Is the Whole of Apologetics Merely a Facade?

[cvanwey]

That sounds very much like @cvanwey is saying he wants to know why he should believe in God, and you're answering that he should begin by believing in God.

If I told you of a God that I believed in, and told you that you could have proof of His existence if you would just have faith that He existed, would that make sense?

Of course it does not make sense @InterestedAtheist And why might this be?

- God can present His presence to anyone, at anytime. Heck, the Bible even asserts the following (i.e.) "every knee will bow, every tongue will confess."

- God presented to many directly in the OT, and some in the NT - (whom did not request His contact).

- Furthermore, I do not need to 'prepare' myself in a special kind of way...

- Countless anecdotal claims of God's contact

- He seems to side-step the intercessory prayer issue

Instead, @NBB plausibly looks to be making a typical case of special pleading.

 

[NBB]

Whatever you say, God has left a mark in me, and i'm as a lucid person am 100% sure it is him, not worth anything to you? it should, there were criminal cases resolved with eye witness alone, the same mind that can do science can also experience something from God and be sure of things, also when i say you need to believe yes, if you have a little hint of God in some remote corner, believe a little, you don't get proof first with God most of the time, or you get proof if you are open, if you are a black hole of incredulity and reject God that is not healthy at all.

 

[NBB]

There is plenty of reasons to believe in God also, nature speaks creativity and lots of information you can gather that it not may be like believing something like the earth is round because we have hard proof of that but its still compelling evidence.
People just play hard to get with God, and that a very silly game. We should be on our knees asking for mercy.

 

[cvanwey]

also experience something from God and be sure of things

I wanted to point the focus here. Let's just assume that creationism is settled. -- It is the clear winner. Now, all we have to do is figure out if:

- This creator even attempts to contact his creation? Assuming he does...
- What method(s) is he using to contact us? Is there a sound and verified way to know? Let's assume there is...
- Is it even consistent? Assuming it is consistent...
- Does this verified method also include answers to the call of earnest believers, and their requests in intercessory prayer? Assuming it does, and he answers...

Why have I not felt that I have received contact?

Your current answer, thus far, is categorically false. Why? Because it disagrees with the Bible.

 

[NBB]

I wanted to point the focus here. Let's just assume that creationism is settled. -- It is the clear winner. Now, all we have to do is figure out if:

- This creator even attempts to contact his creation? Assuming he does...
- What method(s) is he using to contact us? Is there a sound and verified way to know? Let's assume there is...
- Is it even consistent? Assuming it is consistent...
- Does this verified method also include answers to the call of earnest believers, and their requests in intercessory prayer? Assuming it does, and he answers...

Why have I not felt that I have received contact?

Your current answer, thus far, is categorically false. Why? Because it disagrees with the Bible.

The bible say that to aproach God one must believe he exists, and that he rewards people who seek him.
This is not being 100% sure of the existence of God, but just believing even with a weak faith.

 

[cvanwey]

There is plenty of reasons to believe in God also, nature speaks creativity and lots of information you can gather that it not may be like believing something like the earth is round because we have hard proof of that but its still compelling evidence.
People just play hard to get with God, and that a very silly game. We should be on our knees asking for mercy.

You are again, categorically mistaken. I have asked, repeatedly, for your attempts in intercessory prayer.

You claim God answers your prayers.
You claim God answers intercessory prayer, if it is genuine.
You state you have prayed for God to contact me.
You know God's contact to me will not ruin my free will.
You also know God has not contacted me.

You then state 'sometimes'. --> This contradicts Scripture.

How much additional special pleading do you wish to engage upon?

 

[NBB]

You are again, categorically mistaken. I have asked, repeatedly, for your attempts in intercessory prayer.

You claim God answers your prayers.
You claim God answers intercessory prayer, if it is genuine.
You state you have prayed for God to contact me.
You know God's contact to me will not ruin my free will.
You also know God has not contacted me.

You then state 'sometimes'. --> This contradicts Scripture.

How much additional special pleading do you wish to engage upon?

I did not say God 'sometimes' asnwer praying read what i wrote, i said sometimes it takes work to get an answer, saying all prayers need to be answered immediately is anti bible, since there is plenty of people who waited praying and believing for decades even. He says he will answer not that he will answer immeditely.

 

[cvanwey]

The bible say that to aproach God one must believe he exists, and that he rewards people who seek him.
This is not being 100% sure of the existence of God, but just believing even with a weak faith.

I did seek Him. This failed. And I now ask that you call Him, on my behalf, as He does not contact me. And as you state, God answers your prayers.

God also states:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

Surely you must admit that some of these individuals will have a completely 'closed heart', prior to this revelation

My heart isn't even closed. I'm patiently waiting for your intercessory prayer to work.

 

[NBB]

I did seek Him. This failed. And I now ask that you call Him, on my behalf, as He does not contact me. And as you state, God answers your prayers.

God also states:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

Surely you must admit that some of these individuals will have a completely 'closed heart', prior to this revelation

My heart isn't even closed. I'm patiently waiting for your intercessory prayer to work.

Don't kick yourself or God then if you sought him out, just wait and have your ears alert and open to anything that can get you closer to God, God is not supposed to reject anyone.
I don't know i'm not an experienced pastor or anything, just my little advice.

 

[cvanwey]

I did not say God 'sometimes' asnwer praying read what i wrote, i said sometimes it takes work to get an answer, saying all prayers need to be answered immediately is anti bible, since there is plenty of people who waited praying and believing for decades even. He says he will answer not that he will answer immeditely.

Great. Then prove it. When should I expect this contact? Today, 5 seconds before my death, somewhere in between?

Seems quite strange that God wants nothing more than to have a close personal relationship with His creation, and all God would need to do to start this relationship with me, is reveal Himself to me. And yet, He chooses to perpetually wait.?.?.?.????????????????????

 

[cvanwey]

Don't kick yourself or God then if you sought him out, just wait and have your ears alert and open to anything that can get you closer to God, God is not supposed to reject anyone.
I don't know i'm not an experienced pastor or anything, just my little advice.

(Duplicate response needed)

Seems quite strange that God wants nothing more than to have a close personal relationship with His creation, and all God would need to do to start this relationship with me, is reveal Himself to me. And yet, He chooses to perpetually wait.?.?.?.????????????????????

 

[NBB]

(Duplicate response needed)

Seems quite strange that God wants nothing more than to have a close personal relationship with His creation, and all God would need to do to start this relationship with me, is reveal Himself to me. And yet, He chooses to perpetually wait.?.?.?.????????????????????

I don't know, really don't, maybe put some effort in it? go to some church or another, read more, pray, scream at God in your knees, put heart on it, 'you are going to find God because you are searching for him with all your heart' the bible says something like that.

This is so important i can't stress it enough, God is real. There is some false pastors out there wanting only money but the honest ones i tell you they are not snake oil salesmans at all, God can get close to us and we need to repent, i don't know, get some action on it.

I don't have much idea... God is not far away from us.

 

[cvanwey]

I don't know, really don't, maybe put some effort in it? go to some church or another, read more, pray, scream at God in your knees, put heart on it, 'you are going to find God because you are searching for him with all your heart' the bible says something like that.

This is so important i can't stress it enough, God is real. There is some false pastors out there wanting only money but the honest ones i tell you they are not snake oil salesmans at all, God can get close to us and we need to repent, i don't know, get some action on it.

I don't have much idea... God is not far away from us.

Your response does not make any logical sense. I sought after Him for decades. I now ask you, as well as others, to pray on my behalf. And still nothing. God seems to want to contact many, even without their request.

The only logical conclusion, is that the Bible is false about it's assertions, just like every other opposing claimed Holy Book - (for which you and I already agree upon). I'm merely taking my assessment one Book further.

You are likely just as mistaken about your own claims in contact from 'God', as the claims of all others (of opposing 'contact') are... This makes sense, since your biggest claim to 'contact', thus far, seems to be felt 'supernatural love'.

Many/most/all feel deep love, at one point or another. It's more likely so, that you are just confusing this personal feeling, for something 'beyond', without proper justification?.?

Please again remember that 'external world skepticism' points out that there could exist an infinite number of reasons for any felt sense data. Just because you have a euphoric feeling, does not mean it came from not only a god, but YOUR god

 

[Tone]

Is this true for you as well? Are you a believer based upon point #6 of the video? If so, care to share?



- Indoctrination
- Not wanting to live a finite life
- the 'ol "som'n from noth'n" argument got me for a while
- Believed the assertions of my peers, whom I deemed wise

Yeah, I guess, I seek Him because He called.

He called with Power and Authority and also through regular life experiences as well, or, I should say, including the mundane things of life, such as those you listed.

 

[NBB]

Your response does not make any logical sense. I sought after Him for decades. I now ask you, as well as others, to pray on my behalf. And still nothing. God seems to want to contact many, even without their request.

The only logical conclusion, is that the Bible is false about it's assertions, just like every other opposing claimed Holy Book - (for which you and I already agree upon). I'm merely taking my assessment one Book further.

You are likely just as mistaken about your own claims in contact from 'God', as the claims of all others (of opposing 'contact') are... This makes sense, since your biggest claim to 'contact', thus far, seems to be felt 'supernatural love'.

Many/most/all feel deep love, at one point or another. It's more likely so, that you are just confusing this personal feeling, for something 'beyond', without proper justification?.?

Please again remember that 'external world skepticism' points out that there could exist an infinite number of reasons for any felt sense data. Just because you have a euphoric feeling, does not mean it came from not only a god, but YOUR god

It was not euphoric, and also not the only thing i have experienced either.
But i don't know maybe God gives you a 'hello' later.

 

[cvanwey]

Yeah, I guess, I seek Him because He called.

How did you know it was YHWH, verses all competing alternative explanations?

He called with Power and Authority and also through regular life experiences as well, or, I should say, including the mundane things of life, such as those you listed.

How did you know it was YHWH, verses all competing alternative explanations?

 

[Tone]

How did you know it was YHWH, verses all competing alternative explanations?



How did you know it was YHWH, verses all competing alternative explanations?

It was while hearing the gospel preached.

 

[cvanwey]

It was not euphoric, and also not the only thing i have experienced either.
But i don't know maybe God gives you a 'hello' later.

Since you have engaged with me this long, please allow me to have some quick role play with you.

I assert 'agent X' exists. You doubt my assertion. I give you the exact same reasons/excuses as for why 'agent X' has not contacted you.

Can you see my position now????

 

[cvanwey]

It was while hearing the gospel preached.

Not to sound insensitive, but your meter-stick for truth was warm fuzzy feelings, while hearing humans chant phrases for which you already believed?

 

[Tone]

Not to sound insensitive, but your meter-stick for truth was warm fuzzy feelings, while hearing humans chant phrases for which you already believed?

Not solely warm fuzzy feelings. A pastor was preaching the gospel, yes. And, I may have already believed on some level, but this was a different effectual call that took me to a higher level of being...kind of filled me out as an entire person.