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Are the rest of the woman's offspring/seed converted Jewish Christians or both Gentile and Jewish?
What does the woman symbolize?
Revelation 12:17
New American Standard Bible
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
King James Bible
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ
Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the Saints;
here are those[fn] who keep the commandments<1785> of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 22:14
New American Standard Bible
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
King James Bible
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
That's a silly question. No one has any scriptures except you. Remember?Did you have any scripture to share? I guess not.
"God's ISRAEL" ??? As opposed to what? Someone else's Israel, oops, I mean ISRAEL.God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT is all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. Gentiles are now grafted in to God's ISRAEL (Romans 11:16-27). If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL you have no part in the NEW COVENANT *HEBREWS 8:10-12.
Luke 16:16
“The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.
Luke calls it the "Kingdom of God", Matthew 11:12 calls it "the kingdom of the heavens".Luke 16:16
“The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.
And when it was taught it was still the law as it had not yet been fulfilled.Steve,
In the days of Jesus the religious teachers of the day had placed so many man made traditions around Sabbath keeping that it had become a burden to the people. It was though in their eyes MANKIND was made for the Sabbath. It was so bad in fact that these religious teachers were constantly looking for ways to accuse Jesus of breaking the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-2; 10; Mark 3:2'; Luke 6:1-2).
Jesus rebuked these religious teachers by saying that the Sabbath was made for MAN and NOT MAN for the SABBATH (Mark 2:27 and that he was the CREATOR or LORD of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28) and it was LAWFUL to do GOOD on the SABBATH (Matt 12:12)
Jesus did God's WORK on the Sabbath and so should we everyday but God's WORK is not the work we are commanded NOT to do on God's Sabbath for it is lawful to do GOOD on the Sabbath.
Have you not read what David did, when he was hungry, and they that were with him; How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the showbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them who were with him, but only for the priests?
Or have you not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
GOD'S 4TH COMMANDMENT
Exodus 20
8, Remember the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> Because God made it Holy for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day)
9, Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
10, But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY>
11, For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT.
Doing GOD'S WORK is NOT what the 4th Commandment is talking about please read it.
God's 4th Commandments says we are NOT to do OUR OWN WORK. Yep NO secular business or paid work, no unnecessary domestic work, no buying and selling, shopping. This can be done on the other days of the week. God has made the SEVENTH DAY a HOLY DAY and we are to REST in HIM by FAITH in the LORD of the SABBATH. This is the 4th Commandment and one of the God's 10.
What did Jesus and the Apostles teach about the Sabbath in the New Testament?
1. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56)
2. Jesus made the Sabbath for all mankind (Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1-3; 14; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16-17; Mark 2:27)
3. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28)
4. If you do not believe and follow God you cannot enter His Sabbath rest (Hebrews 4)
5. It is one of God’s 10 commandments we break it we are guilty or breaking all (James 2:8-12)
6. Breaking it is sin (1 John 3:4)
7. God’s true followers keep it Holy as God commanded (Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; Eze 20:20)
8. Jesus is our example and he kept the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-12; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matthew 16:24; 1 Corinthians 11:1; Ephesians 5:1-21; 1 Peter 2:20-22)
9. The Apostle kept the Sabbath (Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Revelation 1:10)
God’s Law in the NC is written on our hearts it is through love and it is love the fulfils God’s Law in us as we walk not after the flesh but after the spirit and is why Jesus says If you love me keep my commandments. (John 14:15; John 15:10). If we knowingly break one of God’s commandments we commit sin (1 John 3:4). This includes the 7th Day Sabbath which Jesus made for us and commands us to keep as a holy da
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SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)
Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.
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God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)
You have got the wrong idea on this point, because Jesus didn't set aside the Sabbath .. instead He took issue with the faulty reasoning of the lawyers who had turned it into a day of abstinence - even to abstain from the good things that would glorify the day!Jesus admitted to working on the Sabbath. Jesus was not under the law. He set it aside.
John 5:16-18
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Thanks for your post.You have got the wrong idea on this point, because Jesus didn't set aside the Sabbath .. instead He took issue with the faulty reasoning of the lawyers who had turned it into a day of abstinence - even to abstain from the good things that would glorify the day!
Jesus would be profaning the Sabbath if He was to do away with it. Rather, to keep the Sabbath day holy, He says it is lawful to do good on that day. If He was to decline to heal a person who asked Him to heal, then it would in fact profane the Sabbath by breaking the commandment "love your neighbour as yourself", and the neighbour would have felt bitter toward God.
The whole purpose of Sabbath keeping is so that the whole of society can rest and give glory to God. They do not need to have anxiety or resentment of any kind, they don't need to rush.. none of the annoyances that come up during the normal working day as a result of having to get things done on time.
But if you are strolling on the Sabbath and you see someone who is unable to walk, you're feeling like it's a good time to do something that pleases God (Luke 5:17c, Proverbs 27:11), then why not? .. it is not to transgress the Sabbath, but to fulfil it! .. same if you see a nice piece of fruit on a tree, then is it not better to pick the fruit and thank God for such a wonderful day, complimenting the tree's keeper, than to resent Him for not being allowed to make the most of His creation because someone might accuse you of doing labour?
.. can you see how awry they have gone in their interpretation of the law? The letter they have written as an interpretation of the law has killed the spirit of it. On the other hand, if someone was working to harvest fruit on the Sabbath, they might resent that they are unable to eat the fruit from the tree because their job is to sell the fruit for a profit.
This is how they were destroyed Luke 19:41"they won’t leave within you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.” .. Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Since you rejected knowledge, I will also reject you from being My kohen. Since you forgot the Torah of your God, just so I will forget your children."
Thanks Steven, could you show the main scriptures that use the expression "grace" as juxtaposed to law? .. there are different ways the word grace can be used, as in a gracious mercy or a graceful demeanour. I think it is important to make sure we are looking at the same scriptures the same way.the choice is between the law and grace,
In fact, he is saying that anyone not keeping sound doctrine is condemned by the law. So it really brings forward the question of how can we convey a doctrine as being "sound doctrine", when it encourages people to not keep the law - because by nature it is encouraging lawlessness, and therefore appears to not be sound doctrine! .. That's a bit of a challenge, right?
Post #175 was addressed to Dave L.Thanks Steven, could you show the main scriptures that use the expression "grace" as juxtaposed to law? .. there are different ways the word grace can be used, as in a gracious mercy or a graceful demeanour. I think it is important to make sure we are looking at the same scriptures the same way.
.. also on that note, take a look at post #175 again, where there is an unanswered matter from 1 Timothy 1:9-10:
Thanks Saint Steven for the warm welcome!Thanks for your post. Welcome to this thread and welcome to the CFs.
The tendency is to ignore the term "the Prophets" in Matt.5:17. But I believe it is critical to the understanding of what Jesus was saying. How do you not abolish a prophet?
Jesus explains what he meant in Matt.5:17 in this scripture below from the time after his resurrection. Notice that the fulfillment he refers to is of the prophecies in the books, not the fulfillment of "laws" through obedience to them. He didn't come to abolish the books, they still had a place of importance, since they spoke about him.
Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Thanks for the detailed response. I appreciate it.Thanks Saint Steven for the warm welcome!
Surely though Jesus' referring to not abolishing the prophets as well as the law is because they are so interwoven, not only in the sense that the books remain relevant as part of our cannon (which I also agree with by the way). If you abolish the law, you would abolish the prophets too because the promises and the basis of the covenantal relationship between God and Israel is expounded by the prophets. No Law, means no prophets, because there would be no standard of expectation by which to measure the prophets either.
A great example of that would be in Deuteronomy 30, at the climax of Moses summarising all of the instruction he's received from God:
"Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live."
Then in the prophets we have numerous references to these exact things taking place. E.g. Amos conclusion 9:14, and then famously in Jeremiah 31:31ff.
I'm not saying that means Christians ought to follow 'the Law', meaning by that a set of rules derived from the scripture wholesale and uninterpreted. "It says x here, so we must all do x". But I think where we stand to gain is in the exercise of interpreting them, and avoiding making our starting point that because of Jesus none of them really apply to us: this would be to reduce them only to take the form of teaching.
Debating for instance as we are here: should the 10 Commandments apply? I love this question because it leads us to think through our method of interpretation. I see these Commandments resonating without contradiction across the whole cannon, so personally I have a hard time believing that they don't apply to Christians.
But then, that begs a series of important questions: how ought we keep it? In what form?
For example in the case in point, if we don't keep the Sabbath as Christians, surely a serious engagement with the scripture involves asking ourselves: "maybe we should?" If so, then how: Sunday? Sunset Friday until Sunset Saturday as it was originally for the Jewish people? As and when we can fit a time of rest into our busy lives? A bit of all of the above as we seek the presence of God in our lives? Maybe it's heavily circumstantial? Or as Gentile Christians, belonging to Israel in Christ, do we stand external to that in the form of a command: does it now take the form of an invitation?
I read the accusations that Jesus did not keep the Sabbath (Shabbat) quoted in other posts on the lips of his opponents, who monopolised all interpretation of how Shabbat was to be observed. Jesus rejected their interpretation - teaching us that picking and eating ears of corn, healing people, carrying a mat are in fact lawful on Shabbat. That's saying something rather different from suggesting Jesus taught that we need not keep Shabbat at all, in any form.
Good post and thanks for those 7 conclusions.Thanks for the detailed response. I appreciate it.
These questions about the law and the Sabbath are interesting. I have been studying and debating these issues for about a decade. Here are a few of the conclusions that I have arrived at.
1) The law was given to the Israelites alone through Moses.
2) That being said, the law is nearly universally known.
3) From that perspective it makes us conscious of sin.
4) But we need to remember point #1, (given to the Israelites alone)
5) The Sabbath is a sign between the Israelites and God alone.
6) The Sabbath was not changed to Sunday by the early church.
7) The law is a singular thing. To observe any of it obligates us to all of it.
This is one of the best descriptions I have found about the history, turning point, and our current relationship to the law.
I suppose the answer is because no one wants a yoke of bondage placed on their necks. So they do what Paul did,resist it.If I am not mistaken,it says that if you break the Sabbath,you are to be put to death.
Yep. Still a HOT topic.Good post and thanks for those 7 conclusions.
You've been debating the Law/Commandments about as long as I have.
I rarely debate the Sabbath anymore, [Daniel, Olivet Discourse and Revelation interests me a lot more now].
Anywho, perhaps you remember "Frogster" and/or "scratch"? We were called "The 3 Amigos" way back LOL.....
Discussion in 'General Theology' started by RND, Sep 10, 2009.
Why do you think the sabbath is always such a 'hot topic'?
Why do you think the sabbath is always such a 'hot topic'?
Discussion in 'General Theology' started by <scratch> Mar 24, 2011.
Are you under THE law, Grace or both
Are you under THE law, Grace or both
Are you under THE law, Grace or both (2)
Are you under THE law, Grace or both (2)
Are you under THE law, Grace or both (3)
Are you under THE law, Grace or both (3)
As I once stated "there are a plethora of Law threads on CF" ehehe
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