Is the Whole of Apologetics Merely a Facade?

[URA]

I'll interject here. I would agree that NOTHING can be proven 'absolute'? Which kind of contradicts itself also, as I just made an 'absolute' assertion. But I digress... We can only invoke a percentage of certainty. Case/point:

Using logic, what's the likelihood you can produce a married-bachelor? .000001%?
What's the likelihood you exist? 99+%?

We run on degrees of 'certainty'.

Where would you place your specific God, on this barometer - or percentage/degree of certainty?



Yes, I have found it to be a 'fan favorite' among many encountered theistic arguments.




And maybe likely so-to will be this one See below...



Agree



If a philosophy 101 teacher had a nickel for every time they had to talk about this concept



The entire argument could go kaput, if the 'universe' is found to be eternal. Logically, to then invoke a creator, at all, would then become nonsensical or irrational.

And if our 'universe' is finite, it still may not violate all known laws, as maybe our current 'universe' sprung from a prior one, or other, or other, or other.

Maybe infinite regress is a 'thing'????

other........



EVEN IF a God exists, which one, or which ones, and what ARE His moral predicates/requirements? I trust we are in agreements that the path to suggested or asserted 'eternal bliss', even under concluded theism, and even monotheism, is up for MAJOR debate. The existence of God itself gets us virtually no closer to what you state (i.e.) "If he is real, then we need to believe in him for eternal reward"

Aside from the many opposing factions, which exist under the Abrahamic religion alone, who's to say any of them are even what God wants. Maybe God is a 'sadistic voyeur'? Maybe God is indifferent to your worship of Him. Maybe all ascribed canons in current circulation, are incorrect? Maybe God does not contact us at all. Maybe God wants to see how we handle life without knowing for sure. Maybe God does not care. Maybe there exists no heaven. God just created us for his amusement.

You get the picture, Pascal's Wager really gets us no closer to anything. Your 'ideology' is one of a million, just like any one I may choose.



If I am to believe what the BIBLE says, it tells me, or at least strongly infers, that God wants a personal relationship with me. I tried this for years and years. I felt nothing. Logically, what am I to conclude?

- I'm either blocked by sin
- God continues to wait perpetually
- God tells you He will answer prayer, which is a logical contradiction
- Or maybe, just maybe, like the video suggests, many relate personal experience immediately to some external 'cause'

*************

Can you please answer my question now

You state "God revealed Himself to you". Taking into account "external world skepticism", how are you so sure? Can you please explain how God revealed Himself to you, and why there is no doubt?

First of all, I just want to mention that I think this is the best refutation of Pascal's Wager I've ever seen; congratulations!

Can you please answer my question now

You don't like the fine art of dancing around questions? In any case, I believe I provided useful background for my response, though I didn't actually realize that I never directly addressed the question!

You state "God revealed Himself to you". Taking into account "external world skepticism", how are you so sure? Can you please explain how God revealed Himself to you, and why there is no doubt?

There is no doubt? Who said there is no doubt? (Probably me, but let me explain).

There needs to be doubt for faith to live; otherwise, what good is faith? I have faith in science & that has rarely involved doubt. Specific scientific ideas may have doubt, but the framework of science seems irrefutable. Yet faith in God will always involve doubt, as you may have noticed when I dodged your question on the percentage likelihood of God's existence (which, oddly enough, my old roommate Nathan asked the same thing!). Of course I believe in God, and I would consider His existence chance to be 100%, sometimes. But unlike other ideas, faith is also tied to emotions, to my own state of life. If I'm having a really bad day & crises are happening & I have mental illness, that doesn't affect the percentage I would give for a married bachelor. Yet a personal God comes with the same issues as any other personal relationship. Why has God allowed this to happen? Why hasn't He given you a personal experience? What's taking Him so long? Is there even anyone up there? Hello?

You mention that you grew up religious-ish; how familiar are you with the Psalms? A lot of them cry out in despair, doubting so much about God. Even Jesus Christ Himself famously exclaimed (quoting the opening of Psalm 22), "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" Yet the very Psalm Jesus quotes ends in victory! The final lines are: "They will proclaim his [God's] righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!"

Taking into account external world skepticism, I can't say anything. Honestly, I can't exactly say what it is that leads me to understand my own experiences as God Himself. Perhaps it is how God

Have I shared this yet? Part of why I share this video is in case particular individual experiences interest you, and this man has some of the most powerful & meaningful divine experiences I've ever heard of. Part of it is to mention another piece of personal experiences. Because this man's personal experiences have the same message as mine, this gives more credibility to what I believe. So many testimonies have the same basic pieces; I thought I was happy, there was an emptiness, something bad happened, I turned to God, He pulled me through, no more emptiness, praise be to Jesus Christ! This is often said to be proof of the same Spirit, though of course, this is open to far more debate than this thread calls for.

And if watching this video makes you wonder, "If God can do this for John, why can't He do it for me?", you are not alone. I don't know how many prayer conversations I've had with God, asking the same questions. It's been said that God always reveals Himself to people at the moment of their death, for a final chance to choose redemption or condemnation. Yet occasionally it happens during a person's lifetime, as is demonstrated here, or in Saul of Tarsus, or other dramatic instances.

I would recommend the book Blue Like Jazz to you. I picked it up at a thrift shop, hoping for a book about music (blues & jazz are two of my favorite genres). But I saw the subtitle, "Non-religious thoughts on Christian spirituality", and I knew it would be interesting, in a different way. It's an easy read, just a spiritual journey of a guy who decided to write a book about it. There's no real conclusion to the story, as I think we can all say, regardless of our spirituality. It's something that doesn't really begin, and never really ends.

I still have a few more thoughts, but I want to leave it at this. And if you're interested, I can find my copy of the book & tell you the author, to make sure you pick up the right one.

 

[Tone]

Thank you for your response. I gather you too agree that apologetics is really of no concern, as the title suggests. Apologetics neither brought you to your faith. Nor, can apologetics likely lead a non-believer to faith. It's really all about personal experiences.

You're welcome.

Apologetics brings every single person to faith.

Apologetics is a major concern since we are human beings and a good apologetic will deal with every aspect of our beings.

Personal experience is an apologetic.


Let me ask you something.

How do you know anything at all except from personal experience?

 

[cvanwey]

First of all, I just want to mention that I think this is the best refutation of Pascal's Wager I've ever seen; congratulations!

Why thank you! But as we know, I could, from your perception, 'defeat' every single argument you place forth; and it likely won't matter in the slightest Because, as the title suggests, "apologetics looks to be a facade."

You don't like the fine art of dancing around questions? In any case, I believe I provided useful background for my response, though I didn't actually realize that I never directly addressed the question!

There is no doubt? Who said there is no doubt? (Probably me, but let me explain).

If you do not want to share, I understand. But I would really like to hear the details of your direct and specific encounter? And how you went about knowing it was not only from a God, but your asserted God?

There needs to be doubt for faith to live; otherwise, what good is faith?

Is faith a 'good' thing? I will quote the late/great Bertrand Russell, yet again:

We may define "faith" as the firm belief in something for which there is no evidence. Where there is evidence, no one speaks of "faith." We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence. The substitution of emotion for evidence is apt to lead to strife, since different groups, substitute different emotions.

I have faith in science & that has rarely involved doubt. Specific scientific ideas may have doubt, but the framework of science seems irrefutable.

Faith can mean many things. It might be interchanges with belief and/or trust and/or to discern ingested evidence. Heck, you might even use it as your mechanism to determine a 'fact'. Such as stated above, "the earth is a sphere." -- You have to have faith.

But in what direct context/definition are you using 'faith', when it comes to concluding God????

Yet faith in God will always involve doubt, as you may have noticed when I dodged your question on the percentage likelihood of God's existence (which, oddly enough, my old roommate Nathan asked the same thing!). Of course I believe in God, and I would consider His existence chance to be 100%, sometimes. But unlike other ideas, faith is also tied to emotions, to my own state of life

I was under the impression we already resolved this? God states 'every knee will bow, every tongue will confess." God also reveals to many; past and present. Satan does not deny His existence, etc........

Are you saying you have doubt of His mere existence???? Let's test this...

Please give me a percentage of the following two statements:

1. Trump is the current president of the U.S.? (0 -100%)
2. Your specific God exists? (0 - 100%)

If I'm having a really bad day & crises are happening & I have mental illness, that doesn't affect the percentage I would give for a married bachelor. Yet a personal God comes with the same issues as any other personal relationship. Why has God allowed this to happen? Why hasn't He given you a personal experience? What's taking Him so long? Is there even anyone up there? Hello?

Ironically, hardships often elevate belief in deities. 'God is mysterious'. 'God's ways are beyond our level of understanding.' "We do not possess the capacity to understand all the ways of God". Sound familiar?

But the question still remains... If God wants nothing more but to have a personal relationship, seems quite odd He goes about it seemingly in such a finicky and fickle way?

You mention that you grew up religious-ish; how familiar are you with the Psalms? A lot of them cry out in despair, doubting so much about God. Even Jesus Christ Himself famously exclaimed (quoting the opening of Psalm 22), "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" Yet the very Psalm Jesus quotes ends in victory! The final lines are: "They will proclaim his [God's] righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!"

Raised Catholic, converted to a non-denom in early adulthood.

When reading the Bible, my take is that "He took human form, and experienced some of the flaws of the feelings of humans." --- While remaining perfect at the same time?.?.?.?.

If God is truly aware that many will doubt, seems odd that He chooses to be the best hide-and-seek contestant there ever will be?

Taking into account external world skepticism, I can't say anything. Honestly, I can't exactly say what it is that leads me to understand my own experiences as God Himself.

This is what I find so interesting. I can have a completely intelligent and rational discourse about all sorts of topics in apologetics. But when pressed to give THE reason for one's belief, it seems to be on shakey ground, or it buckles quite evidently?.?.

Do you think that maybe you might want to evaluate a bit more here???? We are only speaking about likely one of the most important assertions ever ---- that you speak to [the God].

Have I shared this yet? Part of why I share this video is in case particular individual experiences interest you, and this man has some of the most powerful & meaningful divine experiences I've ever heard of. Part of it is to mention another piece of personal experiences. Because this man's personal experiences have the same message as mine, this gives more credibility to what I believe. So many testimonies have the same basic pieces; I thought I was happy, there was an emptiness, something bad happened, I turned to God, He pulled me through, no more emptiness, praise be to Jesus Christ! This is often said to be proof of the same Spirit, though of course, this is open to far more debate than this thread calls for.

And if watching this video makes you wonder, "If God can do this for John, why can't He do it for me?", you are not alone. I don't know how many prayer conversations I've had with God, asking the same questions. It's been said that God always reveals Himself to people at the moment of their death, for a final chance to choose redemption or condemnation. Yet occasionally it happens during a person's lifetime, as is demonstrated here, or in Saul of Tarsus, or other dramatic instances.

I would recommend the book Blue Like Jazz to you. I picked it up at a thrift shop, hoping for a book about music (blues & jazz are two of my favorite genres). But I saw the subtitle, "Non-religious thoughts on Christian spirituality", and I knew it would be interesting, in a different way. It's an easy read, just a spiritual journey of a guy who decided to write a book about it. There's no real conclusion to the story, as I think we can all say, regardless of our spirituality. It's something that doesn't really begin, and never really ends.

I still have a few more thoughts, but I want to leave it at this. And if you're interested, I can find my copy of the book & tell you the author, to make sure you pick up the right one.

Honestly, at this point, I want to hear your story. I can find countless anecdotal experiences from others I did watch the video, but I choose not to comment, for now anyways As you might guess, you might already know some things I might already say.

 

[cvanwey]

You're welcome.

Apologetics brings every single person to faith.

Apologetics is a major concern since we are human beings and a good apologetic will deal with every aspect of our beings.

Personal experience is an apologetic.


Let me ask you something.

How do you know anything at all except from personal experience?

You did not address my response. That's okay.... I'll formulate my own pre-emptive conclusions, until you demonstrate otherwise. Here is it again, for your convenience in red:

I actually believe you when you state you think you really spoke to God. But I have to bring up a blaring point in the video. Please fast forward to minute number (9:02 to 13:00) and (21:25 to 21:35).

Is it possible that when you are 'in the zone', your emotions can really go to work? I mean, we have to ask ourselves, many of these experiences cannot all be from God, can they? And yet they probably all feel genuine to the person whom experiences them. And many even witness them.

Which ones are real? I gather many will claim a similar story to yours. But it's quite possible some of them, or more, are not 'real'.

********************

You think it would be more prudent to narrow the 'apologetics' topics down accordingly?

Personal testimonials and anecdotal experiences seems to be one of the the only 'aces in the hole' apologists have, or adhere to.... Ask the leading apologist WLC

 

[Tone]

your emotions can really go to work? I mean, we have to ask ourselves, many of these experiences cannot all be from God, can they? And yet they probably all feel genuine to the person whom experiences them. And many even witness them.

Which ones are real? I gather many will claim a similar story to yours. But it's quite possible some of them, or more, are not 'real'.

The thing about emotions is that they are often unconscious processes so how do you keep track of all yours?

You can ask the same questions about every experience you've ever had.

How do you even know anything is real?

 

[Tone]

I think what Professor Dawkins was saying is that the brain is quite capable of producing (and often does) amazingly realistic experiences that can easily be mistaken for interactions with ghosts, demons or gods. Or God.

Yeah so how do you know any of your experiences are real...at all?

 

[cvanwey]

The thing about emotions is that they are often unconscious processes so how do you keep track of all yours?

You can ask the same questions about every experience you've ever had.

How do you even know anything is real?

Nice avoidance there (attempt #3):

I actually believe you when you state you think you really spoke to God. But I have to bring up a blaring point in the video. Please fast forward to minute number (9:02 to 13:00) and (21:25 to 21:35).

Is it possible that when you are 'in the zone', your emotions can really go to work? I mean, we have to ask ourselves, many of these experiences cannot all be from God, can they? And yet they probably all feel genuine to the person whom experiences them. And many even witness them.

Which ones are real? I gather many will claim a similar story to yours. But it's quite possible some of them, or more, are not 'real'.

 

[Tone]

When reading the Bible, my take is that "He took human form, and experienced some of the flaws of the feelings of humans." --- While remaining perfect at the same time?.?.?.?.

If God is truly aware that many will doubt, seems odd that He chooses to be the best hide-and-seek contestant there ever will be?

Here you stated what you at one time believed and professed and in the next paragraph you say that He is hiding.

Sounds like the contradiction was from within yourself.

Well, I believed and professed the same thing and, therefore, I know He is not hiding, because that is His revelation to me.

Is it possible that when you are 'in the zone', your emotions can really go to work?

I'm not sure what you mean here. When I'm in the zone I'm ballin outta control, hittin from everywhere...

I mean, we have to ask ourselves, many of these experiences cannot all be from God, can they? And yet they probably all feel genuine to the person whom experiences them. And many even witness them.

Which experiences?

Which ones are real? I gather many will claim a similar story to yours. But it's quite possible some of them, or more, are not 'real'.

What do you mean by this?

 

[URA]

If you do not want to share, I understand. But I would really like to hear the details of your direct and specific encounter? And how you went about knowing it was not only from a God, but your asserted God?

Alright, I got some down time. My college classes started yesterday, so my responses will likely be less speedy from now on.

"Direct and specific encounter" may not be the best term to use for what I had, at least initially, but I suppose just describing everything here would be better than discussing terms.

Junior year of high school, Feb. 2016. My girlfriend of almost a year dumped me over online text message. I had no clue what to do, I was more dazed & confused & hurt than at any other time in my life, and I was so overwhelmed by everything going on when I expected things to get better & it all just crashed & ended...with the stylus-pen I used to tap away at the touch-screens, I clicked out the pen & just about rammed it into my arm, when something threw it out of my hand & across the room (I was going to reach for it again if it would've dropped closer, I think, but my mind was nuts & I'm just thankful that nothing drastic happened). Whether this was the hand of God or just a piece of bodily reflex, or God working through reflex, I really can't say.

Afterwards, I don't remember much, but I remember just being so mentally drained & rattled that I was just wondering what I could even do. I couldn't remember much from the past (I really did lose a lot of memories, the mental shock was that drastic), I had no clue about the future, all I was in the present was dazed & confused & hurt like never before...it kind of reminded me of something that could be a plot line in those old sci-fi stories I love. A man recovers from a spaceship crash, loses his memories, and has to choose what manner to reconstruct his life. Good opening to a story; these old sci-fi stories have really resonated with me in a lot of ways, and this was the last hurray for Asimov & Bradbury & the like to really help me through life.

So with this bit of consolation in mind, I still had no clue what to do. Clearly, what I had done before wasn't working (not that I could remember much of it anyway), and I just thought, "Well, I've heard a lot about this God thing. Let's give that a try."

At this point, I started walking down a different path, but I wouldn't say I was "reborn" or "converted" or anything of the sort--yet. Senior year came, I was gradually recovering, and there's a whole subplot with Paige at this point in my life. To super-summarize, she was a sweet girl I cared about that surrounded herself with the worst guys in the school. At a rare point when she was single (it was a different guy every month, but she was normally taken), it was timed well for senior prom to come up. I knew she was going to say no, because I knew she was already going to have a different guy in mind (and that's exactly what happened), but I knew that I could use my hurt for good, I knew that this God thing was starting to work for me, and in all honesty, I really did like Paige. But more than anything I wanted, I knew she needed to know that she was worthy of someone decent liking her. So I asked her, and I was creative & sweet about it, and she said no, and I haven't seen her since high school (graduated in 2017). But Paige was the turning point in my life; it was through her, and all the jerks that tried to use her for themselves, that the best in me was brought out. "Dying to self" is something that you may have heard about from Christians, and it doesn't make much sense, until you live it. I still think that doing this for Paige was the best thing I ever did for the first 18 years of my life, my crowning achievement of high school, even though it's a crown of thorns.

College, freshman year, August 2017. Packing for my dorm, this whole God thing had slipped away over time, and I almost didn't bring anything religious. But there was a Bible I got as a graduation gift from a beloved teacher of mine, and remembering that He literally did save my life (I was very convinced that it was the hand of God that saved my life), I packed it as one of the last things. The first few weeks of college were fun, but I was looking for a girlfriend, and that wasn't going so well. I remember laying on my bed, in my very nice dorm, not being able to move because my loneliness was all-consuming. It felt so strange, that I should be surrounded by so many blessings, but this 1 desire I can't fulfill would take over everything else.

Recalling the disastrous break-up from high school, I remember praying something like, "Clearly, I can't do this on my own. God, you take over." I joined the Christian Campus House, I started looking up Catholic dating advice (the secular advice was mostly for getting laid, and the generically Christian advice kept contradicting with each other as Protestants had such different ideas of what the Bible meant). I came across a man named Jason Evert, who I will always be thankful for, and still advertise his talks under my profile photo on these forums. His talks seemed the best, and when I picked up a CD from the back of church, "How to meet your soulmate without losing your soul", some of it was alright, some of it didn't make a lot of sense (I later found out this talk was meant for girls!), but he made mention of studying the Theology of the Body.

This interested me, so I looked into it, and that's when I was introduced to Evert's book, Theology of His Body/Theology of Her Body, and a world of fascination, hope, and fulfillment with the divine plan for dating. To this day, I have yet to have another girlfriend, but the sting of loneliness was evaporated when my Catholic prayers & dating advice & continual striving for being more like Christ took over my life.

Next experience...this one would be a direct one, if you're keeping score. This was a couple months into my first year of college. I had begun going to Adult Ed at the Catholic church across the street (I found the room by walking into the wrong building...different story!). I had been very enthusiastic about going to Mass, Jason Evert talks were something I watched before I would get my homework done, and the Book of James was fascinating, as it was exactly the direct advice of how to live that I needed.

My work-study job was in the library at this point, where I was behind a desk for 8 hours a day, 1 day a week. Despite only happening on Sundays, this was still enough to make me realize that I can't stand desk jobs...and my branch of engineering was almost exclusively desk jobs. So I had switched jobs to being a janitor in the cafeteria, and I was pondering changing majors, but I've wanted to do engineering so long, I didn't know what else to consider. Honestly, I think I would've changed majors to Social Studies Education at that point, if it hadn't been for what had happened next.

One day, I believe it was October, I was spaced out & sweeping the floors as usual. The kitchen workers were chopping vegetables, and doing whatever kitchen workers do between meals, while I was a decent distance away from there, just sweeping up some crumbs from under a table. Suddenly, I was hit by an all-consuming voice; not that it was loud, for the tone was a little stern, but conversational, like a matter-of-fact statement. It's just that the voice was the only thing I was aware of; "You know you'll never be happy as an engineer. Go, get a degree in Theology, and teach that."

I stood back confused, looking around to see if anyone else had heard that voice. No, the cooks were just chopping vegetables, setting up the salad bar, and doing their business as if nothing had happened. To them, I suppose nothing did. But this voice was a life-plan changer for me. As odd as it was, I knew this voice was right; I was very disillusioned with engineering at this point (the meticulous math needed for the degree was another concern of mine), and from the Adult Ed classes at the Catholic Church, I had become fascinated with theology from The Bible Timeline, an incredible video series from Jeff Cavins that shows the entire story of salvation, from Creation to the Church.

Still, I wasn't quite sure. Despite being hit with overwhelming evidence that there was something divine & incredible that just happened, much like the Apostles after the Resurrection, I still couldn't make sense of it.

That Sunday: I was carrying on a habit I developed, where I would go to Catholic Mass on Saturday night, then walk to another church on Sunday, just out of curiosity about how other churches do it. The Methodist minister was giving a sermon on the Book of Acts, where he said, "Now here's an interesting piece of the story--God speaks directly to Peter, giving him direct life advice, he does it, and it's amazing!"

Okay....

Monday: Adult Ed at the Catholic Church. The Bible Timeline DVD series was still being shown, and this week, Jeff Cavins was talking about the Book of Acts! "Now here's some interesting things that happen in the story! Here's Saul, walking down to Damascus, when God speaks directly to him!"

Okay........

Tuesday: Tuesday Night Worship, a non-denominational service from the Christian Campus House. The campus minister is up there, and says, "Hey, guys! Tonight, we're looking at the Book of Acts! In this chapter, God speaks directly to..."

At which point, I look up, and just about yell out, "Alright, I get it!"


Is this sufficient for your inquiry? I suppose my placing this on the Christian God in particular was largely through Christ's self-denial bringing about the greatest good, as happened with my affection for Paige, despite knowing that I wouldn't even get a hug out of the deal. The direct voice I received was unlike anything I had experienced before, and had to be from someone that knew me, my past, and my future. By the way, I'm currently a Theology student with a 4.0, enjoying the work, and looking into the Byzantine Catholic priesthood! Some Divine Voice that sets me on the right path would have to be omniscient & all those other omnis, and caring enough to do so. This degree is inherently service to God, and it's a kind of service that brings out fulfillment within me; lines up remarkably well with Christian spirituality! Furthermore, the voice was affirmed in 3 different Christian settings & nowhere else, before I got accepted to Catholic university. The Book of Acts was very instrumental.

So all this being said...

This is what I find so interesting. I can have a completely intelligent and rational discourse about all sorts of topics in apologetics. But when pressed to give THE reason for one's belief, it seems to be on shakey ground, or it buckles quite evidently?.?.

I suppose it really is personal experience that brought me to faith, at least, to strong faith in God. But does this sound like shaky ground? I don't ask this with a snarky tone, but genuinely; despite only being personal experience that has brought me where I am today, is there anything that sufficiently buckles about my reason for having strong faith?

Even if there is a chance that my God doesn't exist (I still can't put a number to it, but that's a topic for a later post), this really does bring out more in me than I used to think possible & it sets my life path to something more satisfying that what I could do on my own. Perhaps this wager will come up null, but I gained a lot in the process, and I see no reason to stop now.

Peace & all good,
Alex

 

[Caliban]

Ask that question to Jesus, or you doubt? have faith in God and ask Jesus if he exists that you sincerely want to know if you need to change your life or not, he does not fail.

What would you say to those who have sincerely begged Jesus for his presence in prayer and humility and who received no answer?

 

[Caliban]

How do you know anything at all except from personal experience?

Personal experience is a horrible path to determining truth. Eyewitness testimony has been proved unreliable and people claim all sorts of wild experiences. If I took your approach, I would have to give equal weight to your claim that a God exists as to those claiming they were abducted by aliens.

A better approach to determining truth is the scientific verification of phenomena by repeatable experimentation.

 

[Tone]

the scientific verification of phenomena by repeatable experimentation.

And how will you interface with phenomena?

*And conduct experiments?

**In other words how will you do science?

Using your experiential faculties correct?

 

[Tone]

What would you say to those who have sincerely begged Jesus for his presence in prayer and humility and who received no answer?

"The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh. Blessed be the Name of the Lord."

Have you heard of Job?

Abba Yah, Breathe Your Holy Breath deep into every aspect of our beings--intellect, will, emotions, imaginations, bodies, and call us again and again, that we may seek Your Face, regardless of height, depth, or any other thing. In Yahshua the Messiah's Name. Amen.

 

[Caliban]

And how will you interface with phenomena?

*And conduct experiments?

**In other words how will you do science?

Using your experiential faculties correct?

None of you questions make sense to me. We do science--it isn't a hypothetical. We observe and test phenomena--it isn't a mystery.

What are you really asking?

 

[Caliban]

Have you heard of Job?

Ya, I read the book.

 

[Tone]

None of you questions make sense to me. We do science--it isn't a hypothetical. We observe and test phenomena--it isn't a mystery.

What are you really asking?

Personal experience is a horrible path to determining truth.

Im trying to point out that you rely on personal experience for science.

 

[Caliban]

Im trying to point out that you rely on personal experience for science.

No , I never do. I rely on a method of replication. You are using loose terminology to equate actual objective experience with subjective experience. This is how a bait and switch occurs.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Yeah so how do you know any of your experiences are real...at all?

I don't think this is a line of inquiry that is likely to end up proving God's existence.

 

[Tone]

I don't think this is a line of inquiry that is likely to end up proving God's existence.

I'm not trying to do that.

 

[cvanwey]

Here you stated what you at one time believed and professed and in the next paragraph you say that He is hiding.

Sounds like the contradiction was from within yourself.

Well, I believed and professed the same thing and, therefore, I know He is not hiding, because that is His revelation to me.

I'm not sure what you are taking about exactly here?

I'm not sure what you mean here. When I'm in the zone I'm ballin outta control, hittin from everywhere...

Did you watch the small sections of the video, as suggested? As you will see, it looks that we have several encounters with 'God', with many witnesses. And yet, they are all completely different. And some appear to be summoned, using differing methods; and maybe even different 'god(s)'. Is it possible at lest most of them are not 'real' occurrences? How were you able to know yours was real, while there's, even withstanding many witnesses, are not genuine? Is it possible you were swept up in the moment?

Which experiences?

How much more clear could I have been? (09:02 - 13:00) and (21:25 - 21:35) of the provided video. They cannot all be from God, can they? How do you distinguish yours as real, while discarding others?

What do you mean by this?

Please see above....

As an example, go to any Pentecostal church. Practically everyone there, at one point or another, stands up and 'speaks in tongues' to 'God'. Then go to a Catholic church. You don't see that. Interesting how God communicates...?