Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Only to the extent of "three persons of the Godhead"

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
One God in three Persons.

All knowing, all powerful, from everlasting to everlasting... no beginning and no end.

So then in John 17 - Jesus is not "praying to Himself" but rather to God the Father.

This sounds Orthodox on the face of it, but how much of it is rooted in historic ideas

It is rooted in scripture. not on man-made-tradition.

 

[BobRyan]

Trinity as talked about by the Fathers? Athanasius, Basil and the like? How does the SDA regard such teachers and defenders of Orthodoxy?

They are fallible. Sometimes they get things right.

Scripture is infallible.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

 

[BobRyan]

yeah that is a pretty good "one God in three persons" diagram

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

1. Paul preached in the synagogue every Sabbath to both gentiles and Jews - in fact believing gentiles and Jews since it was "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4.
2. All the Apostles were Jewish.
3. There are over a 100 denominations today in that group of Sabbath keepers.
4. All major Christian denominations in the world today have their scholarship affirming the TEN as included in the moral law of God that is written on the heart.

===============



You have free will you can ignore the bible details given above and believe as you wish. This is not an exercise to get you to change your view.

I'm not arguing against your interpretation, only that yours is not the historic interpretation of the Church at large throughout most of it'shistory. This is the Church I presume we are calling 'Orthodox' and asking whether SDA constitute a part of. I would consider most Protestants part of Christianity if they adhere to at least some part of the historic tradition. SDA seem to rebuke a lot of it. IF you view this interpretation as necessary and rebuke the Orthodox interpretation as illegitimate and false, don't you put yourself outside of mainstream Christianity by your own understanding?

This is what I'm concerned with primarily and perhaps it's something you can boast of. After all, why conform to the historic standard?

As to point 4. Clearly not all Churches agree with the SDA view on this, otherwise they wouldn't have Sunday worship as the primary day of worship in the Church week.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

yeah that is a pretty good "one God in three persons" diagram

Jesus prayed "May they be one as we are. "

This type of oneness is directly contradictory to the occult form of oneness.

So very essential.

 

[BobRyan]

As to point 4. Clearly not all Churches agree with the SDA view on this, otherwise they wouldn't have Sunday worship as the primary day of worship in the Church week.

The 100's of Sabbath keeping groups - and the Sunday keeping groups such as the ones below - all agree that the TEN (all TEN) commandments are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant and applicable to all mankind.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

=================

The reason that the Sunday groups make those strong "all TEN commandments" statements (--including the claim that the Sabbath as God gave it was on the 7th day - Saturday) but are keeping Sunday instead - is because they claim that the Sabbath commandment was in some way edited after the cross to point to week-day-1. They all talk about a "change" at the cross for the Sabbath commandment. Many will admit that it was via tradition and that there is no record of the change in scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

IF you view this interpretation as necessary and rebuke the Orthodox interpretation as illegitimate and false, don't you put yourself outside of mainstream Christianity by your own understanding? .

We do not view it that way. In our view Christianity covers all denominations that accept Christ and proclaim the Gospel.

But like most denominations we agree that our set of doctrinal beliefs has at least one teaching in it that separates our denomination from the next one.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

BobRyan said: ↑
Only to the extent of "three persons of the Godhead"

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
One God in three Persons.

All knowing, all powerful, from everlasting to everlasting... no beginning and no end.

So then in John 17 - Jesus is not "praying to Himself" but rather to God the Father.



It is rooted in scripture. not on man-made-tradition.

So SDA theology has no roots in the thinking of the Church on issues of Christology and Trinity between the 3rd and 6th centuries? If so, do you perhaps think we might believe in different things despite using the same terms?

To reduce the historic Church to the formulaic (manmade teachings) is to ignore what that historic Church took part in. It is to separate yourself from those ancient debates and say you are above them and the people who took part of them. Not even the Reformers regarded the Fathers as such or Christians before them as being of no account and value.

So I get that you consider your teachings true. But Obviously you don't consider the SDA a part of historic Christianity? That is, the SDA seems to have no actual continuity with anyone except the biblical authors and your Church's particular founder, right?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The 100's of Sabbath keeping groups - and the Sunday keeping groups such as the ones below - all agree that the TEN (all TEN) commandments are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant and applicable to all mankind.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

=================

The reason that the Sunday groups make those strong "all TEN commandments" statements (--including the claim that the Sabbath as God gave it was on the 7th day - Saturday) but are keeping Sunday instead - is because they claim that the Sabbath commandment was in some way edited after the cross to point to week-day-1. They all talk about a "change" at the cross for the Sabbath commandment. Many will admit that it was via tradition and that there is no record of the change in scripture.

Quote one of the Orthodox Catechisms for me on the Sabbath. Show me where they agree with SDA teaching.

 

[BobRyan]

So SDA theology has no roots in the thinking of the Church on issues of Christology and Trinity between the 3rd and 6th centuries? If so, do you perhaps think we might believe in different things despite using the same terms?

Our belief is that the first century church had the right doctrine and over time changes creep in little by little. We view the Reformation as "a good thing" restoring some of the truths already present in the first century church that had been in same way changed over time. We view the SDA denomination set of doctrines as building on that platform - continuing that reformation.

This is not to reduce the historic Church to the formulaic (manmade teachings) - rather it is to admit that over time - changes come in -- just as Christ noted in Mark 7:6-13 regarding the one true nation-church started by God at Sinai..

So I get that you consider your teachings true. But Obviously you don't consider the SDA a part of historic Christianity?

On the contrary - historic Christianity begins - SDA in our view since in our view the NT church had the right doctrine and that doctrine while subjected to changes over the centuries was being 'restored' to its original state - via the reformation and via the continuation of that reformation.

not only that - but in all ages there was always some group that held to a more accurate rendering of the original first century doctrine on a number of points that were being disputed and changed over the centuries.

 

[Cis.jd]

Gal 1:6-9 - there is only one Gospel
Gal 3:8 that Gospel was preached to Abraham

The New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 is that Gospel

And it is unchanged in the NT according to Heb 8:6-12

Gospel does not mean religious rules.

 

[BobRyan]

Gospel does not mean religious rules.

What does the New Covenant say is written on heart and mind in our POV?

what does Rom 3:31 say - in our POV?

Eph 6:1-2?

1 Cor 7:19?

 

[BobRyan]

Quote one of the Orthodox Catechisms for me on the Sabbath. Show me where they agree with SDA teaching.

Do you want me to show you where they agree that the Sabbath commandment is one of the TEN and that all TEN of the TEN still apply to all Christians?

"Eastern Orthodoxy

The Eastern Orthodox Church holds its moral truths to be chiefly contained in the Ten Commandments.[68] A confession begins with the Confessor reciting the Ten Commandments and asking the penitent which of them he has broken.[69] ...

[68] Sebastian Dabovich, Preaching in the Russian Church, p. 65. Cubery (1899).

[69] Alexander Hugh Hore, Eighteen Centuries of the Orthodox Church, p. 36. J. Parker and Co. (1899)." - Ten Commandments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

from the Eastern Orthodox Catechism

"489. Which are the chief and general commandments of this law?

The following ten, which were written on two tables of stone:

1. I am the Lord thy God: thou shalt have none other gods beside me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thyself any graven image, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters under the earth: thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy: six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the Sabbath to the Lord thy God.
5. Honor thy father and thy mother, that it may be well with thee, and that thy days may be long upon the earth.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, nor his land, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any of his cattle, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's. Exod. xx. 1-17; Deut. v. 6-21.

490. You said that these Commandments were given to the people of Israel: must we, then, also walk by them?

We must: for they are in substance the same law which, in the words of St. Paul, has been written in the hearts of all men, that all should walk by it.

491. Did Jesus Christ teach men to walk by the Ten Commandments?

He bade men, if they would attain to everlasting life, to keep the Commandments and taught us to understand and fulfill them more perfectly than had been done before he came. Matt xix. 17, and v.

On the Division of the Commandments into Two Tables.

492. What means the division of the Ten Commandments into two tables?

This: that they contain two kinds of love--love to God, and love to our neighbor; and prescribe two corresponding kinds of duties." - The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church • Pravoslavieto.com

Ooops, scratch "Ten" and write "Nine" of God's Commands + "1 man made tradition, nullifying God's Commands"...:

"537. Is the Sabbath kept in the Christian Church?

It is not kept, strictly speaking, as a holy day ...

538. How, then, does the Christian Church obey the fourth commandment?

She still to every six days keeps a seventh, only not the last of the seven days, which is the Sabbath, but the first day in every week ... " - The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church • Pravoslavieto.com

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Our belief is that the first century church had the right doctrine and over time changes creep in little by little. We view the Reformation as "a good thing" restoring some of the truths already present in the first century church that had been in same way changed over time. We view the SDA denomination set of doctrines as building on that platform - continuing that reformation.

This is not to reduce the historic Church to the formulaic (manmade teachings) - rather it is to admit that over time - changes come in -- just as Christ noted in Mark 7:6-13 regarding the one true nation-church started by God at Sinai..

Sounds like the idea of the Great apostasy to me. IN which case, since many of us still adhere to those Churches which have accrued error upon error, how can you have anything but a negative relation to us who continue to persist in these errors? We would appear to be rejecting the true Gospel by not receiving what was revealed by Ellen G White.

On the contrary - historic Christianity begins - SDA in our view since in our view the NT church had the right doctrine and that doctrine while subjected to changes over the centuries was being 'restored' to its original state - via the reformation and via the continuation of that reformation.

not only that - but in all ages there was always some group that held to a more accurate rendering of the original first century doctrine on a number of points that were being disputed and changed over the centuries.

Again sounds like the great Apostasy to me.

 

[RBPerry]

This is refuted by the fact that many SDAs on CF get involved in discussion with other christian denominations all the time.

When I was in high school (60s) Monterey Bay Academy we were told not to associate or debate other denominations. When I left the SDA church I lost half of my friends and family, don't tell me they don't reject those who leaven their church.

 

[Cis.jd]

What does the New Covenant say is written on heart and mind in our POV?

what does Rom 3:31 say - in our POV?

Eph 6:1-2?

1 Cor 7:19?

You said it first: "New Covenant"
All those verses reference societal commandments, but never once do you see it include any Jewish religious based practices.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

They certainty seem to depart from historic Orthodoxy in their embrace of certain Ideas/practices. The emphasis on the Sabbath is clearly Jewish in origin, as is their practice of eating Kosher. These things alone perhaps keep SDA from being fully regarded by most Christians, Catholic, Orthodox or even Protestant.

Do SDA even agree with the Nicene/Trinitarian theology of the historic Church?

Are the Ethiopian Orthodox, who keep the Sabbath and Kosher laws, Orthodox?? That is historic Orthodoxy. The 7th day is still the Sabbath day in Orthodoxy and we do not fast on that day...

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
What does the New Covenant say is written on heart and mind in our POV?
what does Rom 3:31 say - in our POV?
Eph 6:1-2?
1 Cor 7:19?

You said it first: "New Covenant"
All those verses reference societal commandments, but never once do you see it include any Jewish religious based practices.

1. No "societal commandments" text in all of scripture.
2. All major Christian denominations affirm all TEN of the TEN Commandments
3. The New Covenant as given by God in Jer 31:31-34 makes not "just nine-commandments" stipulation or "don't do something God wants you to do" stipulation.
4. Eph 6:1-2 is a direct quote of the 5th commandment and a direct reference to the UNIT of TEN where it is the "first commandment with a promise"
5. 1 Cor 7:19 "commandments of God" does not add "except ones that society might not prefer"

 

[rturner76]

The reason that the Sunday groups make those strong "all TEN commandments" statements (--including the claim that the Sabbath as God gave it was on the 7th day - Saturday) but are keeping Sunday instead - is because they claim that the Sabbath commandment was in some way edited after the cross to point to week-day-1. They all talk about a "change" at the cross for the Sabbath commandment. Many will admit that it was via tradition and that there is no record of the change in scripture.

What a Catholic apologist might say is that when Christ gave the keys to the kingdom to what would become "The Church," he also said

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

The Church concluded that this statement gives the church the authority on theological matters. Those theological conclusions would come to be known as "Tradition." Tradition is supposed to be used along with scripture when The Church considers a subject

Changing worship from Saturday to Sunday made it easier to separate themselves from their Jewish neighbors. It became fashionable to blame Jews for "killing" Christ (still is). Even though we worship a Jew and his death and resurrection brought us salvation.

I am of the opinion that yes, the Sabbath was originally on Saturday and they changed it. There is still a Sabbath Day every week and it gave us the 5 day work week. The point was to have a day of rest and worship and we still have one. I think that is more important than what day it is.