Is there a CF section for...

Ran77

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...Mormons? Why or why not?

Also, for those of you who have had contact with Mormons, what is your general impression of them? (And I don't just mean the ones who knock on your door)

There used to be. You would have to ask one of the moderators why they did away with the LDS portion of the Unorthodox forums.

:)
 
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Enkil

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Mormonism historically has not considered itself Christian. Statements to the contrary are all a more recent phenomena.

Check out these quotes:

"Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the Church of the Lamb of God and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to that great church; which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth." (The Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10)

"Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." (Documentary History of the Church, Introduction, xl)

"I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian Churches), for they were all wrong...that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight" (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

"...orthodox Christian views of God are Pagan rather than Christian." (Mormon Doctrine of Deity by B.H. Roberts, p.116)

"...the God whom the 'Christians' worship is a being of their own creation..." (Apostle Charles W. Penrose, JD 23:243)

"The Christian world, so called, are heathens as to their knowledge of the salvation of God." (Brigham Young, JD 8:171)

"We may very properly say that the sectarian world do not know anything correctly, so far as pertains to salvation. Ask them where heaven is?- where they are going to when they die?-where Paradise is! -and there is not a priest in the world that can answer your questions. Ask them what kind of a being our Heavenly Father is, and they cannot tell you so much as Balaam's ass told him. They are more ignorant than children." (Brigham Young, JD 5:229).

"The Christian world, I discovered, was like the captain and crew of a vessel on the ocean without a compass, and tossed to and fro whithersoever the wind listed to blow them. When the light came to me, I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness." (Brigham Young, JD 5:73).

"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute best." (John Taylor, JD 13:225)

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing...Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God." (John Taylor, JI) 13:225)

"Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.177)

"I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true." (Joseph Smith, DHC 1:6)

"I spoke of the impropriety of turning away from the truth, and going after a people so destitute of righteousness as the Methodists." (Joseph Smith, DHC 2:319)

"...brother Joseph B. Nobles once told a Methodist priest, after hearing him describe his god, that the god they worshiped was the "Mormon's" Devil-a being without a body, whereas our God has a body, parts and passions." (Brigham Young, JD 5:331)

"...brother Heber C. Kimball was beset by a number of Baptist priests who had been attending a conference. He read them all down out of the New Testament....With regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world." (Brigham Young, JD 8:199).

"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church, is the great corrupt, ecclesiastical power, represented by great Babylon...." (Orson Pratt, Orson Pratt, Writings of an Apostle,"Divine Authenticity," no.6, p.84).

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels." (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60)

"And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act." (Orson Pratt, OP-WA, "The Kingdom of God," no.2, p.6)

"...all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who recieves baptism or the Lord's supper from their hands will highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt people." (Orson Pratt, The Seer, pg. 255)

"...the great apostate church as the anti-christ...This great antichrist...is the church of the devil." (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine p.40)

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "harlot of Babylon" whom the lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness." (Pratt, The Seer, p.255)

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth." (Brigham Young, JD 6:176)

"Evil spirits control much of the so-called religious worship in the world; for instance, the great creeds of Christendom were formulated so as to conform to their whispered promptings." (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.246)

"After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christiandom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common orgin. They belong to Babylon." (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, p.324)

Finally, note the views of Mormon Prophet Brigham Young regarding the Christian view of Jesus Christ:

"You may hear the divines of the day extol the character of the Saviour, undertake to exhibit his true character before the people, and give an account of his origin...I have frequently thought of mules, which you know are half horse and half ass, when reflecting upon the representations made by those divines. I have heard sectarian priests undertake to tell the character of the Son of God, and they make him half of one species and half of another, and I could not avoid thinking at once of the mule, which is the most hateful creature that ever was made, I believe. You will excuse me, but I have thus thought many a time" (Journal of Discourses 4:217).

---

There is no question that Mormonism and Christianity are utterly opposed, not just in doctrine and beliefs, but even in attitude.
 
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JRSut1000

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I guess the observation I want to make is this:

I used to think Mormoms were this weird cult group whose only aim was to convert other people. And while I'm not allowed to comment on the cult aspect, I will say that I have further observations. I contacted a contractor to do a few work projects in/on my home. Turns out he was a British Mormon. How did I know this? Well I gathered he was British from his accent. But I also searched him online to make sure he was reputable and he had a social network profile and that's how I found out he was LDS. Very professional, very polite, and very helpful! He was willing to talk about anything and give his wisdom perspective on many things, particularly religion and finances. He is a self made contractor, he didnt work for anyone. But in addition to that, he was also very financially saavy. I was very impressed with his overall attitude about life and finances. Moreso than much of what I see in Christian churches today. He talked about the parable of the talents and it never hit home as much as it did when he talked about it.

It seems many Christians put their heads in the dirt when it comes to money matters as though it were some type of evil. But money isn't the problem, it's the love of money that's the problem, basically meaning allowing money to control you instead of you controlling or having master of it. This man continued to talk about the parable of the talents and how it is good to be wise in matters of money and that it's not wrong to want to invest and grow what you have both for the Kingdom and for a legacy for your prodigy and also to make a difference for good in the world (blessing others and giving to the less fortunate). It made sense in a way that inspired me.

And while I don't intend on joining the LDS church anytime soon [ever], I was left with a renewed perspective that was really really refreshing. Also his work ethic was something to note as well in addition to his polite genuine manner. He was a true testiment to what he believed. I can only hope all of us are at least that much so.
 
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Enkil

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I guess the observation I want to make is this:

I used to think Mormoms were this weird cult group whose only aim was to convert other people. And while I'm not allowed to comment on the cult aspect, I will say that I have further observations. I contacted a contractor to do a few work projects in/on my home. Turns out he was a British Mormon. How did I know this? Well I gathered he was British from his accent. But I also searched him online to make sure he was reputable and he had a social network profile and that's how I found out he was LDS. Very professional, very polite, and very helpful! He was willing to talk about anything and give his wisdom perspective on many things, particularly religion and finances. He is a self made contractor, he didnt work for anyone. But in addition to that, he was also very financially saavy. I was very impressed with his overall attitude about life and finances. Moreso than much of what I see in Christian churches today. He talked about the parable of the talents and it never hit home as much as it did when he talked about it.

It seems many Christians put their heads in the dirt when it comes to money matters as though it were some type of evil. But money isn't the problem, it's the love of money that's the problem, basically meaning allowing money to control you instead of you controlling or having master of it. This man continued to talk about the parable of the talents and how it is good to be wise in matters of money and that it's not wrong to want to invest and grow what you have both for the Kingdom and for a legacy for your prodigy. It made sense in a way that inspired me.

And while I don't intend on joining the LDS church anytime soon [ever], I was left with a renewed perspective that was really really refreshing. Also his work ethic was something to note as well in addition to his polite genuine manner. He was a true testiment to what he believed. I can only hope all of us are at least that much so.

One can say the same of "good living" atheists, Hindus, Wiccans, or whatever -ism one can imagine. It doesn't make one a Christian, and it certainly does not make one "good" in the sight of God. I'm a Christian, and I am not good in the sight of God by my own works! The problem with Mormonism is that it denies the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, and it takes all things that are spiritual and gives them a materialistic bent. (Mind you, this is human nature, and not confined to Mormonism only. It exists plenty enough in Christians too.) Whether it is Celestial Marriage, or strange rituals to get into heaven, or their over-emphasis on material success, all of these things make physical what is taught in the scriptures to be spiritual. While there are many Mormons who are not as corrupt as their leaders, there is indeed a dark side to that religion. Speak to Mormon "apostates" in Utah, and many of them will tell you that the LDS authorities promote shunning for ex-Mormons. The same is true for Christian churches, who I have heard personal stories of how difficult it is to find a contractor to do the most basic work. Righteousness is not something that is skin deep, but is something that can only be seen in the heart of a man.
 
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fatboys

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One can say the same of "good living" atheists, Hindus, Wiccans, or whatever -ism one can imagine. It doesn't make one a Christian, and it certainly does not make one "good" in the sight of God. I'm a Christian, and I am not good in the sight of God by my own works! The problem with Mormonism is that it denies the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, and it takes all things that are spiritual and gives them a materialistic bent. (Mind you, this is human nature, and not confined to Mormonism only. It exists plenty enough in Christians too.) Whether it is Celestial Marriage, or strange rituals to get into heaven, or their over-emphasis on material success, all of these things make physical what is taught in the scriptures to be spiritual. While there are many Mormons who are not as corrupt as their leaders, there is indeed a dark side to that religion. Speak to Mormon "apostates" in Utah, and many of them will tell you that the LDS authorities promote shunning for ex-Mormons. The same is true for Christian churches, who I have heard personal stories of how difficult it is to find a contractor to do the most basic work. Righteousness is not something that is skin deep, but is something that can only be seen in the heart of a man.

This was not his experience. Are there bad mormons you bet. Are there idiots that believe mormons can do nothing right who post on mainstream christian forums? You bet. Your bigotry is so telling. There are ex mormons who leave and do not have the bad experiences that you claim is the dark side. Don't you get it? The same can be said of ex evangelicals or buddist or athiests.
 
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fatboys

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Mormonism historically has not considered itself Christian. Statements to the contrary are all a more recent phenomena.

Check out these quotes:

"Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the Church of the Lamb of God and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to that great church; which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth." (The Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10)

"Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." (Documentary History of the Church, Introduction, xl)

"I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian Churches), for they were all wrong...that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight" (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

"...orthodox Christian views of God are Pagan rather than Christian." (Mormon Doctrine of Deity by B.H. Roberts, p.116)

"...the God whom the 'Christians' worship is a being of their own creation..." (Apostle Charles W. Penrose, JD 23:243)

"The Christian world, so called, are heathens as to their knowledge of the salvation of God." (Brigham Young, JD 8:171)

"We may very properly say that the sectarian world do not know anything correctly, so far as pertains to salvation. Ask them where heaven is?- where they are going to when they die?-where Paradise is! -and there is not a priest in the world that can answer your questions. Ask them what kind of a being our Heavenly Father is, and they cannot tell you so much as Balaam's ass told him. They are more ignorant than children." (Brigham Young, JD 5:229).

"The Christian world, I discovered, was like the captain and crew of a vessel on the ocean without a compass, and tossed to and fro whithersoever the wind listed to blow them. When the light came to me, I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness." (Brigham Young, JD 5:73).

"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute best." (John Taylor, JD 13:225)

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing...Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God." (John Taylor, JI) 13:225)

"Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.177)

"I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true." (Joseph Smith, DHC 1:6)

"I spoke of the impropriety of turning away from the truth, and going after a people so destitute of righteousness as the Methodists." (Joseph Smith, DHC 2:319)

"...brother Joseph B. Nobles once told a Methodist priest, after hearing him describe his god, that the god they worshiped was the "Mormon's" Devil-a being without a body, whereas our God has a body, parts and passions." (Brigham Young, JD 5:331)

"...brother Heber C. Kimball was beset by a number of Baptist priests who had been attending a conference. He read them all down out of the New Testament....With regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world." (Brigham Young, JD 8:199).

"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church, is the great corrupt, ecclesiastical power, represented by great Babylon...." (Orson Pratt, Orson Pratt, Writings of an Apostle,"Divine Authenticity," no.6, p.84).

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels." (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60)

"And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act." (Orson Pratt, OP-WA, "The Kingdom of God," no.2, p.6)

"...all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who recieves baptism or the Lord's supper from their hands will highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt people." (Orson Pratt, The Seer, pg. 255)

"...the great apostate church as the anti-christ...This great antichrist...is the church of the devil." (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine p.40)

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "harlot of Babylon" whom the lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness." (Pratt, The Seer, p.255)

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth." (Brigham Young, JD 6:176)

"Evil spirits control much of the so-called religious worship in the world; for instance, the great creeds of Christendom were formulated so as to conform to their whispered promptings." (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.246)

"After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christiandom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common orgin. They belong to Babylon." (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, p.324)

Finally, note the views of Mormon Prophet Brigham Young regarding the Christian view of Jesus Christ:

"You may hear the divines of the day extol the character of the Saviour, undertake to exhibit his true character before the people, and give an account of his origin...I have frequently thought of mules, which you know are half horse and half ass, when reflecting upon the representations made by those divines. I have heard sectarian priests undertake to tell the character of the Son of God, and they make him half of one species and half of another, and I could not avoid thinking at once of the mule, which is the most hateful creature that ever was made, I believe. You will excuse me, but I have thus thought many a time" (Journal of Discourses 4:217).

---

There is no question that Mormonism and Christianity are utterly opposed, not just in doctrine and beliefs, but even in attitude.

Lets see, they had been killed, driven from their homes in the dead of winter in which many did not survive, their lands and properties taken from them. All in the name of Jesus. I think their opinions of Christianity during that time was because they did not have the same experience from Christians than the OP did from mormons. Why do you think they came to the desert to live? So they would not be driven from their homes again, which the United States did send an army to put down a rumored uprising of mormons. Which was false. Early members of the church did nothing to deserve being murdered to which there was no one put in jail. Mormon did nothing to deserve to have a extermination order making it legal to kill mormons by a United States governor of Missouri, which was finally taken off the books in 1976. I believe that early church leaders were pretty ticked off at the so called Christian community that spit upon their Constitutional rights to believe what they wanted to believe as a religion. And you guys still don't let us believe what we want to believe. All in the name of Jesus.
 
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Enkil

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This was not his experience. Are there bad mormons you bet. Are there idiots that believe mormons can do nothing right who post on mainstream christian forums? You bet. Your bigotry is so telling. There are ex mormons who leave and do not have the bad experiences that you claim is the dark side. Don't you get it? The same can be said of ex evangelicals or buddist or athiests.

I was pointing out the truth. There are many ex-Mormons who have suffered due to the practice of shunning, and it is not bigotry to point out that the LDS historically has not considered itself Christian, but rather as having the "restored Gospel" that was lost by the alleged apostate church. Mormonism is not another denomination of Christianity, and the practices of its leadership are indeed dark and, at times, quite malicious for those who do not fit in.

"Are Mormons required to "shun" an apostate?"

You will not find any specific instruction in print and it will be equally hard to find anyone in a significant position of leadership authority with the Church to admit that to be a requirement of the Church. However, whether or not someone "sympathizes with any apostates" is a specific matter of mandatory inquiry into the eligibility for attendance in Mormon temples based on "worthiness" restrictions. I, personally, have been informed by a former Mormon friend that I was no longer welcome as a guest in their home and that they had been informed that their name had been brought to the attention of the local Mormon "High Council" on charges of "sympathizing with an apostate".

From Park Romney, cousin of Mitt Romney: Are Mormons required to "shun" an apostate?

forestpal
Re: Being shunned common?
I think shunning is the norm, and to be expected. Let me tell you why:

A Mormon must meet certain requirements in order to gain entrance into the holy temple, culminating in a bishop's interview and a temple recommend. During the bishop's interview, this question is asked of the member, "Do you associate with apostates, or apostate groups?" The answer to this question must be "no", or the member will fail the interview. I always lied to this question, because my closest friends were always non-Mormons--whole groups of them!

The elitist Mormons are taught that a prophet of God said that the Mormon church is "The only True Church," and that all other churches are "wrong."

The current Mormon prophet says that apostates are lazy, offended, and wicked.

Any "snobbery" you feel is absolutely REAL. It is not you, it is them. Please don't take this personally. We have all been shunned.

Being shunned common? | Recovery from Mormonism

Read the link for more stories by ex-Mormon posters and LDS investigators.

This is not to say that ALL Mormons practice such things, but it is to point out that the culture pushed down by the authorities of the LDS is NOT good.
 
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JRSut1000

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I guess my whole point in saying this is 'you cant judge a book by its cover'. So many people get a bad stigma because of generalities that occur. For instance, the ideas that Mormons are zealous polygs who only go door to door. Well, first of all, not all Mormons are polygamists. In fact, very few. And there is obviously so much more to Mormons as a group than what we typically know. But if you take it even further, everyone in any group is always an individual with unique talents and perspectives.

I'm not saying this to condone the Mormon doctrine or even the denomination, but I am saying that as a whole, people are people and we should get to know everybody. Jesus got to know everybody. Many times He didn't condone what they did, their lifestyle, or even the way they viewed the world (such as the Pharisees). But He did approach people, He was real with people, He didn't avoid anyone.

Yes, this man I met is of a faith that I do not agree with personally. But even so, it was fascinating getting to know more about who he was and what he was all about. And yes, his perspective on some things actually challenged my own and that's not a terrible thing. I was impressed by him as a person and his worldview (even though I didn't agree with many aspects when it came to doctrine) and was left refreshed. Why? Because God made him and gave him a mind and literal talents and he's using them, which is more to say than a lot of people especially in mainstream Christianity.

P.S. My point isn't to condone Mormonism as a whole or to discuss cultlike practices (such as shunning). We can always make a new thread for that, that's fine. Just wanted to share my observations. I am already aware of downfalls in the LDS church, no worries about me converting or anything.
 
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Enkil

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Lets see, they had been killed, driven from their homes in the dead of winter in which many did not survive, their lands and properties taken from them. All in the name of Jesus. I think their opinions of Christianity during that time was because they did not have the same experience from Christians than the OP did from mormons.

The picture is far more complicated than that! Also, many of these statements were made before any such persecution. It is not to say that violence by ANYONE is good, but this is not a history of persecution as in the early days of Christianity:

"Arrogance on the part of the Mormon settlers certainly did not help the situation. As Allen and Leonard write,

"The Saints themselves may not have been totally without blame in the matter. The feelings of the Missourians, even though misplaced, were undoubtedly intensified by the rhetoric of the gathering itself. They were quick to listen to the boasting of a few overzealous Saints who too-loudly declared a divine right to the land. As enthusiastic millennialists, they proclaimed that the time of the gentiles was short, and they were perhaps too quick to quote the revelation that said that 'the Lord willeth that the disciples and the children of men should open their hearts, even to purchase this whole region of country, as soon as time will permit" (The Story of the Latter-day Saints, p. 83).

Smith's leadership didn't help ease the tension. For instance, when First Counselor Sidney Rigdon gave a fiery "Fourth of July Oration" (1838) that threatened the state of Missouri with what he called a "war of extermination," Smith made this speech into a pamphlet. Also adding to the Missourians distress were the rumors of Mormon "Danites," a secret band of Mormon hit men known to intimidate non-Mormon "Gentiles" and LDS dissenters.

The acts of violence brought against the Mormon settlers and the fact that the Mormons felt they would not receive proper redress compelled them to retaliate. Writes LeSueur,

"Although Mormon military action was generally initiated in response to reports of violence, the Mormons tended to overreact and in some instances retaliated against innocent citizens. Their perception of themselves as the chosen people, their absolute confidence in their leaders, and their determination not to be driven out led Mormon soldiers to commit numerous crimes. The Mormons had many friends among the Missourians, but their military operations undercut their support in the non-Mormon community" (The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri, p.4).

LeSueur believes much of the blame for the "plundering and burning committed by Mormon soldiers in Daviess County" can be laid at the feet of Joseph Smith himself.

I have heard Latter-day Saints justify these actions by saying the frustrations experienced by the Saints would seem to warrant retaliation. While I may sympathize with their desire to "respond in kind," we must keep in mind that in doing so the moral high ground is lost. Once you lower yourself to the level of your enemy, you can no longer claim to be guiltless in the situation. This, unfortunately, is what many Mormons do.

Attempts to get along in Missouri proved fruitless. Both sides blamed the other, and each claimed to be the defender rather than the aggressor. The violence came to a head in late 1838 when a group of Missouri militia, led by Captain Samuel Bogart, moved through Ray County disarming Mormon settlers and ordering them to leave. Reports circulated among the Mormons that Bogart's men had burned and plundered several Mormon homes in their two-day march. Though there is no evidence to support this claim, LeSueur writes that it was readily believed by Mormon leaders (p.133).

On October 24, two Mormon spies were captured by Bogart's men and taken to their camp on Crooked River. In response, a band of over 50 Mormons led by LDS Apostle David Patten engaged in a firefight with Bogart's men. When the Mormons drew their swords and charged the camp, the militia fled, leaving one dead and another man wounded. Patten himself was mortally wounded in the battle. Two Mormon soldiers, coming upon the wounded and unconscious militiaman by the name of Samuel Tarwater, mercilessly mutilated the man's face with their swords and left him for dead.

When listing the atrocities brought against the LDS people in Missouri, the massacre at Haun's Mill always seems to come to the forefront. Speaking of the persecution faced by Mormons in the past, LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote:

"We have staggered under the iron fist of persecution during our whole latter-day history, and we know that hatred and ill will and death will continue to be spewed out upon us until the coming end of the world. We have been driven and scourged and slain; the blood of our prophets stains Illinois; at Haun's Mill the innocent blood of the martyrs for truth cries unto the Lord of Hosts; and on frozen and desolate hills, across half a continent, lie the lonely graves of suffering saints who chose death in preference to the creeds of compulsion of a decadent Christendom" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, pp. 656-657).

McConkie's dramatic rhetoric fails to take into account the fact that the Haun's Mill massacre took place just one week after the battle of Crooked River. Quinn writes:

"A generally unacknowledged dimension of both the extermination order and the Haun's Mill massacre, however, is that they resulted from Mormon actions in the Battle of Crooked River. Knowingly or not, Mormons had attacked state troops, and this had a cascade effect… upon receiving news of the injuries and death of state troops at Crooked River, Governor Boggs immediately drafted his extermination order on 27 October 1838 because the Mormons 'have made war upon the people of this state.' Worse, the killing of one Missourian and mutilation of another while he was defenseless at Crooked River led to the mad-dog revenge by Missourians in the slaughter at Haun's Mill" (Origins of Power, p.100)."

Violence in Early Mormonism - Was It All Unjust Persecution? | Mormonism Research Ministry

Even Joseph Smith's "martyrdom" can't really be described as such. Dissident Mormons started the Nauvoo Expositor accusing Smith of systematic abuses of women, amongst many other crimes. Smith, in retaliation, had their printing press burned illegally by an angry mob. This action directly led to his eventual arrest, and his death in jail by another angry mob as he fired back with his pistol in vain.

This is not Stephen the Martyr being stoned to death for confessing Jesus! It's human folly, a circle of violence, a life that is a walking shadow, full of sound and fury signifying nothing.
 
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I guess the observation I want to make is this:

I used to think Mormoms were this weird cult group whose only aim was to convert other people.

They are expected to do their utmost to get people to join their church.

Many LDS/Mormons are kind, conscientious people. Many non-LDS are kind, conscientious people. Some LDS are less than honest and can even be despicable people. Some non-LDS are less than honest and despicable people.

Read about these people:

Jason Derek Brown, charged with first-degree murder and armed robbery, on Most Wanted list

Shawn Merriman, the Mormon Madoff

Michael Marin, ex-Wall Street banker

Mark Hofmann, forger and murderer

R. Dean Udy and son Cameron Udy, Ponzi scheme

Darren Lee Shanks

Claud R. Koerber.(aka Rick Koerber)...
 
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Rescued One

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Because God made him and gave him a mind and literal talents and he's using them, which is more to say than a lot of people especially in mainstream Christianity.

Who in mainstream Christianity is a Christian and who isn't? How do you know?
 
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Tigger45

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I have lived most of my life in Utah and know the mormon culture very well. First to be fair their are some who are good and some who are bad. But as a culture especially when they have a majority they are subtley clickish. A few examples are like at work they will openly talk about their religion knowing full well you're not mormon but if you talk about your's you will be subtley ostracized. You won't be part of the "in crowd". Once they realize you can't be evangelized they will only be moderatly friendly. A few will rise above this behavior and openly befriend you. The litmus test is if they act differently when other mormons are around or not. Now when I was young they invited me to their youth group called mutual. After attending a few times they asked if the missionaries could come to my house and give their lessons. After completing the lessons they asked if I wanted to be baptized. I declind thinking it just didn't feel right. Well low and behold no more mormon friends or invites to mutual. Later in life when I had young kids the missionaries came to my house wanting to teach their gospel. Well I respectfully challanged their doctines and low and behold the kids in the neighborhood and at school could no longer play with my kids. That's messed up. Leave the kids out of it. Historically different sects and cultures have done this to each other so I'm not saying it's limited to mormons but don't be fouled by the clean cut looks. Also be careful when discussing spiritual truths with them because they will only speak about the things that sound appealing but is not until you get well involved and committed into the church do you start hearing about the nonbiblical teachings.
 
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Rescued One

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I have lived most of my life in Utah and know the mormon culture very well. First to be fair their are some who are good and some who are bad. But as a culture especially when they have a majority they are subtley clickish. A few examples are like at work they will openly talk about their religion knowing full well you're not mormon but if you talk about your's you will be subtley ostracized. You won't be part of the "in crowd". Once they realize you can't be evangelized they will only be moderatly friendly. A few will rise above this behavior and openly befriend you. The litmus test is if they act differently when other mormons are around or not. Now when I was young they invited me to their youth group called mutual. After attending a few times they asked if the missionaries could come to my house and give their lessons. After completing the lessons they asked if I wanted to be baptized. I declind thinking it just didn't feel right. Well low and behold no more mormon friends or invites to mutual. Later in life when I had young kids the missionaries came to my house wanting to teach their gospel. Well I respectfully challanged their doctines and low and behold the kids in the neighborhood and at school could no longer play with my kids. That's messed up. Leave the kids out of it. Historically different sects and cultures have done this to each other so I'm not saying it's limited to mormons but don't be fouled by the clean cut looks. Also be careful when discussing spiritual truths with them because they will only speak about the things that sound appealing but is not until you get well involved and committed into the church do you start hearing about the nonbiblical teachings.

As an ex-Mormon, I can verify what you are saying, and I have never been to Utah.
 
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fatboys

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I was pointing out the truth. There are many ex-Mormons who have suffered due to the practice of shunning, and it is not bigotry to point out that the LDS historically has not considered itself Christian, but rather as having the "restored Gospel" that was lost by the alleged apostate church. Mormonism is not another denomination of Christianity, and the practices of its leadership are indeed dark and, at times, quite malicious for those who do not fit in.

"Are Mormons required to "shun" an apostate?"

You will not find any specific instruction in print and it will be equally hard to find anyone in a significant position of leadership authority with the Church to admit that to be a requirement of the Church. However, whether or not someone "sympathizes with any apostates" is a specific matter of mandatory inquiry into the eligibility for attendance in Mormon temples based on "worthiness" restrictions. I, personally, have been informed by a former Mormon friend that I was no longer welcome as a guest in their home and that they had been informed that their name had been brought to the attention of the local Mormon "High Council" on charges of "sympathizing with an apostate".

From Park Romney, cousin of Mitt Romney: Are Mormons required to "shun" an apostate?

forestpal
Re: Being shunned common?
I think shunning is the norm, and to be expected. Let me tell you why:

A Mormon must meet certain requirements in order to gain entrance into the holy temple, culminating in a bishop's interview and a temple recommend. During the bishop's interview, this question is asked of the member, "Do you associate with apostates, or apostate groups?" The answer to this question must be "no", or the member will fail the interview. I always lied to this question, because my closest friends were always non-Mormons--whole groups of them!

The elitist Mormons are taught that a prophet of God said that the Mormon church is "The only True Church," and that all other churches are "wrong."

The current Mormon prophet says that apostates are lazy, offended, and wicked.

Any "snobbery" you feel is absolutely REAL. It is not you, it is them. Please don't take this personally. We have all been shunned.

Being shunned common? | Recovery from Mormonism

Read the link for more stories by ex-Mormon posters and LDS investigators.

This is not to say that ALL Mormons practice such things, but it is to point out that the culture pushed down by the authorities of the LDS is NOT good.

It is sad to say that there are some mormons who do this. I don't understand it. It is not what the church teaches. I have had non mormon friends who I have known for years and have had regular invites to their homes and visa versa. I do think that some ex mormons look for things that are not their. My best friends wife left the church and although she is friendly, she never comes to anything of the church even if their children are participating in progams. I had a co worker that was exed, and he is the one that got me into apologetics, he cut himself off of any activity dealing with the church. If someone said something that he did not like he would blow up about it and make a mountain out of a mole hill. I tried to explain to him that most people don't say things to offend. No one has the power to offend. If you want to look at it as an offence then have the right as well. But I doubt that the intent was to offend.
 
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Norah63

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One thing I have found, is that over on the LDS forum , I have never been shunned or spoken to unkindly. Yet there's some "christian" forums that won't allow me to post even though I profess Jesus as my Lord and savior. Like Soulgazer said, we can be weird at times. If a person says they love Jesus, that's how I accept them.
I have seen it on another's posts the saying, "When you get to heaven don't stop and stare, you'll be surprised at who you will see there".
 
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