Is the Rapture shown in 1Thess 4 showing in Revelation? If so, where?

[Copperhead]

The true Christian Church is that part of the Church which did not participate in the apostasy which began in the 4th century AD, and which survived to participate in the Reformation.

There were a number of premils among the early church fathers. There were but a handful of whom it could be said espoused pretribism, and those are debatable. In comparison to the total number of early church fathers and apologists, including the more recent Reformers, the number of pretribbers is vanishingly small. They can be found in Thomas Ice's article here.

Tommy Ice does very good work. But Dr. Ken Johnson, who also writes stuff that is on Tommy Ice's website, is far more meticulous in his works regarding the early church writers.

 

[Copperhead]

It isn't relevant to our current discussion. Paul says the rapture happens after the trib, not before it and much of his second letter is devoted to teaching against a pre-trib rapture belief...yet here we are in 2018 with people who still believe a pre-trib rapture.

It is to relevant. You said that harpazo means rapture, and Harpazo is the word used for Philip being "caught away" after the event with the Ethiopian. Harpazo or "rapture" is also used of the child in Revelation 12.

And it can be argued that in 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul is reminding these folks that they had been misled by a forged letter or other that the tribulation period had begun. And how did he prove that to them? He reminded them that a departure would occur before the man of sin (antichrist) would be revealed. And further on, he reminds them of how he told them this when he was with them. The context of our being gathered to the Lord is laid out on verse 1 of that passage.

Now, some would debate the wording of verse 3 that the departure is called the falling away in many translations and it means an apostasy or departure from Christianity, but that is taking a lot of liberty with the text. Every major translation prior to the KJV translated the passage as simply "departure" or "the departure". Even the Latin Vulgate from the 4th century uses discessio which means a physical, spatial departure, not a spiritual one.

 

[jgr]

Tommy Ice does very good work. But Dr. Ken Johnson, who also writes stuff that is on Tommy Ice's website, is far more meticulous in his works regarding the early church writers.

Links? Citations?

 

[ewq1938]

It is to relevant. You said that harpazo means rapture, and Harpazo is the word used for Philip being "caught away" after the event with the Ethiopian.

So what? We are talking about the rapture of all living Christians at a certain time, not other examples of harpazo in scripture.

And it can be argued that in 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul is reminding these folks that they had been misled by a forged letter or other that the tribulation period had begun. And how did he prove that to them? He reminded them that a departure would occur before the man of sin (antichrist) would be revealed.

That is opposite of what he says.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


He says the rapture will not happen until the man of sin is revealed not before it.

Now, some would debate that the departure is called the falling away in many translations and it means an apostasy or departure from Christianity, but that is taking a lot of liberty with the text. Every major translation prior to the KJV translated the passage as simply "departure" or "the departure". Even the Latin Vulgate from the 4th century uses discessio which means a physical, spatial departure, not a spiritual one.

The Apostasy is not the Rapture.

 

[jgr]

Now, some would debate that the departure is called the falling away in many translations and it means an apostasy or departure from Christianity, but that is taking a lot of liberty with the text. Every major translation prior to the KJV translated the passage as simply "departure" or "the departure". Even the Latin Vulgate from the 4th century uses discessio which means a physical, spatial departure, not a spiritual one.

"Apostasia" as "rapture" was unknown in Christian orthodoxy until its sudden appearance in 1895.

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing away as a synonym of dissension thus means departing away from the faith, i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe identified the man of sin as the apostate papal antichrist, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which had never occurred.

From Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified the man of sin as the papacy, and did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which had never occurred.
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who considered the word to mean anything other than departure from the faith.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3

Of the approximately fifty contemporary English Bible versions in existence, not a single version translates "apostasia" as "rapture", but rather as apostasy, falling away, or the equivalent.

 

[Copperhead]

No, it is not he opposite of what Paul says. Paul used the word in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 that means simply departure. Like I stated, every major translation prior to the KJV used departure. The Vulgate uses discessio which means a physical departure not a spiritual one or "falling away". Many NT Greek scholars agree. Dr. Kenneth Wuest is one among many. Dr. Andy Woods is another. Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost is another.

Unless the Latin Vulgate was not written till after 1895, your assertion would be faulty. The Vulgate was written in the 4th Century. it states that the greek apostasia means a physical, literal departure. And Jerome was still living in the time when the Greek was a working daily language in many areas. I would tend to give him a little more credit on what the word means.

 

[ewq1938]

No, it is not he opposite of what Paul says. Paul used the word in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 that means simply departure. Like I stated, every major translation prior to the KJV used departure. The Vulgate uses discessio which means a physical departure not a spiritual one or "falling away". Many NT Greek scholars agree. Dr. Kenneth Wuest is one among many. Dr. Andy Woods is another. Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost is another.

So you are saying you will take part in the Apostasy?

 

[jgr]

No, it is not he opposite of what Paul says. Paul used the word in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 that means simply departure. Like I stated, every major translation prior to the KJV used departure. The Vulgate uses discessio which means a physical departure not a spiritual one or "falling away". Many NT Greek scholars agree. Dr. Kenneth Wuest is one among many. Dr. Andy Woods is another. Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost is another.

Unless the Latin Vulgate was not written till after 1895, your assertion would be faulty. The Vulgate was written in the 4th Century. it states that the greek apostasia means a physical, literal departure. And Jerome was still living in the time when the Greek was a working daily language in many areas. I would tend to give him a little more credit on what the word means.

You appear not to have read post #185 at all. So please reread it.

 

[Copperhead]

Of the approximately fifty contemporary English Bible versions in existence, not a single version translates "apostasia" as "rapture", but rather as apostasy, falling away, or the equivalent.

Contemporary versions, you would be correct. But what of English translations prior to the KJV? The Geneva Bible (1608), the Tyndale Bible (1526), the Beza Bible (1583), the Wycliffe Bible (1384), the Coverdale Bible (1535), the Breches Bible (1576) all translate apostasia as simply "departure" or "the departure". None of them use anything that suggests a spiritual falling away.

 

[Copperhead]

So you are saying you will take part in the Apostasy?

Nope, I will take part in the physical departure of the ekklesia prior to the revealing of the false messiah. Apostasy is a English transliterated word that does not have the same literal meaning as the Greek Apostasia. Similar sounding names does not imply similar meanings. Two different languages.

 

[ewq1938]

Nope, I will take part in the physical departure of the ekklesia prior to the revealing of the false messiah. Apostasy is a English transliterated word that does not have the same literal meaning as the Greek Apostasia.

Let's see if you are right:

G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
Thayer Definition:
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647
Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

You are wrong again. apostasia does not mean what harpazo means.

 

[jgr]

Contemporary versions, you would be correct. But what of English translations prior to the KJV? The Geneva Bible (1608), the Tyndale Bible (1526), the Beza Bible (1583), the Wycliffe Bible (1384), the Coverdale Bible (1535), the Breches Bible (1576) all translate apostasia as simply "departure" or "the departure". None of them use anything that suggests a spiritual falling away.

To reiterate:

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

I've explained how no Reformer, recognizing the true Church suffering under the apostate papal antichrist, could have believed in a pretrib rapture.

 

[Copperhead]

You appear not to have read post #185 at all. So please reread it.

Likewise, you did not take into account many NT Greek scholars I mentioned. Modern Greek is not the same as the Koine Greek of the NT. I would not rely on what modern Greek users have to say about the proper interpretation of the word. The Greek Orthodox Church has been primarily Amillenial in its eschatology, so one would expect that they would not hold to a pre-trib position and negate meanings to support their own eschatology.

 

[Copperhead]

Let's see if you are right:

G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
Thayer Definition:
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647
Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

You are wrong again. apostasia does not mean what harpazo means.

Nope. Not wrong. That is one man's interpretation of the meaning of the word. Just like Strong would be another. There is far more textual evidence that the word apostasia simply means a physical, spatial departure.

 

[jgr]

Likewise, you did not take into account many NT Greek scholars I mentioned. Modern Greek is not the same as the Koine Greek of the NT. I would not rely on what modern Greek users have to say about the proper interpretation of the word. The Greek Orthodox Church has been primarily Amillenial in its eschatology, so one would expect that they would not hold to a pre-trib position and negate meanings to support their own eschatology.

Given a choice between a Greek Christian whose native tongue is the language, and any Greek scholar; I'll believe the former, every time.

Greeks know Greek.

 

[ewq1938]

Nope. Not wrong. That is one man's interpretation of the meaning of the word. Just like Strong would be another. There is far more textual evidence that the word apostasia simply means a physical, spatial departure.

There is zero evidence of that because the word does not mean what you are trying to change it into.

 

[iamlamad]

I am not quite that harsh. I always like to say to those who don't agree with a pre-trib removal of the righteous that "It is Ok. We will explain it to you on the way up!" I know, it adds a little humor to the issue. We don't have to get so serious that we are angry all the time.



There is actually many unbelievers that know a pre-trib removal will happen. They just understand and describe it differently. Many New Age types that are into channelling, UFO's and other gobblety gook have written extensively how there will be a disappearance of perhaps millions from the earth early on in the "cleansing process" that is coming upon the earth. It will be required because those people are not in "harmonic vibration" with the earth changes. And in none of their writings has Satan tried to explain away a possible mid trib or post trib type of removal.

I agree. I have no anger issue here. I agree with you on your last point.

 

[iamlamad]

There is zero evidence of that because the word does not mean what you are trying to change it into.

The question is, CAN this word mean something else? It is a compound word - "apo" and "stasia."

Here is what STrong's says about "apo:
of separation
of local separation,

after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...

of separation of a part from the whole
where of a whole some part is taken

of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

of a state of separation, that is of distance
physical, of distance of place

At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? You know the answer is YES.

Will those taken be separated by DISTANCE? Again the answer is YES.

The other part of the compound word 'stasia" is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.

Putting these two words together then can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly moved from where they were to a new location, and it happen so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.

 

[iamlamad]

It only takes two verses to prove that pre-trib is a false doctrine.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: (the second coming) and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Since the resurrection only happens at the second coming and that we have the rapture happening AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these two verses decisively prove the pre-trib rapture to be false.

No, your thinking is wrong. You are mixing up the second coming with His THIRD coming as shown in Rev. 19. Paul tells us of a coming BEFORE the start of the DAY, if you study 1 thes. 5. And also before WRATH begins. In Revelation that would put the rapture before the 6th seal. And John does not begin the 70th week until the 7th seal - so Paul is certainly PRETRIB.

He comes NEXT FOR His saints.
He comes the third time WITH His saints.

 

[iamlamad]

Has anyone ever noticed how pre-trib folks really don't rant and rail about the other positions (unless attacked personally for their views), but those who dislike the pre-trib position will really go off the charts in their vitriol on those who do hold to it? I know it doesn't prove the point that a pre-trib is a viable position, but it really is interesting. It is almost as if those who disagree want to see everyone suffer and die just so they can later gloat how right they were. Whereas, the pre-trib position folks seem to have most folk's best interest in mind and want to "comfort one another with these words" as Paul wrote.

We are not going to agree on every minute detail of eschatology, but we don't have to resort to slander and inflammatory comments. It is likely that all of us will have egg on our face in some way on how we viewed the upcoming events. And it is our job to present Yeshua to a lost world that He overcomes and wins and wants as many as possible to be a part of that.

This is true.