Is the Sabbath a 'test of loyalty'?

[TrustAndObey]

So if someone of Jewish bloodline accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, are they then a Christian that must abide by Christian beliefs as defined by Christ Himself?

 

[TrustAndObey]

Most Catholics I talk to declare that Mary was the very FIRST Christian.

Do you disagree with that?

 

[TrustAndObey]

Not all people of Jewish bloodline obey the commandments. Does that still make them Jew or what? I'm sorry I'm just confused by what you're saying.

 

[fated]

So if someone of Jewish bloodline accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, are they then a Christian that must abide by Christian beliefs as defined by Christ Himself?

Jesus Christ did not contradict the Jews, only the manner of practice in some cases, or as a conviction of the heart in others.

 

[RND]

People can be sincerely wrong in believing they are following God with their heart.

True, but how is this determined?

They must also do so with their mind and body.

How, keeping in mind that "heart and mind" being "interchangeable" in scripture?

 

[RND]

I would generally accept a Jewish definition, such as blood line, an obvious outward sign, such as keeping the laws, or a self-description as such.

How about a Biblical definition?

 

[fated]

Most Catholics I talk to declare that Mary was the very FIRST Christian.

Do you disagree with that?

Of course. Mary was the initial Church, the first Christian, in whom the Holy Spirit dwelt. Theologically, she received the Holy Spirit first, followed by John the baptist, both through Jesus Christ. There is probably a quandary here regarding whether Mary was baptized or not. I haven't seen anything about that.

 

[fated]

True, but how is this determined?



How, keeping in mind that "heart and mind" being "interchangeable" in scripture?

Making a determination is on the basis of law, typically. Judging ones soul is outside the boundary of another persons discretion, though threatening judgment is fairly well defensible as an act of community defense. One has to make some judgments, other determinations are not necessary or possible.
Heart and mind might be interchangeable in some places in scripture, BUT it is highly pragmatic to make decisions with ones reasonable judgment.

 

[TrustAndObey]

There's two conversations going on right now and I don't want fated to feel ganged up on or anything.

I'll come back later after you two get done with that one line of questioning, okay?

 

[fated]

How about a Biblical definition?

Can you give me one?

 

[fated]

Not all people of Jewish bloodline obey the commandments. Does that still make them Jew or what? I'm sorry I'm just confused by what you're saying.

I used a three part definition:
I would generally accept a Jewish definition, such as (1)blood line, an obvious outward sign, such as (2) keeping the laws, or a (3)self-description as such.

I thought this adequate.

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hello once again fated,

It was not my intention to offend or insult you by what I posted. Nor is it my words that indict the Jews of Bible times. It is the words of Christ that make that indictment.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not. Matt. 23:37

Here Christ is lamenting the fact that eventhough he had attempted to show the Jewish nation what was needed for salvation, by sending His prophets to them with His message of love and salvation, they had rejected the prophets and the message that was sent. These were the same Jews that tried to keep 613 laws to obtain salvation. In todays world the vast majority of Jews still reject Christ as their Savior. Christ said if ye love me keep My commandments. Please notice that love is a precursor for acceptable commandment keeping, not the result of commandment keeping.

Do I think all SDAs keep the Sabbath out of love? Or any of rest of the Ten Commandments entirely out of Love? The answer has to be no. While only God can look upon the heart, what is often displayed by the words and deeds of others for all to see and hear, often doesn't seem to be motivated by love for anyone or anything. As Christ said; By their fruits ye shall know them.

Do I think no Jewish person today loves God? Absolutely not. There is no question in my mind that there are Jews around the world that will be in the kingdom. They will be there out of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and love for Him, not as a nation.

I hope this futher explains my position.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[TrustAndObey]

Doc, that was a great post.

What I personally refer to as the Jews today (other than spiritual Jews) are people that do NOT have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

I've heard of Jews for Jesus which are Christians....so I'm still unclear as to what fated's definition of a Jew or Christian are.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I used a three part definition:
I would generally accept a Jewish definition, such as (1)blood line, an obvious outward sign, such as (2) keeping the laws, or a (3)self-description as such.

I thought this adequate.

It would be adequate if you could tell me how that definition would relate to a Jewish person that has accepted Christ as their personal Savior.

 

[fated]

It would be adequate if you could tell me how that definition would relate to a Jewish person that has accepted Christ as their personal Savior.

Doc, that was a great post.

What I personally refer to as the Jews today (other than spiritual Jews) are people that do NOT have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

I've heard of Jews for Jesus which are Christians....so I'm still unclear as to what fated's definition of a Jew or Christian are.

Hello once again fated,

It was not my intention to offend or insult you by what I posted. Nor is it my words that indict the Jews of Bible times. It is the words of Christ that make that indictment.Here Christ is lamenting the fact that eventhough he had attempted to show the Jewish nation what was needed for salvation, by sending His prophets to them with His message of love and salvation, they had rejected the prophets and the message that was sent. These were the same Jews that tried to keep 613 laws to obtain salvation. In todays world the vast majority of Jews still reject Christ as their Savior. Christ said if ye love me keep My commandments. Please notice that love is a precursor for acceptable commandment keeping, not the result of commandment keeping.

Do I think all SDAs keep the Sabbath out of love? Or any of rest of the Ten Commandments entirely out of Love? The answer has to be no. While only God can look upon the heart, what is often displayed by the words and deeds of others for all to see and hear, often doesn't seem to be motivated by love for anyone or anything. As Christ said; By their fruits ye shall know them.

Do I think no Jewish person today loves God? Absolutely not. There is no question in my mind that there are Jews around the world that will be in the kingdom. They will be there out of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and love for Him, not as a nation.

I hope this futher explains my position.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

These questions seem to regard the judging of a particular person's soul, not their standing in the temporal Body of Christ. I cannot judge a person's soul. I do believe that ignorance decreases culpability. The manifest Church must make judgments for its own unity regarding the state of a person's temporal life as it is capable, and when necessary.

I think that there is a valid possibility, unique, in fact, that Jews can find salvation (through Jesus Christ) despite that fact that they do not profess or have an outward sign as a member of the manifest Body of Christ, that is, the Church.

And John makes it ever so complicated by simplifying the matter. "If there is love in them" and "if there is not love in them" he says.

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hi T & O,

You are correct to refer to Jews today as you did in your previous post where you said:

What I personally refer to as the Jews today (other than spiritual Jews) are people that do NOT have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

I've heard of Jews for Jesus which are Christians....so I'm still unclear as to what fated's definition of a Jew or Christian are.

To carry that line of thought one step further consider this. The word Jew is the only word known to man that can identify a persons ethnic heritage, their citizenship, and their religion. With that in mind a person who claims Jewish ethnicity and/or has Jewish citizenship may or may not accept Jesus Christ. If on the other hand if either of, or both of, the preceeding accepts Jesus Christ they are no longer considered to be Jewish by religious identity. The reverse is also true. A person of non-Jewish ethnic origin may choose to become Jewish by citizenship or by converting to Judaism.

Perhaps now you will understand why it is sometimes difficult to define who is a "Jew."

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[thecountrydoc]

You know fated, I thought that was almost the samething I said. And yes we are held accountable for the knowledge we have been given.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[fated]

And this:
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not. Matt. 23:37

Does not condemn directly any person, and it doesn't even generalize the group, it is only speaking of occurrences.

 

[RND]

Can you give me one?

Indeed. Several in fact.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

 

[RND]

Making a determination is on the basis of law, typically.

Which one?

Judging ones soul is outside the boundary of another persons discretion, though threatening judgment is fairly well defensible as an act of community defense.

Yes, but is that scriptural. If so, could you provide an example?

One has to make some judgments, other determinations are not necessary or possible.
Heart and mind might be interchangeable in some places in scripture, BUT it is highly pragmatic to make decisions with ones reasonable judgment.

I agree. Then we can certainly agree that the scripture is the first place we should look to determine what is reasonable.