Am I dead wrong when it comes to death and life?

A Devil's Advocate

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Palms forehead while shaking his head

I truly hope you do not read into the scriptures what you want them to say, or use them out of context by taking a verse and running with it like you have done with what I said.

I did not say an evil person could speak truth as being a "matter of fact!" I said "if an evil one speaks it (truth)" as an example to stress the point that truth (God's word, first principles, the nature and character of God, as examples) is unchanging. They are not determined by, or relative to who speaks them.

If you think I am an evil man here to deceive, then all the power to you. Please run with it.

I say Jesus is lord and Savior... I must be evil! I rely upon Jesus and Jesus alone for salvation.... I must be evil! I do not say things you agree with... I am most definitely EVIL!!!!
 
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Placed_son

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Again, it's not about who speaks truth or why they speak it. It's the fact that truth itself will always remain true.

Maybe this will help.
There is absolute truth. Such as the character and attributes of God. These remain true whether we exist or not.
There are also foundational truths (or First Principles) through which we are able to know our world. Such as the principle of Noncontradiction which states that two exact opposites cannot be true at the same time. Or the principle of Causality that states only being can cause being. Science is founded on these truths. These are unchanging whether one chooses to believe or deny them. Whether a non believer or a believer speaks these truths, the truth will remain true regardless.
However, there is also truth that is relative to time and culture (Ideals, if you feel this a better term). Some things that were held true in one culture at a certain point in time, may no longer be considered truth in a later time. For example, Samson had long hair and was told by God to never cut it. Then in Paul's day, for a man to have long hair was considered a disgrace.

Good thoughts, your posts are interesting I might add. It's always good to think "outside the box" so to speak.
With regard to this particular post, I just would like to clarify what you're saying here. Please pardon my grammar, I'm writing this hastily as I'm pressed for time.

Absolute truth = Anyone can declare it, evil or not. No problem there.

Foundational truths (or First Principles) = I'd argue these can relative. How you might ask? I'll cover the principle of Noncontradiction. The principle of Causality is more of an absolute truth to me - get it? It's relative - just kidding. Contradiction is found throughout the scriptures. The various paradoxes and contradictions that arise with a traditional interpretation serve as clues to a deeper meaning.

I'll share one that's not readily known as a contradiction, but a contradiction nontheless. The most interesting part of it is that someone in scripture notes a contradiction in his reading of scripture!

This is the account of Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch. Acts 8:26-40 Focus on verses 32-33, where the eunuch was reading. Specifically in verse 31, He stated that he could not understand what he was reading. A particular phrase did not make sense to him.

and who shall declare his generation? - The eunuch thought the prophet (Isaiah) spoke of another eunuch like himself who could not raise up seed (his generation). The eunuch also noted that the prophet wrote later in the passage that this man shall see his seed. Isa 53:10 This was an apparent contradiction to eunuch (contradiction relative to him because he couldn't understand what he read, but Phillip could, Acts 8:35). The eunuch therefore was confused and needed interpretation of the passage he was reading. Acts 8:34

I can't offer the explanation to this conundrum, as that's the Lord's job. But thanks for sharing your thoughts!

All the best in Christ.
 
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Saltyjames

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A little more insight on the idea of death existing before the fall.

Death is never presented as being evil by nature. It may be the result of an evil, but death itself is not evil. If death was an evil, then it could never be used in the forgiving of sins as you would just be exchanging one evil for another. So then, does this mean evil is good by nature? This I do not know. Is it simply neutral being neither good or evil? Is it even possible for something to be of neither good or evil? Again, I don't know. But, what I do know, because death isn't an evil, there is no reason to assume it couldn't have been apart of God's creation right from the start.
Interesting concept that death is not evil. It appears it is not itself evil. I can't believe I never considered this. It shows there is no ending to learning of the things of God.
Death is though the closing of the humans physical and temporal dimension, and thereby ending his opportunity to act in that dimension, thereby sealing his eternal fate. Every soul living knows that's spooky on a whole new level.
It says, "we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life". Many answers on this lie in this verse. Being reconciled to God is not the same as being saved.
Strongs says reconciled is:
to change ((very interesting concept as it relates to death!)) , exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value
to reconcile (those who are at variance)

Regarding good and evil I see it this way:
Evil is simply the absences of God's attributes. And so there is no place for neutrality. More on this in a minute.
Examples:
All my friends will be in Hell. Ok, but there is no friendship in Hell.
When faced with the chance of lying or telling the truth, there is never a third option. Because deception via silence or more words is still lying.

Paul also says: “Whatever is not from faith is sin.”

Neutrality:
I have believed that the percentage of humans that get saved is the same percentage that:
1. Left Egypt.
2. Entered the land / crossed Jordan (of course discounting Moses)
This number is roughly 1.8% or 18 out of a 1000 people that die. It amazed me that Howard Pittman in his book Placebo said the exact same thing from his heavenly experience.

I further believe that most of the lost are simply trying to be neutral. Consider the cross. Some were crying, some were scoffing, but 98% just walked right by.
I often meditate that I am at the foot of the cross holding it while He is above me. I do this to work out forgiving others and rooting out my own issues. I've come to see that I am not a POWER Christian like Paul, Peter, Isaiah etc etc. and that I would have probably walked right by like most people. But I have been known to be wrong from time to time... what year is this? haha
 
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Jamdoc

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It is commonly understood that before the fall, there was no death. But, is this actually true? And when death entered the world, was it a physical death, or a spiritual death?

When Adam was placed into the Garden of Eden, he was to work it and take care of it. This may seem trivial but it's actually kind of important. Adam was also told that among all the trees in the garden, he was free to eat from them all including the tree of life, also important. However, there was one tree he was commanded not to eat from, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Along with this commandment, Adam was warned that in the day he eats from it he will certainly die (foreshadowing possibly?). At this time Adam was also brought all the birds, wild animals, and livestock to name. Again, also important.

Did Adam actually die when he ate from the forbidden tree? He did live to be 930 years of age. Was God's warning just a simple stretch of the truth when he said "in the day you eat of it you will certainly die?" Or, Did God actually mean what he said?

Romans 5:12 is commonly used to show us that death first entered the world when Adam sinned. This is true, obviously, but I would argue that it's not in the way most of us have been made to believe. When Adam ate from the tree, he most certainly did die, but it was a spiritual death. In both Col 2:13 and Eph 2:5 we are told that while we were dead in our sins and transgressions, God made us alive. It seem to me it would be extremely difficult to be sinning and transgressing if we are physically dead. When God makes us alive, are we not already alive? What life is he referring to? It is spiritual death and spiritual life that is being referred to here.

Man was created in the image and likeness of God. I would argue that this image is based on the fact that God is revealed to us in three persons. So it stands to reason that our image would also be in three parts. Body, soul, and spirit. There is lots more to say on this, but I'll leave that for another thread. Now since God is spirit, his relationship with us would be a spiritual relationship. In other words, he would relate to us through our spirit. When Adam sinned he spiritually died and this resulted in a separation from God. Not even God can have a relationship with someone who is dead. What Adam's sin didn't do is bring about physical death.

Physical death had to have already been a part of God's creation. Why? Remember when I mentioned how Adam was told to work the ground and care for the garden? This would assume keeping plant life under control. To prune a tree or plant would be to bring death to the part you cut off. Working the ground would inevitably kill many smaller insects and bugs living in the ground. When livestock is mentioned, and maybe this is a stretch on my part, but that could possibly assume meat? When fruit was consumed, was the fruit not already dying or dead once it was plucked from the tree? Also, God would not have warned Adam of certain death from eating of the forbidden tree if Adam would've had no clue what death was (With this I believe both Adam and Eve understood physical death, but did not have any realization of spiritual death. Hence why Satan was able to convince Eve to eat). Then the tree of life, what was the point if death was not already a part of God's creation? Granted, there had not yet been a human death, but death is death regardless of what dies. And, Genesis 3:22. This could only refer to physical life. An act of love on God's part, not allowing man to live forever in a fallen state, separated from God.

This spiritual death however, was not the result of sin in the sense that you pushing someone out a 50 story window results in their death. Rather, it is in the sense that the punishment you will receive for pushing that person out the window is death. Spiritual death was the punishment that God placed on sin. When Adam committed that sin, all man was in Adam. Therefore all man is guilty of that vary sin. Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people because all sinned. Rom 5:15, ...for if the many died by the trespass of one man... Gen 5:3 When Adam was 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image... How is this now different from the image of God? Adam and Eve are both spiritually dead. Everyone born since has come into the world already spiritually dead, separated from God. Except for Jesus, of course, who was of a virgin birth. Otherwise, he too would have been in our same condition, guilty of Adam's sin and therefore not an acceptable sacrifice for our sins.

I can already hear the arguments now, that we are guilty of our own sins, not Adam's. Let me ask you this then... When Adam sinned he spiritually died. That was the punishment for his sin. What happened the second or third time Adam sinned? Since we all come into the world already spiritually dead, like begets like, what happens when we sin? I am speaking only in reference to our relationship with God, not with our neighbour. The answer is nothing happens. The punishment of death has already taken place. We are already dead and separated from God. So, the important question then becomes, is the problem that we are sinners in need of forgiveness, or are we in need of life as a result of Adam's sin?

When Jesus died for the sins of the world, this satisfied God's judgment on sin. As a result, sin will no longer bring death to those who are in Christ. Yes, we still sin, but there is no longer the punishment of death. In accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you receive new life. You are spiritually reborn. And this life is now eternal, since the only thing that could take it away has been dwelt with. Should you remain an unbeliever, although your sins have already been forgiven (read my post "A challenge to read scripture in the light of what I said"), you still remain spiritually dead and separated from God as a result.

I think death in this sense was mostly meaning a separation from God, so spiritual death. As to whether physical death was going to exist on the world or not? I don't know. It seems kind of impossible that creatures could reproduce and fill the earth and never physically die and never need to be physically replaced by offspring. Like think insects or Bacteria. they'd completely overwhelm the Earth by sheer biomass if they never died. Fish spawn by the thousands, they'd choke up the rivers with their numbers if all of them were immortal. So.. I don't know if physical death was intended to be a thing or not. Some reproductive strategies rely on death to work. Conifer trees require fire to spread their seeds. Were humans going to be specifically immortal?

I have the idea that to solve the overcrowding problem in the new creation, well, we will colonize other planets, and spread life throughout an infinitely expanding creation, like we'd never run out of room to grow we'd just .. have more to reach out to.

Other people have the idea that life just stops reproducing, and it's just the same old people 24/7/365 forever, you never meet anyone new, never see new life again, and I find that a stale and horrible future.

But it could also be that non humans do still physically die. Not gonna lie, I find the idea of immortal mosquitoes and wasps kind of unnerving.
 
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A Devil's Advocate

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I think death in this sense was mostly meaning a separation from God, so spiritual death. As to whether physical death was going to exist on the world or not? I don't know. It seems kind of impossible that creatures could reproduce and fill the earth and never physically die and never need to be physically replaced by offspring. Like think insects or Bacteria. they'd completely overwhelm the Earth by sheer biomass if they never died. Fish spawn by the thousands, they'd choke up the rivers with their numbers if all of them were immortal. So.. I don't know if physical death was intended to be a thing or not. Some reproductive strategies rely on death to work. Conifer trees require fire to spread their seeds. Were humans going to be specifically immortal?

I have the idea that to solve the overcrowding problem in the new creation, well, we will colonize other planets, and spread life throughout an infinitely expanding creation, like we'd never run out of room to grow we'd just .. have more to reach out to.

Other people have the idea that life just stops reproducing, and it's just the same old people 24/7/365 forever, you never meet anyone new, never see new life again, and I find that a stale and horrible future.

But it could also be that non humans do still physically die. Not gonna lie, I find the idea of immortal mosquitoes and wasps kind of unnerving.
I couldn't help but laugh in agreement at your last statement about wasps and mosquitoes.

I've found the answer to my question; whether physical death was a part of God's creation. God actually answers it in an indirect way. In Gen 3:22 (funny I didn't catch this before) God is clear on the fact that if we had access to the tree of life, we could essentially live forever with a sinful nature. This means that physical death cannot be a result of sin. It would be impossible for the tree of life to give eternal life to a sinful being if sin results in physical death. They contradict one another.

So, the fact we have physical death means it had to have been a part of God's creation, and therefore good. When God told Adam he would die, he had to have been referring to spiritual death.

Because I have no other way to account for the serpent deceiving Eve, I also have to conclude there was evil in the world before Adam sinned. However, there wasn't any evil within Adam's relationship with God. My analogy of this being a new marriage. Although there is hatred in the world, there is none in your marriage. But, given the right deception or lie, hate could enter your marriage, thereby destroying it.

When Paul, in Rom 5:12, speaks of sin and death entering the world, I have to conclude he was speaking in the context of man's relationship to God. Since physical death was already a part of the world, we know Paul had to be referring to spiritual death, which is always in the context of man's relationship to God. So, if Paul is speaking in context to relationship, then it makes sense that when he mentions evil, this too is in that same context.

Also, we have to understand that sin didn't result in spiritual death like a cancer resulting in death. Spiritual death was the punishment, or the wages of sin. This punishment is God's justice being carried out. This is why all the yearly sacrifices for sin. Although these would cover man's sin, as soon as man sinned again, he was right back where he started. The proper sacrifice would have to be human and free of sin in order to stand in our place. Jesus, the lamb of God, took the punishment for all sin for all time. There is now no longer any punishment to be handed out. No more spiritual death. Through belief, you receive new spiritual life, this being eternal life because there is now no way of ever losing it, even though we still sin.
 
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Jamdoc

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I couldn't help but laugh in agreement at your last statement about wasps and mosquitoes.

I've found the answer to my question; whether physical death was a part of God's creation. God actually answers it in an indirect way. In Gen 3:22 (funny I didn't catch this before) God is clear on the fact that if we had access to the tree of life, we could essentially live forever with a sinful nature. This means that physical death cannot be a result of sin. It would be impossible for the tree of life to give eternal life to a sinful being if sin results in physical death. They contradict one another.

So, the fact we have physical death means it had to have been a part of God's creation, and therefore good. When God told Adam he would die, he had to have been referring to spiritual death.

Because I have no other way to account for the serpent deceiving Eve, I also have to conclude there was evil in the world before Adam sinned. However, there wasn't any evil within Adam's relationship with God. My analogy of this being a new marriage. Although there is hatred in the world, there is none in your marriage. But, given the right deception or lie, hate could enter your marriage, thereby destroying it.

When Paul, in Rom 5:12, speaks of sin and death entering the world, I have to conclude he was speaking in the context of man's relationship to God. Since physical death was already a part of the world, we know Paul had to be referring to spiritual death, which is always in the context of man's relationship to God. So, if Paul is speaking in context to relationship, then it makes sense that when he mentions evil, this too is in that same context.

Also, we have to understand that sin didn't result in spiritual death like a cancer resulting in death. Spiritual death was the punishment, or the wages of sin. This punishment is God's justice being carried out. This is why all the yearly sacrifices for sin. Although these would cover man's sin, as soon as man sinned again, he was right back where he started. The proper sacrifice would have to be human and free of sin in order to stand in our place. Jesus, the lamb of God, took the punishment for all sin for all time. There is now no longer any punishment to be handed out. No more spiritual death. Through belief, you receive new spiritual life, this being eternal life because there is now no way of ever losing it, even though we still sin.
Yeah good catch on the tree of life, I know that's a part of the eternal state, Perhaps it just regenerates and heals us (the leaves ARE for the healing of the nations).. healing from what?
an interesting question
 
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Neogaia777

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I couldn't help but laugh in agreement at your last statement about wasps and mosquitoes.

I've found the answer to my question; whether physical death was a part of God's creation. God actually answers it in an indirect way. In Gen 3:22 (funny I didn't catch this before) God is clear on the fact that if we had access to the tree of life, we could essentially live forever with a sinful nature. This means that physical death cannot be a result of sin. It would be impossible for the tree of life to give eternal life to a sinful being if sin results in physical death. They contradict one another.

So, the fact we have physical death means it had to have been a part of God's creation, and therefore good. When God told Adam he would die, he had to have been referring to spiritual death.

Because I have no other way to account for the serpent deceiving Eve, I also have to conclude there was evil in the world before Adam sinned. However, there wasn't any evil within Adam's relationship with God. My analogy of this being a new marriage. Although there is hatred in the world, there is none in your marriage. But, given the right deception or lie, hate could enter your marriage, thereby destroying it.

When Paul, in Rom 5:12, speaks of sin and death entering the world, I have to conclude he was speaking in the context of man's relationship to God. Since physical death was already a part of the world, we know Paul had to be referring to spiritual death, which is always in the context of man's relationship to God. So, if Paul is speaking in context to relationship, then it makes sense that when he mentions evil, this too is in that same context.

Also, we have to understand that sin didn't result in spiritual death like a cancer resulting in death. Spiritual death was the punishment, or the wages of sin. This punishment is God's justice being carried out. This is why all the yearly sacrifices for sin. Although these would cover man's sin, as soon as man sinned again, he was right back where he started. The proper sacrifice would have to be human and free of sin in order to stand in our place. Jesus, the lamb of God, took the punishment for all sin for all time. There is now no longer any punishment to be handed out. No more spiritual death. Through belief, you receive new spiritual life, this being eternal life because there is now no way of ever losing it, even though we still sin.
You make a good point about the physical possibly not being eternal, or that it was meant to die at some point in time even in the Garden, etc, but other than maybe seeing a bug, or an insect die occasionally possibly, I think the Garden of Eden was an isolated place from the rest of the world at that time, and that all mammals in it, lived a very, very long time, etc, and that they still had not experienced even physical death yet even, or seen the red blood shed from seeing a mammal be slain, or die, etc. And I think the very first time they saw that, or did experience that for the very first time, etc, was only after they disobeyed, and God Himself took a mammal/animal and killed it/she'd it's blood/skinned it, etc, maybe right in front of them for the very first time, etc, to make clothing for them now to now cover the shame they now felt or experienced due to their own nakedness now for the very first time, etc. And this was probably quite a shock to them at that time, etc. And I think this was part of God's teaching them a very valuable lesson for the very first time, etc, about the consequences of their own sinning or of their own disobedience to God for the very first time, etc.

No one knows how long Adam and Eve were, or how long they existed before they chose to disobey for the very first time, but I don't think it was a very, very long time, etc.

Maybe if they hadn't disobeyed, or they were given more time, maybe they would have eventually experienced physical death themselves maybe, or might have maybe seen other creatures (mammals) maybe die, etc, and maybe they would have seen what having offspring was like, for both they themselves, and maybe other mammals maybe, etc, if they had not disobeyed, and immediately spiritually died, etc. As I do believe that was the original plan, for Adam and Eve to eventually have children, and for them and their descendants after them, to establish a very special people and unique Kingdom that would spread, or that they would make spread, and that would rule over all others after them after that time, had they not disobeyed God before that maybe, and immediately spiritually died.

God Bless.
 
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Jamdoc

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You make a good point about the physical possibly not being eternal, or that it was meant to die at some point in time even in the Garden, etc, but other than maybe seeing a bug, or an insect die occasionally possibly, I think the Garden of Eden was an isolated place from the rest of the world at that time, and that all mammals in it, lived a very, very long time, etc, and that they still had not experienced even physical death yet even, or seen the red blood shed from seeing a mammal be slain, or die, etc. And I think the very first time they saw that, or did experience that for the very first time, etc, was only after they disobeyed, and God Himself took a mammal/animal and killed it/she'd it's blood/skinned it, etc, maybe right in front of them for the very first time, etc, to make clothing for them now to now cover the shame they now felt or experienced due to their own nakedness now for the very first time, etc. And this was probably quite a shock to them at that time, etc. And I think this was part of God's teaching them a very valuable lesson for the very first time, etc, about the consequences of their own sinning or of their own disobedience to God for the very first time, etc.
Sacrifices were always to show that sin has a cost, death, and if not your own death than the death of someone or something you valued. Ultimately pointing to the death of God's own Son.
No one knows how long Adam and Eve were, or how long they existed before they chose to disobey for the very first time, but I don't think it was a very, very long time, etc.
I'm not entirely sure. I mean the evidence is that the world is very old, Adam and Eve not counting their years until they were exiled from Eden is one "possibility" I hold for the Earth seeming so old but still adhering to the Biblical creation narrative. The other is that God has created and destroyed the Earth multiple times, because He plans to destroy and recreate this world too, and He simply hasn't revealed to us everything, just enough for us to know who He is.

Either one of those I like better than "well God just made the world look older than it is to trick people into believing something other than the bible. That doesn't line up with God's character.

But either way we have a young earth story and physical evidence of a much older Earth. I don't know how they reconcile but Adam and Eve basically living in the garden for a long time before sinning is one possibility I guess.

Maybe if they hadn't disobeyed, or they were given more time, maybe they would have eventually experienced physical death themselves maybe, or might have maybe seen other creatures (mammals) maybe die, etc, and maybe they would have seen what having offspring was like, for both they themselves, and maybe other mammals maybe, etc, if they had not disobeyed, and immediately spiritually died, etc. As I do believe that was the original plan, for Adam and Eve to eventually have children, and for them and their descendants after them, to establish a very special people and unique Kingdom that would spread, or that they would make spread, and that would rule over all others after them after that time, had they not disobeyed God before that maybe, and immediately spiritually died.

God Bless.

It's an interesting idea at least, Like if Adam, or us after the resurrection were to fall off a cliff, what would have happened? Would they just bounce off harmlessly? Would it break their bones and they just get healed from it? Would they die and then God resurrect them? If we just stop eating, would that have 0 consequences?
 
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