Is the Whole of Apologetics Merely a Facade?

[cvanwey]

I think this time you are right @cvanwey the bible says this is not about words and reasoning but the gospel is power from God. Still, there is arguments and reasons to believe for sure, but i don't know if they convert too much people really.

Okay. If the Bible is correct, then the Bible also asserts the power of prayer. Would you mind performing the bottom part of the OP? If not, why not? You could possibly convert me instantly.

 

[NBB]

Okay. If the Bible is correct, then the Bible also asserts the power of prayer. Would you mind performing the bottom part of the OP? If not, why not? You could possibly convert me instantly.

So you want a 'force conversion' or something, that God will show and prove to you?, and if does not happen? God is commanding every human to seek Him. Maybe life corners you and you find yourself wanting for an exit from God, that is better than ignoring him and having a succesful life, because we are hard to convince sometimes, and consider God after we wasted it all, about God, prayer etc, the Holy spirit is very real in the christian life, and also you gain an enemy that will attack because if you are ignoring God he just has you in his pocket and does not bother you.

 

[cvanwey]

So you want a 'force conversion' or something,

No. I'm requesting intercessory prayer. People pray for others all the time. Does it ever work? I'm simply asking that you pray for God to contact me, in a way for which I cannot deny of Him. Knowledge of His existence does not mess with my free will. I can still choose to reject Him. If you do not believe me, then simply acknowledge the story of satan and all the following angels. They know He exists, but they choose to disobey apparently.

Please pray, in line with the many lines of Scripture, that He contacts me. If you will not, why not?

that God will show and prove to you?, and if does not happen? God is commanding every human to seek Him.

I'm asking you to perform intercessory prayer for me. Does intercessory prayer work? If prayer works for you, than this should also work. Seems as though such a request would not be on God's (exclusion list), would it? I sought after Him for decades, and nada... I now humbly request the help of others.

Maybe life corners someone and you find wanting for an exit from God, that is better than ignoring him and having a succesful life, about God, prayer etc, the Holy spirit is very real in the christian life, and also you gain an enemy that he will attack because if you are ignoring God he just has you in his pocket and does not bother you.

If my 'sin' is blocking God's visibility to me, please pray that God clears the way/path. If not, why not? Again, if the Bible is true, than the power of prayer is real.

 

[NBB]

And yes, in line with the many Verses in the Bible, please pray for God to contact me. Do I know what I would do if He does? Honestly, no. Thus, 1) please pray for Him to contact me in a way for which I have no doubt He exists. 2) And if He does not, please ask Him why He will not. And if both requests go unanswered, then please reference the following Verses below, and ask yourself in earnest -- (why should I apply any merit at all to these Verses)? If they do not work in earnest, by a true Christian attempting to bring another to Him, than what the heck IS prayer good for?.?.?.?.?

Ask that question to Jesus, or you doubt? have faith in God and ask Jesus if he exists that you sincerely want to know if you need to change your life or not, he does not fail.

I tell you what, if you don't have enough faith for that, have faith in asking him that you may believe with his help just a bit more, some clue, tell him: Give me Jesus a bit of proof in my interior that you exists something that i can undestand. This is a very important matter, and if you find Jesus you will not regret it, he does not fail.

 

[cvanwey]

Ask that question to Jesus, or you doubt? have faith in God and ask Jesus if he exists that you sincerely want to know if you need to change your life or not, he does not fail.

I tell you what, if you don't have enough faith for that, have faith in asking him that you may believe wotj his help just a bit more, some clue, tell him: Give me Jesus a bit of proof in my interior that you exists something that i can undestand. This is a very important matter, and if you find Jesus you will not regret it, he does not fail.

Yes, the process failed, for me. Unless you are calling me a liar?

But apparently, prayer works for you? Hence, you can resolve this matter quite swiftly. Pray that God gives me a clear sign/signal of His general existence. We know God can do this, as He did with Sal of Tarsus or 'doubting Thomas', for example...

And If I do not receive a sign of His general existence, I can reasonably conclude that prayer does not work for [you] either, and [you] are mistaken about your assertion.

 

[NBB]

Yes, the process failed, for me. Unless you are calling me a liar?

But apparently, prayer works for you? Hence, you can resolve this matter quite swiftly. Pray that God gives me a clear sign/signal of His general existence. We know God can do this, as He did with Sal of Tarsus or 'doubting Thomas', for example...

And If I do not receive a sign of His general existence, I can reasonably conclude that prayer does not work for [you] either, and [you] are mistaken about your assertion.

Prayer can be a 'work' sometimes, i mean we can insist for some time and it seems nothing happens, but when christians get an answer from God, that is a very sweet time.

I want to invest my time in my knees praying for someone i don't know if he cares or not? some skeptic in the internet if you know what i mean, its just that i don't know enough, maybe i underestimate all your struggles.

But i truly feel bad for you because you told me you have been seeking and did not find, God does a lot of things to believers, the Holy spirit is like a safe place, he does not let you have big fears, and he can be a great company, and he can guide us, in my experience i can say with total security Jesus is real.
One time i felt the love of God with so much intensity in all my body and soul. And other things, i'm convinced God is a real as it gets for life.

Also i'm aware that this world is dangerous. we need the protection of God or we may face great danger.

 

[NBB]

Yes, the process failed, for me. Unless you are calling me a liar?

But apparently, prayer works for you? Hence, you can resolve this matter quite swiftly. Pray that God gives me a clear sign/signal of His general existence. We know God can do this, as He did with Sal of Tarsus or 'doubting Thomas', for example...

And If I do not receive a sign of His general existence, I can reasonably conclude that prayer does not work for [you] either, and [you] are mistaken about your assertion.

Why you can conclude God does not exists with a 'negative' but totally reject some other person 'positive' i mean i tell you God exists and does things to people, he has done things to me, they are not hallucinations like atheist like to believe, the Holy spirit, the experiences with him are as real as anything.

 

[cvanwey]

Prayer can be a 'work' sometimes, i mean we can insist for some time and it seems nothing happens, but when christians get an answer from God, that is a very sweet time.

Do you admit your response contradicts Scripture? It works 'sometimes?' Let me cut you off before you respond here. Let's assume that God is not a 'slot machine', and does not answer to 'sinful requests.' Surely the request of a true Christian, asking that He merely contact a skeptic/seeker/doubter, is not off limits, is it?.?.?.?

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer"

"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours"

I want to invest my time in my knees praying for someone i don't know if he cares or not? some skeptic in the internet if you know what i mean, its just that i don't know enough, maybe i underestimate all your struggles.

Wow! You have already spent much more time in this thread, then you ever would in a simple prayer request. In fact, the request will take you all of 5 seconds.... Are you going to? If not, why not?

But i truly feel bad for you because you told me you have been seeking and did not find, God does a lot of things to believers, the Holy spirit is like a safe place, he does not let you have big fears, and he can be a great company, and he can guide us, in my experience i can say with total security Jesus is real.

All these assertions are unfounded and appear blank to me. Anecdotal testimonials are a dime a dozen. I trust you realize 'God claims' come from around the world; many even from opposing faiths. Please perform this 5 second request of intercessory prayer. If you will not, why won't you?

One time i felt the love of God with so much intensity in all my body and soul. And other things, i'm convinced God is a real as it gets for life.

Also i'm aware that this world is dangerous. we need the protection of God or we may face great danger.

Please look up 'external world skepticism'. Please understand that any experience you receive, has an infinite number of plausible sources to attribute and consider. It's interesting how you ruled out all the others so easily? Or maybe you never even considered the possibility of all the others????

 

[cvanwey]

Why you can conclude God does not exists with a 'negative' but totally reject some other person 'positive' i mean i tell you God exists and does things to people, he has done things to me, they are not hallucinations like atheist like to believe, the Holy spirit, the experiences with him are as real as anything.

Thus, you too acknowledge that point #6, from WLC, is the sole reason [you] believe as well? Do you mind if we explore a bit?

Questions #1: What say-you about a Hindu, whom claims real felt experience(s) from their opposing god(s)?

 

[NBB]

Do you admit your response contradicts Scripture? It works 'sometimes?' Let me cut you off before you respond here. Let's assume that God is not a 'slot machine', and does not answer to 'sinful requests.' Surely the request of a true Christian, asking that He merely contact a skeptic/seeker/doubter, is not off limits, is it?.?.?.?

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer"

"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours"



Wow! You have already spent much more time in this thread, then you ever would in a simple prayer request. In fact, the request will take you all of 5 seconds.... Are you going to? If not, why not?



All these assertions are unfounded and appear blank to me. Anecdotal testimonials are a dime a dozen. I trust you realize 'God claims' come from around the world; many even from opposing faiths. Please perform this 5 second request of intercessory prayer. If you will not, why won't you?



Please look up 'external world skepticism'. Please understand that any experience you receive, has an infinite number of plausible sources to attribute and consider. It's interesting how you ruled out all the others so easily? Or maybe you never even considered the possibility of all the others????

I already made a prayer for you several times. But i meant that prayer can be a 'work' in the sense that it can take sometimes time and effort to get an answer, even Jesus prayed a lot alone.

About experiences with God, they give testimony to your conscience that is true, and its the same at touching the keyboard you KNOW you are touching it with your fingers. You also know when God does stuff like that.

 

[NBB]

Thus, you too acknowledge that point #6, from WLC, is the sole reason [you] believe as well? Do you mind if we explore a bit?

Questions #1: What say-you about a Hindu, whom claims real felt experience(s) from their opposing god(s)?

I may conclude their experiences: were some kind of spirit that is not of God, or they are just 'human' spirituality and not from God himself.. etc. But I am not a experienced preacher that could tell you a lot more info on this subject.

Could bring some example of this experiences for me to examine them?

 

[cvanwey]

I already made a prayer for you several times. But i meant that prayer can be a 'work' in the sense that it can take sometimes time and effort to get an answer, even Jesus prayed a lot alone.

I prayed for decades and no answer. What happens if your intercessory prayer request, for me, also perpetually goes unanswered? Will it then be logical to conclude that maybe prayer does not work for your either?

Or, will you formulate another excuse?

About experiences with God, they give testimony to your conscience that is true, and its the same at touching the keyboard you KNOW you are touching it with your fingers. You also know when God does stuff like that.

Did you even read my response? External world skepticism elicits intellectual honesty. You claim you felt 'intense love', and attributed this to (God's contact). You do realize that 'intense love' can have many explanations? How did you rule all of the other plausible reasons out?

 

[cvanwey]

I may conclude their experiences: were some kind of spirit that is not of God, or they are just 'human' spirituality and not from God himself.. etc. But I am not a experienced preacher that could tell you a lot more info on this subject.

Could bring some example of this experiences for me to examine them?

Okay, let's circle this back to your claim. You stated:

"One time i felt the love of God with so much intensity in all my body and soul."

Is it possible that this was not from YHWH???

Surely you must acknowledge that a Hindu can state the exact same phenomenon as your statement above? Why was yours the real-deal, and theirs was somewhat synthetic?

And furthermore, why do you automatically equate strong feelings of love to YHWH?

 

[NBB]

I prayed for decades and no answer. What happens if your intercessory prayer request, for me, also perpetually goes unanswered? Will it then be logical to conclude that maybe prayer does not work for your either?

Or, will you formulate another excuse?



Did you even read my response? External world skepticism elicits intellectual honesty. You claim you felt 'intense love', and attributed this to (God's contact). You do realize that 'intense love' can have many explanations? How did you rule all of the other plausible reasons out?

Anyway, i don't know if i can help, you seem a bit cynical even with everything said and i'm doing my best to trying to help a bit.

I am very jelaous of myself, and going after lies and deceptions is a very sad thing indeed. But God is no deception.

 

[NBB]

Okay, let's circle this back to your claim. You stated:

"One time i felt the love of God with so much intensity in all my body and soul."

Is it possible that this was not from YHWH???

Surely you must acknowledge that a Hindu can state the exact same phenomenon as your statement above? Why was yours the real-deal, and theirs was somewhat synthetic?

And furthermore, why do you automatically equate strong feelings of love to YHWH?

Because it was supernatural love, and very strong, it was not human emotion, or any feeling you can have in your body. Also we christians know that in some oriental religions, they do bad spiritual practices that God does not appove, and they not find God but other harmful things, this is very known in christianity.

 

[cvanwey]

Anyway, i don't know if i can help, you seem a bit cynical even with everything said and i'm doing my best to trying to help a bit.

Asking follow-up questions is being 'cynical'?

Is it even possible that my questions raise enough pause, or challenge the claimed veracity of your possibly unfounded assertions???

And I appreciate your responses. Truly I do. I'm not attacking you. I'm merely questioning your reasoning for your 'conclusions.' If you care not to engage, then I guess I understand.... But this seems to touch at the 'heart' of the reason for your beliefs. And I would certainly like to see if such 'justifications' appear warranted

I am very jelaous of myself, and going after lies and deceptions is a very sad thing indeed. But God is no deception.

???

I'll ask in a different way. HOW were you able to conclude God, while confidently excluding countless alternative explanations?

 

[cvanwey]

Because it was supernatural love, and very strong, it was not human emotion, or any feeling you can have in your body.

How do you know it was 'supernatural love'?

And even if it was, how do you know it was from YHWH, and NOT some other god(s), deity, ghost, spirit, apparition, other?

Also we christians know that in some oriental religions, they do bad spiritual practices that God does not appove, and they not find God but other harmful things, this is very known in christianity.

We are right back at the beginning, to a question you honestly did not address. I'll try asking in a different way.

If we have billions of anecdotal claims of contact from all these god(s), all over the world, how do we determine which ones are real and which ones are false? Is it exclusively based upon the 'level of love'? If so, why would a creating agent HAVE to elicit 'love'? Couldn't a creating deity still be our creator, but not care about love? Maybe love is just another human emotion, like all the other emotions we feel?

 

[Tone]

personal experience is why we believe in science,

Good point.

I sought after Him for decades, and nada... I now humbly request the help of others.

Why did you seek Him?

 

[cvanwey]

Good point.

Is this true for you as well? Are you a believer based upon point #6 of the video? If so, care to share?

Why did you seek Him?

- Indoctrination
- Not wanting to live a finite life
- the 'ol "som'n from noth'n" argument got me for a while
- Believed the assertions of my peers, whom I deemed wise

 

[InterestedAtheist]

have faith in God and ask Jesus if he exists that you sincerely want to know if you need to change your life or not, he does not fail.

That sounds very much like @cvanwey is saying he wants to know why he should believe in God, and you're answering that he should begin by believing in God.

If I told you of a God that I believed in, and told you that you could have proof of His existence if you would just have faith that He existed, would that make sense?