Am I dead wrong when it comes to death and life?

A Devil's Advocate

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It is commonly understood that before the fall, there was no death. But, is this actually true? And when death entered the world, was it a physical death, or a spiritual death?

When Adam was placed into the Garden of Eden, he was to work it and take care of it. This may seem trivial but it's actually kind of important. Adam was also told that among all the trees in the garden, he was free to eat from them all including the tree of life, also important. However, there was one tree he was commanded not to eat from, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Along with this commandment, Adam was warned that in the day he eats from it he will certainly die (foreshadowing possibly?). At this time Adam was also brought all the birds, wild animals, and livestock to name. Again, also important.

Did Adam actually die when he ate from the forbidden tree? He did live to be 930 years of age. Was God's warning just a simple stretch of the truth when he said "in the day you eat of it you will certainly die?" Or, Did God actually mean what he said?

Romans 5:12 is commonly used to show us that death first entered the world when Adam sinned. This is true, obviously, but I would argue that it's not in the way most of us have been made to believe. When Adam ate from the tree, he most certainly did die, but it was a spiritual death. In both Col 2:13 and Eph 2:5 we are told that while we were dead in our sins and transgressions, God made us alive. It seem to me it would be extremely difficult to be sinning and transgressing if we are physically dead. When God makes us alive, are we not already alive? What life is he referring to? It is spiritual death and spiritual life that is being referred to here.

Man was created in the image and likeness of God. I would argue that this image is based on the fact that God is revealed to us in three persons. So it stands to reason that our image would also be in three parts. Body, soul, and spirit. There is lots more to say on this, but I'll leave that for another thread. Now since God is spirit, his relationship with us would be a spiritual relationship. In other words, he would relate to us through our spirit. When Adam sinned he spiritually died and this resulted in a separation from God. Not even God can have a relationship with someone who is dead. What Adam's sin didn't do is bring about physical death.

Physical death had to have already been a part of God's creation. Why? Remember when I mentioned how Adam was told to work the ground and care for the garden? This would assume keeping plant life under control. To prune a tree or plant would be to bring death to the part you cut off. Working the ground would inevitably kill many smaller insects and bugs living in the ground. When livestock is mentioned, and maybe this is a stretch on my part, but that could possibly assume meat? When fruit was consumed, was the fruit not already dying or dead once it was plucked from the tree? Also, God would not have warned Adam of certain death from eating of the forbidden tree if Adam would've had no clue what death was (With this I believe both Adam and Eve understood physical death, but did not have any realization of spiritual death. Hence why Satan was able to convince Eve to eat). Then the tree of life, what was the point if death was not already a part of God's creation? Granted, there had not yet been a human death, but death is death regardless of what dies. And, Genesis 3:22. This could only refer to physical life. An act of love on God's part, not allowing man to live forever in a fallen state, separated from God.

This spiritual death however, was not the result of sin in the sense that you pushing someone out a 50 story window results in their death. Rather, it is in the sense that the punishment you will receive for pushing that person out the window is death. Spiritual death was the punishment that God placed on sin. When Adam committed that sin, all man was in Adam. Therefore all man is guilty of that vary sin. Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people because all sinned. Rom 5:15, ...for if the many died by the trespass of one man... Gen 5:3 When Adam was 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image... How is this now different from the image of God? Adam and Eve are both spiritually dead. Everyone born since has come into the world already spiritually dead, separated from God. Except for Jesus, of course, who was of a virgin birth. Otherwise, he too would have been in our same condition, guilty of Adam's sin and therefore not an acceptable sacrifice for our sins.

I can already hear the arguments now, that we are guilty of our own sins, not Adam's. Let me ask you this then... When Adam sinned he spiritually died. That was the punishment for his sin. What happened the second or third time Adam sinned? Since we all come into the world already spiritually dead, like begets like, what happens when we sin? I am speaking only in reference to our relationship with God, not with our neighbour. The answer is nothing happens. The punishment of death has already taken place. We are already dead and separated from God. So, the important question then becomes, is the problem that we are sinners in need of forgiveness, or are we in need of life as a result of Adam's sin?

When Jesus died for the sins of the world, this satisfied God's judgment on sin. As a result, sin will no longer bring death to those who are in Christ. Yes, we still sin, but there is no longer the punishment of death. In accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you receive new life. You are spiritually reborn. And this life is now eternal, since the only thing that could take it away has been dwelt with. Should you remain an unbeliever, although your sins have already been forgiven (read my post "A challenge to read scripture in the light of what I said"), you still remain spiritually dead and separated from God as a result.
 

Neogaia777

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@A Devil's Advocate

The relationship/bond/connection with God the Holy Spirit is what gives both physical eternal life and spiritual eternal life, and when Adam (and Eve) originally sinned they lost both, although physically not immediately, etc. When they sinned, they immediately lost that bond with the Spirit that gives spiritual eternal life, since God could not remain permanently with a body of form that had sinned, or that was now sinful, etc, and this was the rest of humanities predicament in the OT, but that was made possible again by Jesus in the NT by taking care of that predicament completely, with just a few requirements, etc, and this is the now good news of the NC, etc. Sin no longer preventing that connection, means God the Holy Spirit can now dwell in us again now, and this time irregardless of sin, but is still up to the Spirit's choosing, or dictating terms to the individual each individually, etc. This means eternal life spiritually is now again available now, etc, or that you no longer have to die spiritually because of sin anymore now, if God the Spirit so chooses to dwell with you or inside of you regardless, etc, since it is that, that makes your spirit immortal, or gives spiritual eternal life to you spiritually, etc. Physical death will be resolved in time, or when Jesus comes back, but until then, we still die physically, etc.

Adam and Eve probably had some idea of what some death was, since not everything was immortal in the Garden of Eden, etc, but I still think it was quite a shock to them the first time they saw a mammal with blood in it die physically, as they were not originally made that way, etc, and just to remind you, the very first time they actually saw this or experienced this was when God Himself slaughtered and animal or two to cover up their now being naked, or realizing they were naked, etc, which I think was quite a shock to them, but was also one of the very first acts of God that showed His love toward sinful creatures, and they now learned some of their very first lessons now, of how things (creatures much more like them) were now having to die now, or were now learning the lessons now, in how a lot of blood (in creatures much more like them) was now having to be shed now because of it, etc, and they would now probably start to learn now, the full entirety of what they did, only in stages now from there possibly, etc, (Cain killing Abel next, etc) (first human murder they experienced or saw, and first human death, etc) (and that, of one of their own children that Eve gave birth to, etc) (which was also a very new, first experience for them since having to leave the Garden of Eden because of their sin permanently, etc).

We share in Adam and Eve's sin because we would have done/still would do the same, and there is no further mystery to that really, etc.

Our complete sinful state will not be fully resolved until we get to go to Heaven, or when Jesus comes back to set up a Kingdom on this earth that will last until the very end of this whole entire earth's age, etc.

God Bless.
 
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d taylor

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Well it is about life and not about sin. A person born after Adam is born without The Life of God. So the only way to receive the free gift of The Life of God (Eternal Life) is to believe in Jesus, that is to believe Jesus is the resurrection and the life, the only begotten Son of God/The Messiah/Christ from the prophecies of The Tanakh.

A person believes this about Jesus they immediately at the moment of belief in Jesus, cross over from death to life and become a permanent born again child of God
 
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A Devil's Advocate

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A little more insight on the idea of death existing before the fall.

Death is never presented as being evil by nature. It may be the result of an evil, but death itself is not evil. If death was an evil, then it could never be used in the forgiving of sins as you would just be exchanging one evil for another. So then, does this mean evil is good by nature? This I do not know. Is it simply neutral being neither good or evil? Is it even possible for something to be of neither good or evil? Again, I don't know. But, what I do know, because death isn't an evil, there is no reason to assume it couldn't have been apart of God's creation right from the start.
 
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Reasonably Sane

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I'm just going to throw this out: When it comes to Genesis and a few other places in the bible, I see it more as poetry or, at the very least, a writing style different from what we are used to today. I am reticent to take any of it literally. The reason is simple: Often the problem is not what the bible says, but how we interpret it. A simple example: I believe it is quite probable that the "tree of the knowledge of good and bad" was just a normal tree like all the others. e.g. think of it as a specific pear tree in a small orchard of pear trees. And when they finally did eat of it, they had understanding of a sort they had never had before - for the first time in their life, they disobeyed God. That simple realization can be life changing. It can explain the sudden realization they were naked, or at least what it was trying to communicate. For the first time in their life they fully "took ownership" of the knowledge and understanding of the difference between good and bad*.

And so often the original languages use words that in english are translated as "eternal", "forever", etc. when it is clear that is not really what they meant. It would be me saying, at a friend's funeral that he was "forever saying such and such". Except everyone in the room knows I did not literally mean "forever".

As I age and continue to read the bible and apply its lessons to my life, I find I'm focusing more on the key point of various verses and chapters, rather than the literal meaning of some phrases. I don't honestly believe the world is only 6,000 years old, but I think the age of man just might be.

*I use the word "bad" instead of "evil" because usually, in the bible, that is all it means. That's why it can even say that God did "evil". That is, from the perspective of someone got "smited", it was a bad thing - and God did it to them. But it was not "evil" in the way most people interpret the word.
 
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Reasonably Sane

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Romans 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the [a]gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Yep. Put that together with John 3:16 and the message is pretty darned clear.
 
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A Devil's Advocate

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Where did you hear or come up with this idea? What religious or other persuasion ?

Note instead what God Himself Says Directly:
King James Version 26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Hello Aaron112. I hope your day was a pleasant one.

After giving your response some thought, I think it may be in our understanding of what evil is that we differ on. My understanding of evil is that it's the absence of what should be there. The absence of good would be considered evil. A plate of steel with half of it being rusted away is a great analogy. The rust would be the absence of what should be there, that being the steel. Furthermore, if evil is the absence of what should be there, then logically, nothing can be pure evil. If the steel plate rusts completely away, then the rust would rust itself out of existence. Another aspect of evil is that evil is only seen in our behaviour, not in creation. Nothing created is evil. Also, evil is only recognized when compared against God's character. God's character is good, truthful, unchanging, and the moral standard by which the world is judged. It's like when someone makes the comment that world is getting better or worse. How are they to recognize this unless they have a moral standard greater than the world to compare the world to? Without this moral standard we have nothing from which to distinguish good from evil.

In the verse you quote from 1 Cor 15:26 Paul says that death is an enemy, but he doesn't say it's an evil. There is a difference. Romans 5:10 states that we too were also once enemies. But we are not evil. We may do evil (and this may or may not result in death), but we are not evil. God did not create anything that wasn't good, us included. Paul says in Philippians 1:21 that for him to live is Christ and to die is gain. Where is the gain if dying is considered an evil?. When a loved one dies of old age, or heaven forbid, something that takes their life early, have they committed an evil act by dying?
When Paul spoke of death as the last enemy to be destroyed, he was talking about the end when Christ will hand the kingdom over to God. But, before doing so he must first destroy all dominion, authority and power. Currently, death has dominion over the earth since there is no escaping it.... kind of like taxes.
 
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A Devil's Advocate

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If, when man sinned and spiritually died, he was suddenly now an evil wicked creature, why did Jesus die to pay for the penalty(wages) of sin (which brought spiritual death) when it is man himself, not his actions, that is the bigger evil wicked problem? Since the actions of man are the lesser problem, and it is man himself that is the bigger problem, then did Jesus mess up by dying for the wrong thing? Of course not. This is obviously nonsense. The fact that we are capable of doing evil, does not make us evil. The bible teaches that we are children of God, but the reality is, we still sin. So, am I a child of God, or am I a sinner? Or..... am I a child of God who still falls into sin?

That verse is referring to the kind of behaviour that comes, naturally, out of a sinful nature, Romans 7:17-19. The sinful nature does not seek God or the ways of God. It seeks, instead, to fulfill the desires of the flesh. It is not our flesh that makes us man. It is our soul (our mind, will, and emotions... "I am aware that I exist!") that makes us man, Gen 2:7. The flesh will return to dust from whence it came, but our soul does not suddenly end. The will of our soul is to fulfill the desires of our flesh since our spirit, which desires the things of God, is dead. When our spirit is reborn, then suddenly we have the desire for the things of God.
 
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A Devil's Advocate

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Aaron112, you had asked me if there was a source for my many strange and unusual ideas? It was getting late so I thought I would respond tomorrow. However, I can't seem to sleep so I decided to take the opportunity to respond. Except now, at the time I'm writing this, I no longer see your question? But, like I said I can't sleep so I'll respond anyways.

I'm not sure which ideas you are referring to specifically. Spiritual death? Having a body, soul, and spirit? (Both of these I mention in my original post so I wont touch on these). Or, are you wondering where I get the idea about the soul's will being for the desires of the flesh vs the spirits desire for the things of God? Because I haven't touched on this, I will explain this one. Let me know more specifically after, should you want to.

The part about what the will desires I get from Genesis. When God put man in the garden, man's desire was only for the things of God. God laid out what he wanted of man, and man had no reason to do or think otherwise. Enter Satan. When Satan went to assimilate Eve into the collective, the only reason he succeeded was because fleshly desires were an original part of man's creation. Had they not been, Satan would've had nothing to work with. We see this in Gen 3:6.
Where Satan deceived Eve was not in the fact that she wouldn't die. Satan would have been referring to physical death, which Eve already had understanding of. He also didn't deceive her when he said she would become like God knowing good and evil. God confirms this in Gen 3:22. Where Satan deceived Eve was in taking her attention off of God and and placing it on herself. He made it about her (man). The result, after eating from the tree, was spiritual death. So, no longer was there any desire for the things of God, but simply the desires of the flesh.

This deception/lie is no less potent today as it was back then. Society is so much about looking out for one's self. "I matter! I'm important! It's all about me!" Christianity in not about me, myself, or I. When Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was, he replied that it was to love God. The second was just like it, to love your neighbour. Nowhere do we see self being the focus. Love is selfless. A spouse would easily die for their partener just as a parent would easily die for their child. But, to die for a neighbour, pfft, yah not likely. I'm far more important than my neighbour. Yet, Christ did it for us when we were still his enemies none the less.
 
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A Devil's Advocate

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Good day Aaron.
To start, I want to first say that much of what I believe, I am not dogmatic on. The wiser I become with age, the more apparent it becomes how little I really know. Some of what I have learned (I am speaking with regards to Christianity) I have discovered through others. If it sat right with my spirit and tested true with scripture, then I hold to it. Much more of what I've learned has been personal revelation through time spent in God's word and untold amounts of time meditating on God's word. The things I have learned through scripture I hold to until I either receive clearer revelation or someone is able to clearly show me my misinterpretation. And finally, there is common sense. Part of discernment comes through using some simple common sense.
Your conclusion that my understanding of evil is not scriptural, I would currently disagree with.

You say that some pagan cultures had that idea long before Jesus lived on the earth. Is truth determined to be true or not based on who it is that teaches it? Unbelievers, Pagans, Gentiles... even liberals understand murder to be wrong. Does that make it a false understanding because they don't follow God?
The way I understand it.... When God created man, He saw what he had created and it was very good. Man is a combination of body, soul, and spirit. He was created to be in relationship with God. Take a light bulb, for example. A light bulb is complete in and of itself. But, without electricity running through it the light bulb is unable to function in the manner it was created to function. The same is true for man. Although man is complete in and of himself, without God he cannot function in the manner he was created by God to function (I am speaking on the moral aspect of man). When Adam disobeyed God, he had acted of his own volition. A decision that was void of God (God asking Adam if he had eaten from the tree was a brilliant way to reveal this). What should have been there, present in Adam's decision, was God. But, since He wasn't, sin was there. Sin resulted in spiritual death, and this resulted in separation from God.
 
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A Devil's Advocate

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Actually, yes. THe source is as important as the content in most if not all cases.
If someone learns from a bad tree, the results are bad fruit. It cannot be good fruit.
Does that not then make truth relative? Relative to whom is speaking it? Truth has to be the unchanging factor, the absolute from which everything else is able to be known. If a bad tree tells you God is love and a good tree tells you God is love, is not the truth still true regardless of who said it?
 
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Neogaia777

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Does that not then make truth relative? Relative to whom is speaking it? Truth has to be the unchanging factor, the absolute from which everything else is able to be known. If a bad tree tells you God is love and a good tree tells you God is love, is not the truth still true regardless of who said it?
Check the whole fruit very, very carefully, etc.

They'll often say "Well, this is most often the truth, or is right/wrong, but...?"

And it's all the "but's" and exceptions they make that you have to check very, very carefully, etc.

Sometimes some exceptions can be right, and then sometimes some can be wrong, to "very, very wrong" sometimes, etc.

You have to become an expert fruit inspector if you really want to know the truth, etc.

God Bless.
 
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A Devil's Advocate

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No. The evil ones will tell you anything to get you to go along with any little sin even.
God is love according to scripture, so this we can accept as being truth. This truth is unchanging regardless of who speaks it. Now if an evil one speaks it, it still remains true because it is unchanging regardless of who's mouth it comes out of. If coming out of an evil persons mouth it becomes no longer true, then it really sucks to be God who's nature is determined by the mouths of his creation.
 
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Neogaia777

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God is love according to scripture, so this we can accept as being truth. This truth is unchanging regardless of who speaks it. Now if an evil one speaks it, it still remains true because it is unchanging regardless of who's mouth it comes out of. If coming out of an evil persons mouth it becomes no longer true, then it really sucks to be God who's nature is determined by the mouths of his creation.
Problem is, that's not all they are going to say to you most of the time, etc.

And if they don't say anything else wrong, or bad, or untrue right away, then they will eventually "in time", etc, providing your still checking their fruit still at that time, etc.

Does this mean you quit associating with them immediately and forever ever again after that time?

I'll leave that up to you, etc.

But be careful not to idolize any other human being except God and God only, etc.

Some people are expert, expert decievers, and can keep you tricked or under their spell for years before you can ever realize that they are or were false/fake/untrue/wrong, etc.

God Bless.
 
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A Devil's Advocate

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I feel like I'm chasing my tale here. There is no disputing that Satan is a liar and shouldn't be listened to. He should be avoided to the best of our ability. The fact we are even able to recognize the devil as being a liar in the first place, is because truth is truth and unchanging. Now if as you say, truth is determined by who speaks it, then we cannot be sure of anything.
 
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Neogaia777

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I feel like I'm chasing my tale here. There is no disputing that Satan is a liar and shouldn't be listened to. He should be avoided to the best of our ability. The fact we are even able to recognize the devil as being a liar in the first place, is because truth is truth and unchanging. Now if as you say, truth is determined by who speaks it, then we cannot be sure of anything.
Evil people can say some things that are true sometimes, but if you are ever getting to the point of believing everything they say, without checking, etc, then you're in trouble, because you are now idolizing them, and therein lies the danger, etc. Because some people can pull the wool over your eyes for a very, very long time before you'll ever find out any kind of untruth to them, assuming you'll still even be able to see it by then, which is also the danger also, etc.

Very, very influential, and powerful, and very charismatic leaders do it the best, etc.

Say like, a future Antichrist, etc.

Many, many people were completely on board with Hitler for quite a while before they realized the truth, and by then it was almost too late, etc, and to set it back right again cost very, very many, and way, way to many lives, etc.

God Bless.
 
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A Devil's Advocate

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Again, it's not about who speaks truth or why they speak it. It's the fact that truth itself will always remain true.

Maybe this will help.
There is absolute truth. Such as the character and attributes of God. These remain true whether we exist or not.
There are also foundational truths (or First Principles) through which we are able to know our world. Such as the principle of Noncontradiction which states that two exact opposites cannot be true at the same time. Or the principle of Causality that states only being can cause being. Science is founded on these truths. These are unchanging whether one chooses to believe or deny them. Whether a non believer or a believer speaks these truths, the truth will remain true regardless.
However, there is also truth that is relative to time and culture (Ideals, if you feel this a better term). Some things that were held true in one culture at a certain point in time, may no longer be considered truth in a later time. For example, Samson had long hair and was told by God to never cut it. Then in Paul's day, for a man to have long hair was considered a disgrace.
 
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A Devil's Advocate

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"a Nazirite Vow? It can be found in Numbers 6:1-8. The Lord gave instructions to Moses to tell the sons of Israel that when a person is going to dedicate themselves to the Lord for a prescribed period of time (in Samson’s case for life), they should take a special vow called a Nazirite vow. Nazirite means a person willing to abstain. There were four parts of the vow. The first and most important was to be separate from the world and be holy to the Lord. Next, they would abstain from drinking alcohol. Number three, and important to Samson’s story, was no razor shall ever cut their hair, he shall let the locks of hair on his head grow long. I think this was primarily to visually separate them and help people, as well as themselves, to remember the vow. Lastly they would not go near to a dead person.

Typically, a person would take this vow for a specific period of time to perform some specific task. Case in point was the Apostle Paul in Acts 18:18, he took this vow in Corinth to do some task, and then he cut his hair when it was over, also the men in Jerusalem in Acts 21: 23-24 were completing the vow and cutting their hair. This was the norm"
Thank you Aaron, I stand corrected in my example.
 
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Neogaia777

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Again, it's not about who speaks truth or why they speak it. It's the fact that truth itself will always remain true.
Just don't lose your ability to discern it, etc.

Even what we think are absolute or foundational truths can change, and most certainly the more cultural ones do, etc.

And I might also add that you try to find out your own foundational or absolute moral truths ahead of everyone else also, etc, and be ready to throughly defend them, or explain them, to anyone else who might ask you about them also, etc.

Try to be ahead of the curve in that area if you can, etc.

All of our each individual lives might depend on it here in the next few years or decades or so, etc.

God Bless.
 
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✟12,785.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Thank you Aaron, I appreciate that.
My joining this site is twofold. There is a lot I have learned over my years as a christian, and I am well aware that some of my insights may challenge much of mainstream Christianity. My hope has been to share these insights for, as you stated very eloquently, observation, testing, confirming or correcting. The second reason is in hopes to help bring clarity and understanding to others who may be struggling in their areas of understanding. Ultimately though, to hopefully strengthen my faith even more, and with God's grace, the faith of others. The trick however, is to keep ego in check while remaining humble in realization that I still have so much to learn.
 
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