Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

[iamlamad]

John 12:31-33 is speaking about the cross. Please read the text before hitting the submit button. It shows how our sin has already been paid for through Christs death. Christ uses the same type of language in John 12 as He did in Revelation 12:31-33, when, shortly before the Cross, He predicted the historic and eternal downfall of Satan through the cross. Jesus prophesied, “now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die” (John 12:31-33).

Here again we have another clear confirmation as to the timing of the banishment of Satan. Christ deliberately connects the time of His death to the time when Satan “the prince of this world” would finally be “cast out.” There, He gloriously dethroned Satan from his previous, largely unchallenged, global earthly rule and his place of accusation in heaven. Satan’s movement, liberties and sway on earth and in heaven received a severe blow.

“now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out

now: Strong's: frequently it denotes a somewhat extended portion of present time as opposed to a former state of things:

The truth is, when Jesus died, fulfilling the law, paying the price for all sin, He made it LEGAL to cast Satan out. We find the actual event written in Revelation 12, and will happen at the midpoint (marked by the 7th trumpet) of the future 70th week of Daniel.

How interesting, John placed a FUTURE tense word right after the "now." "SHALL" is future - pointing to the time of the 70th week and the midpoint of that week, when Michael will go to war with Satan and cast him down - and when the court room of heaven will declare that the kingdoms of the world will be taken from Satan and given to our Lord Jesus. Satan will then NO LONGER be the "god of this world."

 

[sovereigngrace]

“now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out

now: Strong's: frequently it denotes a somewhat extended portion of present time as opposed to a former state of things:

The truth is, when Jesus died, fulfilling the law, paying the price for all sin, He made it LEGAL to cast Satan out. We find the actual event written in Revelation 12, and will happen at the midpoint (marked by the 7th trumpet) of the future 70th week of Daniel.

How interesting, John placed a FUTURE tense word right after the "now." "SHALL" is future - pointing to the time of the 70th week and the midpoint of that week, when Michael will go to war with Satan and cast him down - and when the court room of heaven will declare that the kingdoms of the world will be taken from Satan and given to our Lord Jesus. Satan will then NO LONGER be the "god of this world."

The word "now" meant imminent. The cross of course was future to when Jesus predicted Satan's defeat and was here specifically identified with the cross-work. It has absolutely nothing to do with your imaginary future 7-year-trib.

 

[BABerean2]

Revelation talks of TWO general resurrections: one for the righteous, and one for the sinner.

Christ describes one resurrection and judgment of all the dead in John 5.
The same is found in Revelation 11:18.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


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[iamlamad]

The word "now" meant imminent. The cross of course was future to when Jesus predicted Satan's defeat and was here specifically identified with the cross-work. It has absolutely nothing to do with your imaginary future 7-year-trib.

Strong's disagrees: "frequently it denotes a somewhat extended portion of present time as opposed to a former state of things"

You can dream all you want, but I have said over and over, we form doctrine from ALL end times scripture, not isolated verses. (perhaps amil is the exception.)

If Satan was cast down then, when jesus died, then much of what Paul wrote about Satan would be false. Sorry, but I am going to believe Paul, that AFTER Jesus died, Satan was STILL the god of this world.

 

[iamlamad]

Christ describes one resurrection and judgment of all the dead in John 5.
The same is found in Revelation 11:18.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
.

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Right: two and ONLY TWO resurrections by title (not by time): the primary resurrection of Rev. 20: for the righteous; and then the 2nd death resurrection of Rev, 20 for the damned.

ALL of the righteous, at various times, including Jesus, will take part in the primary or chief of resurrections. All others in the other resurrection.

 

[Timtofly]

I agreed with you up to that point.

The white robes they are given is (Christ's) righteousness. They are not resurrected yet. John does not state that the white robes "are their glorified bodies", nor does that part of the passage even imply it.

The righteousness of Christ is the glorification process. It is the total restoration of being a son of God. The process only starts on earth. It is not finished until the 5th and 6th seal. That is when Christ presents the church to God as complete.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Strong's disagrees: "frequently it denotes a somewhat extended portion of present time as opposed to a former state of things"

You can dream all you want, but I have said over and over, we form doctrine from ALL end times scripture, not isolated verses. (perhaps amil is the exception.)

If Satan was cast down then, when jesus died, then much of what Paul wrote about Satan would be false. Sorry, but I am going to believe Paul, that AFTER Jesus died, Satan was STILL the god of this world.

This is rich coming from a Premil that has zero corroboration for this eschatological theory. The mistake you make is to interpret the rest of Scripture by your opinion of one lone highly-symbolic much-debated chapter in scripture. The evidence of the error of your position is the fact you lack any corroboration for every tenet of Premil. All you have is your private opinion of one chapter.

If I am wrong, please provide me with clear corroboration for these main tenets:

1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
2. Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?
3. What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
4. Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?
5. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them?

 

[Timtofly]

Those who understand the fulfillment of the New Covenant at Calvary reject the Premill doctrine.

I reject Premill as a doctrine. It is a time frame. Amil are just as wrong as those who turn it into a doctrine. They are only inventing nonsense to combat man's doctrine.

 

[Timtofly]

I see now: you just created that term, "robe of white" from human imagination.

Question: does God's glory come from Him putting on some robe that glows brightly?
At the transfiguration, did Jesus glory come from some supernatural "robe" that He put on that glowed brightly?

The truth is, GOD IS LIGHT. Just as GOD IS LOVE, then GOD IS ALSO LIGHT. (1 John 1:5)
In other words, God needs to special "robe" to create light, for He IS light. Therefore I disagree with your term: "robe of light."

John states the glorified bodies are given in the 5th seal to all those dead in Christ. It cannot be just martyrs. The church is one body. So we are to take YOUR word for this, since you disagree with John? Read it carefully:

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Here are some other translations:
the souls of them that were slain
the souls of those who had been slaughtered
the souls of those whose lives had been sacrificed
the souls of those who had been put to death
the souls of everyone who had been killed
who had been martyred for preaching the Word of God
who had been martyred for the word of God
having been slain as martyrs

You imagine this is all those who are dead in Christ, and you imagine this because "the church is one body."
Therefore, logically, it is one of two things: either:
A. you are simply mistaken, or
B. every one that is "dead in Christ" got slaughtered or put to death or martyred because of the Word of God.

I personally know of saints who simply died of old age. They were NOT slain or martyred. I am going to go with B above. You are therefore simply mistaken.

I have a simply request: Let's just BELIEVE what John wrote: these are MARTYRS. But being martyrs, they are still very much a part of the DEAD IN CHRIST. They are dead, (their slain bodies) and they are "In Christ." There is simply no reason to use human reasoning to disagree with what is written.

The rapture is in the 6th seal, and the church is complete and presented to God as one body. Here you are sort of making sense: but did you not understand that the martyrs are a subset of the "dead in Christ" and they too will be raised from the dead with the rest of the dead in Christ?

The emphasis was not on how they died.

11 Each of them was given a white robe.

9 After this, I looked; and there before me was a huge crowd, too large for anyone to count, from every nation, tribe, people and language. They were standing in front of the throne and in front of the Lamb, dressed in white robes

Are you saying every one in white robes are martyrs? John says they are. According to humanity they died as martyrs for a worthless cause. They did not live for their own pleasures, like sinful men.

Are we not to crucify the flesh on a daily basis?

 

[Zao is life]

This is rich coming from a Premil that has zero corroboration for this eschatological theory. The mistake you make is to interpret the rest of Scripture by your opinion of one lone highly-symbolic much-debated chapter in scripture. The evidence of the error of your position is the fact you lack any corroboration for every tenet of Premil. All you have is your private opinion of one chapter.

If I am wrong, please provide me with clear corroboration for these main tenets:

1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
2. Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?
3. What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
4. Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?
5. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them?

Your questions have been answered over and over again by a number of people - but all you do is explain the scriptures away, or reinterpret them "in the light of" your Amill fallacy.

The fact that you should even ask the above questions shows that you don't even believe the Bible, so how can you continue asking people questions that you have multiple times received replies to?

 

[BABerean2]

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Right: two and ONLY TWO resurrections by title (not by time): the primary resurrection of Rev. 20: for the righteous; and then the 2nd death resurrection of Rev, 20 for the damned.

ALL of the righteous, at various times, including Jesus, will take part in the primary or chief of resurrections. All others in the other resurrection.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.



.

 

[Zao is life]

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Tim 4:1 Therefore I solemnly witness before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is going to judge the living and the dead according to His appearance and His kingdom,

The text is not asking you IF His Kingdom is coming when He appears - it's telling you (as does Revelation 11:15 and many other scriptures). When are you going to believe the Bible?

Joh 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It confirms what the Revelation of Jesus tells us about death and hades delivering the dead in them after a one-thousand year period following His appearance - and what the Revelation tells us about those whose names are not found in the book of life at that point being cast into the lake of fire. When on earth are you going to believe the Bible?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

It confirms the fact that Paul said in Corinthians 15 that Christ is the first-fruits of the resurrection, and after that, those who are Christ's at his appearance will rise, and the second death will have no power over them. It will obviously be a judgment for the dead who do not rise at the time of the appearance of Christ, because as the Bible tells us, these will only be delivered up by death and hades after the thousand-year period has passed.

It also confirms the fact that the Revelation tells us that Christ will judge the beast and false prophet at His appearance, and that these will be cast into the lake of fire whilst Satan will be bound and shut up in the abyss for a one-thousand year period before he too, will be cast into the lake of fire.

When on earth are you going to believe the Bible instead of changing its meaning to fit a theology which is false?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The scripture speaks for itself, doesn't it? The hour (time) is coming when ALL of the dead without exception will be raised. Not two hours (times). One. Jesus was clearly speaking of a one time event here.

If someone read this without knowing anything about any millennial views, would they think Jesus was speaking of anything but a future one time event when all the dead are raised? I don't believe so. This is very straightforward scripture, unlike Revelation 20. I prefer to form the foundation of my doctrine on straightforward scripture like this instead of symbolic scripture like Rev 20.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Again, very straightforward. Jesus will judge everyone at His appearing. Just as is depicted in Matthew 25:31-46

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This shows the time of the destruction of the wicked and the day of judgment as being at the seventh trumpet, which is the last of the seven prophetic trumpets. We know that the resurrection of the dead occurs at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54) and the dead are judged after being resurrected (Rev 20:11-15), so this lines up with other scripture.

In contrast to this, premil has the judgment of the dead being a thousand+ years later after the seventh and last trumpet sounds.

 

[Timtofly]

We know that the resurrection of the dead occurs at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54) and the dead are judged after being resurrected (Rev 20:11-15), so this lines up with other scripture.

No reference to sinners being resurrected and judged in 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Your questions have been answered over and over again by a number of people - but all you do is explain the scriptures away, or reinterpret them "in the light of" your Amill fallacy.

The fact that you should even ask the above questions shows that you don't even believe the Bible, so how can you continue asking people questions that you have multiple times received replies to?

This has been continually avoided. The reason is: Premil enjoys no corroboration for their beliefs.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No reference to sinners being resurrected and judged in 1 Corinthians 15.

Do 2 passages need to have all the same details in order to relate to each other and speak of the same event? If so, how can we relate any 2 passages of scripture together?

For example, can we not relate Matt 24:29-31 to Rev 19:11-21 since Rev 19 doesn't specifically mention the gathering of the elect?

We can discern that 1 Cor 15:50-54 is speaking of the same event as John 5:28-29 because Jesus clearly said that there is a singular hour/time (one time event) coming when all of the dead (saved and lost) will be resurrected.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

This has been continually avoided. The reason is: Premil enjoys no corroboration for their beliefs.

For them the entire Bible needs to be interpreted in light of their interpretation of Rev 20 rather than Rev 20 being interpreted in light of the rest of scripture. That is not wise.

By the way, this is Eric (John146 from another site). Since I'm new here, I can't send private messages yet, so I thought I'd reach out to you here. I returned to the old site where I use the John146 username recently and have been posting there for a little while. But, it's a very unstable site (slow and it has frequent server problems).

The user divaD told me about this site and that you were posting here, so I thought I'd check it out. I see that you are very active here, so I look forward to reading your posts and collaborating with you again.

 

[sovereigngrace]

For them the entire Bible needs to be interpreted in light of their interpretation of Rev 20 rather than Rev 20 being interpreted in light of the rest of scripture. That is not wise.

By the way, this is Eric (John146 from another site). Since I'm new here, I can't send private messages yet, so I thought I'd reach out to you here. I returned to the old site where I use the John146 username recently and have been posting there for a little while. But, it's a very unstable site (slow and it has frequent server problems).

The user divaD told me about this site and that you were posting here, so I thought I'd check it out. I see that you are very active here, so I look forward to reading your posts and collaborating with you again.

Wow!!! Great to see you. Looking forward to hearing your latest nuggets. Welcome!!!

 

[Timtofly]

Do 2 passages need to have all the same details in order to relate to each other and speak of the same event? If so, how can we relate any 2 passages of scripture together?

For example, can we not relate Matt 24:29-31 to Rev 19:11-21 since Rev 19 doesn't specifically mention the gathering of the elect?

We can discern that 1 Cor 15:50-54 is speaking of the same event as John 5:28-29 because Jesus clearly said that there is a singular hour/time (one time event) coming when all of the dead (saved and lost) will be resurrected.

Some posters here think 5 word matches seem to work.

Mathew 24 fits better with Revelation 6 than 19.


See you add those two words: saved and lost. I don't think the saved have anything to do with the verse. We are really not saved because we do good or are just. Revelation chapters 8-19 have nothing to do with resurrection. It is death and judgment on the living. No dead sinners are raised prior to the GWT, regardless of this 1000 year Lord's Day.

Some say well the two witnesses are brought back to life. They are not in graves either. Sinners cannot go to heaven period. The two human witnesses are not symbolic of any group of humanity, any more than the 144K are not symbolic of the Jews.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Wow!!! Great to see you. Looking forward to hearing your latest nuggets. Welcome!!!

Thank you! It's great to see you again as well.

But, for now, you will have to wait to hear any more nuggets from me. I need to go to bed.