter still keeps law, there is no concern of breaking it.

NT authors touch on this theme

Jam 2:8
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right.

Gal 5:14
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Gal 6:2
Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

Romans 13:9-10
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

If we keep this one commandment, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” as scripture tells us (quoted directly from Gal 5:14), then my lawful action of Christ's law is still lawful on the Sabbath, even if it involves labour. When we align with Christ's law, our actions inherit lawful practice regardless of when they are done or what they involve. In NT practice, this is better put as being spirit-led (Gal 5:16-18). Again, nothing is abrogated; I only speak of lawful action, but our motivation has shifted to Christ-led/Spirit-led then letter of the law-led. Goodness was always lawful, even in the old covenant, but the new revelation is defined through Christ and Spirit-led as a new mechanism of lawful practice, which is shown as a better way than the old.

isn't that what I just said?

 

[HIM]

Jesus is the Passover, but he is not the Passover feast, Jesus is not the memorizing function he has asked us to engage in (do this in remembrance of me).

The Christian Passover is not Christ passing over but the celebration and remembrance of him passing over; but is this celebration instead of what God previously instructed or is it in addition to what God has previously instructed?

Christ passing over is a 2300-year event, his first coming, his second coming, and everything in between. His passing over will include the resurrection of the righteous and blood to the belly of horses.

Paul makes clear that he isn't talking about literal bread, leavened or unleavened, because he writes "the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." If we read the verse in its context, Paul has just referred to those who were committing sexual immorality by saying that "a little leaven leavens the whole lump."

Amen

He IS speaking of it so Pascha is implied.

But not in the manner you speak. The purging out of the known sin, leaven of others and ourselves in the church continuously is the context. He is speaking of a people that are or are to be unleavened, sinless. These whom are unleavened are so because they partook and continue to partake of the Passover lamb and thereby are one with Christ and also partook of His life, death and resurrection and are living the new life in Christ Jesus. We passed over the threshold and have begun our walk to and in the promised land, Christ Jesus. Therefore, we will be passed over when the Judgement comes.
We are unleavened as a church and are to remain so because Christ are Passover was sacrificed for us and we are partaking of Him. That is the context. This unleavenedness is to be kept, solemnized continuously. Christ are Passover is not sacrificed over and over again. But in order for us to make it until He comes in His glory we must partake of Him continuously. Hence the present tense of the words "keep the festival".

We are what we eat. The word is manifested in our flesh through Him. His law in our hearts and minds. He is the first among many brethren. He has given us a new Spirit to cause us to walk in His ways. But we must partake of Him always. That we constantly purge out the leaven from our house the church, so as we remain a new lump in Him. Washed, sanctified and justified through the Spirit For we are members of Christ, God's Temple. And it is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure.

1Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Cor 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
1Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Cor 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make [them] the members of an harlot? God forbid.
1Cor 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

I never said leavened bread was used. Leaven represents sin. 1 Corinthians 5:7 does use "pascha"...

But it is a continuous purging of the leaven in us and the Church Body.

 

[sparow]

We are released from the works of the law in Christ, now we worship in Spirit and in Truth (all we do - all of our acts - is worship).

To be critical of the Law is to be critical of God. Works of the Law, seems to be a saying of Paul, but following Christ, the Pharisees made the Law a heavy load. Since Christ the new church is the priesthood, but God does not change and still requires of Israel today what he always required, primarily to enter in-to the covenant. My understanding is if one does not have the Law of God, one will have the mark of the beast.