IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

[Kermos]

In the goodness of your good heart you chose God - so goes the mantra of you self willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) in your imaginary free will (Philemon 1:14). "The intent of man's heart is evil from his youth" is the recorded thought of God (Genesis 8:21). "The heart is deceitful above all, and incurable" says the YHWH God Almighty (Jeremiah 17:9). "you being evil" are the recorded words of Lord Jesus Christ to His apostles (Matthew 7:11). "No one is good except God alone" says Adonai Yeshua Messiah (Mark 10:18). The evil heart cannot do the good thing of choosing Jesus, the Word of God (John 1:14), for the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[JackRT]

I can't do that if I have no free will. Must be God doing it.

I agree. Without free will Christianity is no longer Christianity. Man cannot be condemned for something that he did not choose freely.

 

[renniks]

I agree. Without free will Christianity is no longer Christianity. Man cannot be condemned for something that he did not choose freely.

Yes, this should be obvious to anyone who has read the Bible. Otherwise, we are merely pawns and nothing makes sense, least of all God's commands to make right choices.

 

[Kermos]

I agree. Without free will Christianity is no longer Christianity. Man cannot be condemned for something that he did not choose freely.

Christians that believe the Word of God Who is Christ Jesus make up Christianity, so Christianity never stops being Christianity.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[Kermos]

Context. That verse does not claim free will is illusionary. Good grief.

Philemon 1:14, ESV: "but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord."

He's saying that he wants them to help from thier own free will and not feel like they have to help. Not hard to understand.

So, your verse confirms Free Will exists.

The Apostle Paul wrote of "free will" metaphorically in "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

The KJV renders "in effect" as "as it were"

AND "as it were" is adverbial with the meaning "as if it were really so"

SO "as it were" is the same as "in effect"

Two literary constructs are "in effect" and "in fact" each with differing definition, here are the hallmarks of each phrase:

"in effect" expresses differing causes in which a similar effect/outcome occurs (cause and effect); in other words, one thing is different from another thing, yet the resultant effect is similar.

"in fact" expresses accuracy of fact; in other words, two things that are the same arrive at the same resultant effect.

An example of each:

EXAMPLE "IN EFFECT" SENTENCE: In effect, the systems are identical.

EXAMPLE "IN FACT" SENTENCE: In fact, the systems are identical.

An explanation of the examples:

EXPLANATION OF "IN EFFECT" SENTENCE: Two systems using different means to arrive at similarly identical output despite using alternative avenue/means/cause to arrive at the output.

EXPLANATION OF "IN FACT" SENTENCE: Arriving at the same output using two exactly same systems or two systems the same in function with few details changed.

Paul wrote of the outcome "your goodness".

Paul also wrote of two systems/causes which are (1) "compulsion" and (2) "your own free will".

Paul's writing indicates that "in effect" is applied to the two systems/causes, and this results in "your own free will" as the illusory system/cause.

THEREFORE, "free will" as a concrete system/cause does not occur in the New Testament.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[Kermos]

Yes, this should be obvious to anyone who has read the Bible. Otherwise, we are merely pawns and nothing makes sense, least of all God's commands to make right choices.

Paul wrote "who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:20-23).

God is the Potter, and we are the clay (Romans 9:20-23, Isaiah 64:8).

Your reference to "pawns", renniks, are daring words (2 Peter 2:9-10).

All the Word of God makes sense!

BTW, the Apostle Paul wrote of the commands which you reference, "I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COVET.' But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind" (Romans 7:7-8).

Your daring words, renniks, (2 Peter 2:9-10) are out of accord with scripture AGAIN.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter, in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you try to add to scripture AGAIN!
There is no mention of "choose".
There is no mention of "free will".

Wrong! Your post is a logical fallacy. Argument from silence. Just because the words "choose" or ":free will" are not mentioned does not mean they don't exist. Everybody makes many choices every day. I made a choice for lunch, I drove up to the window and ordered. I did not say I choose" but by stating what I wanted I was choosing.

God says "they did not listen" (Jeremiah 13:11) which expresses an action - not a choice - an action. God says they acted against God not towards God in verse 11. Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Wrong again! Yes, Israel and Judah's action resulted from a choice to NOT do what God commanded. Perhaps you need to go to school and learn what choose, choice, chose etc. means. If I'm driving down the street and come to an intersection and I think to myself. "Do I go right or straight ahead." I go straight ahead. I have made a choice. I did not say "choose,""choice,""chose" but by going one way rather than the other that is a choice.

It appears that you have not read where Lord Jesus says "Nor do [people] put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved" (Matthew 9:17).

Great scripture but totally irrelevant to my post. There are choices implied in the verse, although the word "choose" does not occur. The choice is put new wine in new wineskins or old wineskins. When there is more than one option and a person selects one option rather than the other they are making a choice.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

I am tired of your personal twisting of John 15:16. As I said, in the verse Jesus is talking to His disciples who were present with Him, not all mankind. I have shown you the scripture which proves it but you "choose" to follow your own private interpretation. God did not create us as mindless robots.

 

[renniks]

Paul's writing indicates that "in effect" is applied to the two systems/causes, and this results in "your own free will" as the illusory system/cause.

No, the in effect is referring to compulsion, so the free will is the reality... but your whole hypothesis is hogwash anyway. If I say you are " in effect" doing thus and so, it refers to the action you are doing, it's not an overarching explanation of what the words mean.

 

[renniks]

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,"

 

[Kermos]

Wrong! Your post is a logical fallacy. Argument from silence. Just because the words "choose" or ":free will" are not mentioned does not mean they don't exist. Everybody makes many choices every day. I made a choice for lunch, I drove up to the window and ordered. I did not say I choose" but by stating what I wanted I was choosing.

Wrong again! Yes, Israel and Judah's action resulted from a choice to NOT do what God commanded. Perhaps you need to go to school and learn what choose, choice, chose etc. means. If I'm driving down the street and come to an intersection and I think to myself. "Do I go right or straight ahead." I go straight ahead. I have made a choice. I did not say "choose,""choice,""chose" but by going one way rather than the other that is a choice.

Great scripture but totally irrelevant to my post. There are choices implied in the verse, although the word "choose" does not occur. The choice is put new wine in new wineskins or old wineskins. When there is more than one option and a person selects one option rather than the other they are making a choice.

I am tired of your personal twisting of John 15:16. As I said, in the verse Jesus is talking to His disciples who were present with Him, not all mankind. I have shown you the scripture which proves it but you "choose" to follow your own private interpretation. God did not create us as mindless robots.

God did not mention "choose", so you are adding to scripture.

God did not mention "free will", so you are adding to scripture.

Der Alter, in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you persist in adding to scripture AGAIN!

You convey that the Word of God is not enough, so in your self will you add to scripture.

God says "they did not listen" (Jeremiah 13:11) which expresses an action - not a choice - an action. God says they acted against God not towards God in verse 11. Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

It appears that you have not read where Lord Jesus says "Nor do [people] put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved" (Matthew 9:17).

Your word "implied" is you daringly adding to scripture. Neither "choose" nor "free will" are implicit nor explicit in the passage!

Your self willed declaration about "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) is unrighteous, and here is why:

An Exposition Of When Lord Jesus Says "You"

LORD JESUS' PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FULFILLING

In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17, see also John 14:26, John 15:26-27, John 16:7-14).

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).

At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).

Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".

Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!

Thus, the fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is more than the 11 Apostles, and includes not just the Jews but also the Gentiles because of Cornelius, and our Lord Jesus saying "you" to the disciples includes all disciples in all time.

LORD JESUS' PRAYER FOR US BELIEVERS

Part of the prayer of Lord Jesus during the supper is thus "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).

Jesus said "through their word" (John 17:20) which means that "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) are words that the Apostle John recorded. John recorded the Word of God, and the Word of God says "for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and He preceded these words with "I do not ask on behalf of these alone" (John 17:20), so the Word of God during the supper is not just for the people in the room, but the Word of God during the supper is for all believers in all time.

Thus, belief in Jesus through the Apostle John's words includes the Lord Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 which are all part of the "through" John's "word" (John 17:20) which Jesus referred to in His prayer.

Self willed persons do not want the Lord Jesus to reign over them by claiming to do the opposite of that which Lord Jesus says with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and Lord Jesus provided explanation with "these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence" (Luke 19:27).

GOD IS THE POTTER, AND WE ARE THE CLAY

Paul wrote "who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:20-23).

God is the Potter, and we are the clay (Romans 9:20-23, Isaiah 64:8).

Your reference to "mindless robots", Der Alter, are daring words (2 Peter 2:9-10) against the Potter.

Your daring words, Der Alter, (2 Peter 2:9-10) are out of accord with scripture AGAIN.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[Kermos]

No, the in effect is referring to compulsion, so the free will is the reality... but your whole hypothesis is hogwash anyway. If I say you are " in effect" doing thus and so, it refers to the action you are doing, it's not an overarching explanation of what the words mean.

renniks, that's more of your daring self will trying to redefine grammar.

"but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14 NASB).

Apart-from however your consent nothing I-wished to-do so-that not as according-to necessity the good of-you may-be but according-to willingness" (Philemon 1:14 word for word Greek to English).

The clause after "in effect" is cohesive; in other words, "by compulsion but of your own free will" is a whole grammatically; therefore, the effectual "cause" of his goodness is not compulsion but free will.

Logic comes into play, here, as a literary construct. Notice the position of the word "not" in the sentence. The word "not" precedes the word "as". The word "as" is "as it were" or "in effect", essentially, the sentence contains "would not be, in effect, by". The "not" precedes "in effect" resulting in an inversion of "compulsion" and "free will" with respect to "in effect". Thus, "compulsion" is the concrete, and "free will" is the illusory.

Paul clearly states that for appearances sake his goodness would have the appearance of free will with free will being the illusory element.

Paul does not say he has the free will to choose God.

Paul wrote "we are His work, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10); therefore, Paul's words in Philemon 1:14 agree with Paul's words in Ephesians 2:10.

Lord Jesus says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21); therefore, Paul in Philemon 1:14 is NOT going to contradict the Lord's words in John 3:21, so "your goodness" in Philemon 1:14 are such that "his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

"your goodness" in Philemon 1:14 is referring to fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and Paul knew this.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[Kermos]

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,"

"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY EXAMPLE:

A boxer receives punches - not by choice - but in the fury of the fight.

The pedestrian received a series of traumatic injuries - not by choice - but a result of the collision.

A lover receives a love letter - not by choice - but in gladness.

"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY DICTIONARY:

1. TRANSITIVE VERB When you receive something, you get it after someone gives it to you or sends it to you. (Collins COBUILD English Usage (c) HarperCollins Publishers 1992, 2004, 2011, 2012)

There is a keyword in the definition, which is "after".

"RECEIVE" USAGE IN SCRIPTURE:

"Peter [said] to them, 'Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.'" (Acts 2:38-39, this was Peter's response after the people who were pierced to the heart by Peter's proclamation inquired "Brethren, what shall we do?" in Acts 2:14-37)

Peter issued the command "think differently from now on" (repent) and the command "be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" and here is where "receive" comes in, "you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" which is an act of God.

RECEIVE DOES NOT INCLUDE CHOICE

There is no choice indicated in "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God".

FURTHERMORE, YOU DID NOT FINISH THE PASSAGE PROPERLY, RENNIKS, SO LET'S BEHOLD THAT IT'S NOT BY THE WILL OF MAN:

The Apostle John wrote "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, [even] to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[renniks]

The clause after "in effect" is cohesive; in other words, "by compulsion but of your own free will" is a whole grammatically; therefore, the effectual "cause" of his goodness is not compulsion but free will

Exactly, so the free will is the reality, IN THIS SITUATION. It's got nothing to do with whether free will is real or not, overall. That's not even what is being discussed. If I say: " I want you to grab my coat for me, but I don't want you to feel obligated to do it." I'm not making some philosophical statement about whether free will is real or not... but it suggests that Paul believes free will is real, or he would not say that it should be done from free will instead of compulsion.

 

[renniks]

"Peter [said] to them, 'Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.'" (Acts 2:38-39, this was Peter's response after the people who were pierced to the heart by Peter's proclamation inquired "Brethren, what shall we do?" in Acts 2:14-37)

Oh, look, you have to do something. you have to take action and repent in order to be forgiven, and receive the Spirit. It's not forced onto you like a punch from Rocky Balboa.

 

[Kermos]

Exactly, so the free will is the reality, IN THIS SITUATION. It's got nothing to do with whether free will is real or not, overall. That's not even what is being discussed. If I say: " I want you to grab my coat for me, but I don't want you to feel obligated to do it." I'm not making some philosophical statement about whether free will is real or not... but it suggests that Paul believes free will is real, or he would not say that it should be done from free will instead of compulsion.

You are entirely wrong about free will because in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you try to redefine grammar and boolean logic.

The Bible is a spiritual book about spiritual things, but the self willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) as natural men do not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised (1 Corinthians 2:14).

In this situation, free will is the illusory matter; meanwhile, compulsion is the concrete matter. The following clearly proves the point.

The Apostle Paul wrote of "free will" metaphorically in "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

The same writing of the Apostle Paul in direct word for word Greek to English "Apart-from however your consent nothing I-wished to-do so-that not as according-to necessity the good of-you may-be but according-to willingness" (Philemon 1:14)

The KJV renders "in effect" as "as it were"

AND "as it were" is adverbial with the meaning "as if it were really so"

SO "as it were" is the same as "in effect"

Two literary constructs are "in effect" and "in fact" each with differing definition, here are the hallmarks of each phrase:

"in effect" expresses differing causes in which a similar effect/outcome occurs (cause and effect); in other words, one thing is different from another thing, yet the resultant effect is similar.

"in fact" expresses accuracy of fact; in other words, two things that are the same arrive at the same resultant effect.

An example of each:

EXAMPLE "IN EFFECT" SENTENCE: In effect, the systems are identical.

EXAMPLE "IN FACT" SENTENCE: In fact, the systems are identical.

An explanation of the examples:

EXPLANATION OF "IN EFFECT" SENTENCE: Two systems using different means to arrive at similarly identical output despite using alternative avenue/means/cause to arrive at the output.

EXPLANATION OF "IN FACT" SENTENCE: Arriving at the same output using two exactly same systems or two systems the same in function with few details changed.

Paul wrote of the outcome "your goodness".

The clause after "in effect" is cohesive

"by compulsion but of your own free will" is a whole grammatically.

This results in the effectual "cause" of "your goodness" is not compulsion but free will.

Paul also wrote of two systems/causes which are (1) "compulsion" and (2) "your own free will".

Logic comes into play, here, as a literary construct.

The functional words "and", "or", and "not" are part of boolean logic operators.

Notice the position of the word "not" in the sentence.

The word "not" precedes the word "as".

The word "as" is "as it were" or "in effect", essentially, the sentence contains "would not be, in effect, by".

The "not" precedes "in effect" resulting in an inversion of "compulsion" and "free will" with respect to "in effect".

Thus, "compulsion" is the concrete, and "free will" is the illusory.

Paul clearly states that for appearances sake "your goodness" would have the appearance of "free will" with "free will" being the illusory element.

Paul does not say he has the free will to choose God.

It is prudent to compare scripture with scripture

Paul referring to "your goodness" in Philemon 1:14 is referring to good works that God prepared for us believers to walk in them (Ephesians 2:10)

Paul also wrote "we are His work, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10)

This results in Paul's words in Philemon 1:14 agreeing with Paul's words in Ephesians 2:10.

Paul referring to "your goodness" in Philemon 1:14 is referring to fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23)

Paul knew that "good works" of the creature is "fruit of the Spirit"

This establishes the Philemon 1:14 relation with Galatians 5:22-23

Paul knew the works are wrought in God (John 3:21)

Paul's writing indicates that "in effect" is applied to the two systems/causes, and this results in "your own free will" as the illusory system/cause.

THEREFORE, "free will" as a concrete system/cause does not occur in the New Testament.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[Kermos]

Oh, look, you have to do something. you have to take action and repent in order to be forgiven, and receive the Spirit. It's not forced onto you like a punch from Rocky Balboa.

Oh, renniks, you do not know what repentance is. Here is scripture and word definition that clearly defines to repent is a work of God. As is clearly evident, God grants thinking differently afterward (repentance) (Acts 11:18).

This puts God's work of repentance in man as the very first command issued by Peter with "Repent" in Acts 2:38.

LINGUISTIC DEFiNITION

Let us dig into the word "repent" which means "think differently afterwards". After we believers are born from above by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3), and in like manner given the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). The Greek word metanoeó is the English word "repent" in Matthew 4:17. Let us obtain the definition of "repent".

Repent: think differently afterwards

metanoé? (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noié?, "think") ? properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards") (def from 3340. metanoeó HELPS Word-studies section).

The word "repent" does not mean "I change my mind" as asserted by too many people. Try reciting the words of Jesus, where He is commanding the people in Matthew 4:17, except, first, replace the word "repent" with "I change my mind", then, second, replace the word "repent" with "think differently afterwards". God does not change (Malachi 3:6), so this One True God Jesus commands repent.

Godly sorrow brings "thinking differently afterward" leading to salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10, so God's power generates this sorrow within the believers hence God calls it "Godly sorrow" thus illuminating and magnifying sin (Romans 5:20).

FIRST BIBLICAL CiTATION FOR REPENTANCE - A DEEP EXAMINATION

Here is the Christian teaching of 2 Corinthians 7:8-10. The passage (from the NASB which explicitly states that the NASB translators add bracketed words for clarity - so I have no problem removing the bracketed words from the NASB - but this is verbatim from the NASB):

8 For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it - [for] I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while -

9 I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to [the point of] repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to [the will of] God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.

10 For the sorrow that is according to [the will] [of] God produces a repentance without regret, [leading] to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Paul wrote a letter that exposed the Corinthian problem, see "I caused you sorrow by my letter" in verse 8.

As Paul writes further (in verse 9), the Apostle narrows the focus with "for you were made sorrowful according to God"; moreover, the Greek of ????????? ??? ???? ???? agrees with "for you were made sorrowful according to God". "?????????" means "you grieved"/"you were made sorrowful", and "???" means "for", and "????" means "down"/"against"/"according to", and "????" means "God".

Paul does not leave it there, NO, rather Paul repeats himself in verse 10 to make it clear - in Jewish fashion of repeating a point for emphasis - Paul makes it clear in no uncertain terms "the sorrow that is according to God produces a repentance without regret, to salvation". That is Paul driving the Power of God exclusive role in man's salvation point home!

NOTICE THE KEYWORDS OF "ACCORDING TO GOD".

That sorrow, that repentance, is not of man's conjuring. See the keywords and absolute concept of "according to God"!

The scripture is devoid of "sorrow that is according to your free will" or "your free will to repent" or any indication about such a notion as man's free-will choice toward God.

The Apostle wrote "the sorrow that is according to God produces thinking differently afterward without regret" (2 Corinthians 7:10).

SCRIPTURAL CITATIONS ABOUT THE SOURCE OF REPENTANCE

BIBLE CITATION: Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4).

Notice that rebuke of people that despise repentance being from God!

BIBLE CITATION: When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." (Acts 11:18)

See that God grants repentance as testified by the disciples in Acts 11:18.

BIBLE CITATION: with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, (2 Timothy 2:25)

Paul testifies that God grants "thinking different afterwards" in 2 Timothy 2:25.

GOD GRANTS REPENTANCE

God grants repentance into people, as it is written; on the other hand, there is complete absence and silence in scripture for repentance as a work conjured up by man nor by man's "free will" nor "choice" nor "ability".

God grants repentance, and God acts for God's glory! Praise be to the Living God!

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[renniks]

Paul clearly states that for appearances sake "your goodness" would have the appearance of "free will" with "free will" being the illusory element.

Nope, not even close. You are just spouting gobolygook. It's as bad as people looking for secret codes in scripture.

 

[renniks]

the sorrow that is according to God produces a repentance without regret, to salvation".

Why tell them this if the repentance is irresistible? Yes, the sorrow producing repentance is the kind God desires.

"the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. There’s no regret for that kind of sorrow. But worldly sorrow, which lacks repentance, results in spiritual death."

Now, why contrast two types of repentance if we have no choice?

"see what this godly sorrow produced in you! Such earnestness, such concern to clear yourselves, such indignation, such alarm, such longing to see me, such zeal, and such a readiness to punish wrong. You showed that you have done everything necessary to make things right."

Looks like they had to engage thier Will's to do as God desired.

 

[Kermos]

Nope, not even close. You are just spouting gobolygook. It's as bad as people looking for secret codes in scripture.

Again, you prove that in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) that:
1) you fail to understand literary construct,
2) you fail to understand grammar,
3) you fail to understand boolean logic.

But worst of all, you fail to understand scripture.

You fail to take scripture with scripture.

At the end of the sentence, Paul wrote "not as according-to necessity the good of-you may-be but according-to willingness" (Philemon 1:14), so everything after the word "not" is a cohesive phrase; therefore, willingness (free will in the NASB) is illusory.

It is prudent to compare scripture with scripture

Paul referring to "your goodness" in Philemon 1:14 is referring to good works that God prepared for us believers to walk in them (Ephesians 2:10)

Paul also wrote "we are His work, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10)

This results in Paul's words in Philemon 1:14 agreeing with Paul's words in Ephesians 2:10.

Paul referring to "your goodness" in Philemon 1:14 is referring to fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23)

Paul knew that "good works" of the creature is "fruit of the Spirit"

This establishes the Philemon 1:14 relation with Galatians 5:22-23

Paul knew the works are wrought in God (John 3:21).

All of your self willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) failures are manifested where your words contradict where the Apostle Paul wrote of "free will" as illusory in Philemon 1:14 (post in this thread).

 

[Kermos]

Why tell them this if the repentance is irresistible? Yes, the sorrow producing repentance is the kind God desires.

"the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. There’s no regret for that kind of sorrow. But worldly sorrow, which lacks repentance, results in spiritual death."

Now, why contrast two types of repentance if we have no choice?

"see what this godly sorrow produced in you! Such earnestness, such concern to clear yourselves, such indignation, such alarm, such longing to see me, such zeal, and such a readiness to punish wrong. You showed that you have done everything necessary to make things right."

Looks like they had to engage thier Will's to do as God desired.

In your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), AGAIN you add to scripture with "Looks like they had to engage thier Will's to do as God desired" because THAT IS NOT WHAT SCRIPTURE STATES.

In your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), you even try to change "worldly sorrow" into a second type of repentance, yet the passage does not indicate that worldly sorrow is repentance; in contrast, the passage states that "worldly sorrow" "lacks repentance".

In your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), you skip right past this BIBLE CITATION: When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." (Acts 11:18)

See that God grants repentance as testified by the disciples in Acts 11:18.

As previously written, renniks, you do not know what repentance is (post in this thread).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!