Is the Rapture shown in 1Thess 4 showing in Revelation? If so, where?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Discuss please..........

1Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD

Introduction:
See our main Rapture page here.

1. Rapture doctrine is one of the most recent "new doctrines" in the history of the Church. The only doctrine more recent is the invention of the sinner's prayer for salvation by Billy Sunday in 1930, which was made popular by Billy Graham in 1935.

2. The fact that John Nelson Darby invented the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine around 1830 AD is unquestionably true. All attempts to find evidence of this wild doctrine before 1830 have failed, with a single exception: Morgan Edwards wrote a short essay as a college paper for Bristol Baptist College in Bristol England in 1744 where he confused the second coming with the first resurrection of Revelation 20 and described a "pre-tribulation" rapture. However Edwards ideas, which he admitted were brand new and never before taught, had no influence in the modern population of the false doctrine. That prize to goes to Darby.

3. Prior to 1830, no church taught it in their creed, catechism or statement of faith.

4. Darby has had a profound impact on religion today, since Darby's "secret rapture" false doctrine has infected most conservative, evangelical churches. While the official creeds and statements of faith of many churches either reject or are silent about Rapture, neither do they openly condemn this doctrine of a demon from the pulpit.

5. While not all dispensationalists believe in the Rapture. All those who teach the Rapture also believe in premillennialism. Both groups use Israel's modern statehood status of 1948 to be a beginning of a countdown to the end.

6. All premillennialists, rapturists and dispensationalists alive today believe the Bible reveals the general era of when Christ will return. The date setters of the 1800's (Seventh-day Adventists who are date setting premillennialists who reject the rapture, Jehovah's Witnesses who have set many dates) based their predictions upon speculative arrangements of numbers and chronologies in the Bible. Today's date setters without exception wrongly believe that Israel gaining state hood in 1948 fulfilled Bible prophecy and that Christ would return within one generation.

7. There are two kinds of premillennialists: Those "Date setters" and "Date Teasers". "Date setters", set specific dates which are in fact a countdown clock to the extinction of their own ministries. (William Miller, Charles Russell, Ronald Weinland, Harold Camping, etc.) "Date teasers", share the same rhetoric of urgency that the "end is very soon", but refuse to lock into a specific date. (Jack Van Impe, Hal Lindsay, Tim LaHaye, Pentecostals, Baptists, Grant Jefferies, Christadelphians.)

8. Most of the TV preachers who promote rapture and/or "date set" all wrongly believe they are a prophet of God with special illumination. Pentecostals believe they are inspired directly from the Holy Spirit as modern day prophets. Baptists believe they are illuminated with guidance from the Holy Spirit through the Calvinist doctrine of Irresistible grace.

9. Christians reject all these false notions of God illuminating man and rely upon the pages of the Bible alone as a sole source of conduct and doctrine. . Find a church that exposes the Rapture as a heresy in your own home town.

Further study:

1. Does Revelation prophecy today's current events?
2. Did the last days begin this century? Are we living in the last days yet?
3. Who is the ANTICHRIST?
4. 50 ways Rapture and pre-millennialism contradicts the Bible

 

[seventysevens]

Yes

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Other.....
if it is, I am not sure where.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes

Thks for your vote......Where is it showing?

 

[DavidPT]

Discuss please..........

1Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Let's look at 1 Thessalonians 4 then.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


What does this plainly tell us? Does it not tell us there can be no rapture without there first being a resurrection preceding it? Shouldn't that mean we look for a resurrection context in the book of Revelation?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Here happens to be resurrection context. The first resurrection meant here has to be applying to 1 Thessalonians 4:16 then. And if so, that can mean only one thing, logically, though no direct mention of a rapture in Revelation 20, a rapture still has to occur around this same time since that is the pattern laid out in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17----a resurrection followed by a rapture. Both contexts, in Thessalonians 4:16-17 and Revelation 20:4 and verse 6, involves only the resurrection of the saved and not the unsaved as well. Based on this then, it can be logically deduced that Revelation 20:4 and verse 6 also involve a rapture.

 

[BABerean2]

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Could the 2 witnesses ascending to heaven in a cloud be seen as the "rapture"?

Revelation 13:
10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
11 And after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were beholding them.
12 And they heard a loud Voice from heaven saying to them, “ascend ye here!”
And they ascended into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.
13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; and seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

[DavidPT]

Could the 2 witnesses ascending to heaven in a cloud be seen as the "rapture"?

Revelation 13:
10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
11 And after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were beholding them.
12 And they heard a loud Voice from heaven saying to them, “ascend ye here!”
And they ascended into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.
13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; and seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

If it can that would have to mean a resurrection from the dead has to precede it though. Strangely enough, there is also a resurrection of the dead found in the above context, and that it precedes their rising into the air. So who knows then? Maybe you have a valid point here?

 

[seventysevens]

This is why it is so important to truly understand , other matters DEEPLY , such the Feast days , Firsts Fruits and other matters as there is more than a surface understanding , many prophetic verses use horticultural methods to speak to the rapture and the 2nd coming , just as scripture makes reference to Not putting new wine into old wine skins , as it is more than simply putting wine into a wine skin , there is a deeper meaning to it , When Jesus was asked why he spoke in parables , it was because if he spoke in a literal manner they would not understand , so he spoke in a manner that they would be able to relate to , parables most often are just a different way of speaking of something literally put in a way that people can relate to when they cannot literally see it ,

 

[seventysevens]

Could the 2 witnesses ascending to heaven in a cloud be seen as the "rapture"?

Revelation 13:
10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
11 And after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were beholding them.
12 And they heard a loud Voice from heaven saying to them, “ascend ye here!”
And they ascended into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.
13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; and seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Yes , but not the rapture of the entire church , as some has already been raptured before them, there is reason why there a views that speak of a pre mid and post rapture , and why they are referred to as harvests of souls , just like grapes , there is a gathering harvest of the grapes that are currently ripe and would spoil if they were not harvested if waiting for the rest of the grapes to ripen , then there is the practice of leaving some of the harvests at each of the four corners of the field , for others to harvest -

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

.

We posted about the same time.

What do others think of the similarity between Ezekiel 37 "valley of the bones" event and the event of the 2 witnesses in Reve 11?

Ezekiel 37:
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11 Then He said to me, "Son of adam! these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, 'Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!'

Revelation 11:11
And after the three days and half a breath of life out of the God entered in them,
and they stand/esthsan <2476> (5627) upon their feet,
and great fear falls upon those seeing them.

 

[DavidPT]

Yes , but not the rapture of the entire church

If that is true that would mean there was also the resurrection of the dead as well. Pretib is based on the alleged fact that the church is spared the wrath coming, meaning to most Pretribbers, the GT. But the already dead though, meaning those who rise first, they wouldn't need to be spared the wrath of the GT. Why would they need to rise at that particular time then, assuming Pretrib?

 

[ewq1938]

The rapture is not depicted in Revelation. It's really only mentioned a couple times in the gospels and in one of Paul's letters. Rev focuses on other events.

 

[BABerean2]

What do others think of the similarity between Ezekiel 37 "valley of the bones" event and the event of the 2 witnesses in Reve 11?

Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

It is the New Covenant that is the "everlasting" covenant in Hebrews 13:20. Christ is the "sanctuary" in the New Covenant.

Both texts are describing the resurrection of the dead, described by Christ in John 5:27-30.

2Co_6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[seventysevens]

If that is true that would mean there was also the resurrection of the dead as well. Pretib is based on the alleged fact that the church is spared the wrath coming, meaning to most Pretribbers, the GT. But the already dead though, meaning those who rise first, they wouldn't need to be spared the wrath of the GT. Why would they need to rise at that particular time then, assuming Pretrib?

This is exactly the reason why i made post #9 , approx 80%+ of the Church do not truly study , they may read but not really study , most just prefer to listen in church services to learn and that be about as far as they will go , but yet will proclaim they "know" the scriptures .
A person MUST fully and deeply understand the Fullness of the scripture teachings of the First Fruits and the HOLY Feast days , - most people do not know this , it be like knowing 16 letters of the alphabet and claiming they KNOW the alphabet ,some people that can barely read proclaiming that they have no problem reading

Post tribbers do not truly grasp the fullness because they choose not to , they choose not to study to know WHY the Great Trib happens and why Jesus speaks specifically about it , as they prefer to believe it is just the same as the everyday tribulations that everyone goes through ,

That is like comparing any and every flood to be exactly the same as the flood of Noah's day.

Simple analogy - two people fishing and one that does not catch fish ,- sitting beside a person catching many fish telling the him (the other) he needs to put a weight on his fishing line to take the worm down to where the fish are , but that person not catching fish chooses not to do that , they simply choose not to because "they" don't want to .
The HOLY Feast Days ARE indeed GODs HOLY DAYS and some people do not want to accept that as they try to say they are just men's religious days because they choose not to believe what God commanded

It is really like amil v premil where amil have no intention of even trying to see things in any other way than which they do , thinking that every answer to prophecy is found in the past and cannot be found in the future ,

In some biblical topics the mindset is like those who insist there is no free lunch and work is meant to be hard - it can take forever and a day to get people to open their minds eye to see all that scripture teaches, as they limit themselves and others to their point of view

Some people totally miss the point when they say it is all about what we do for God and what they think they must go through for God , when all through the scriptures it is GOD saying Stand Still and watch God Handle it , ALL God requires is to believe that HE will HANDLE IT - ie -the walls of Jericho

This topic is brought up in a new thread every few weeks and the same old same old argument starts all over again
Which is why it be beneficial to all to simply study IN DEPTH First Fruits , Gods HOLY Feast Days , the barley harvest , the wheat harvest and the grapes harvest and study to find out why these topics are used to teach biblical principals by the apostles and Jesus including the rapture and harvests of souls
and the First Resurrection in deep detail because these are more deeply detailed than most even begin to know

 

[narrowgateevangelist]

I was raised with a pretribulation doctrine inherent. It didn't sit right. So recently I looked into the doctrine more

It's relatively new. Starting around the time of the charismatic movement. A lot of heresies have reentered the church since then. So I'm reticent about accepting them.

As a living member of the body of Christ. He'll sustain my soul, no matter what is happening on the face of the earth.

 

[BABerean2]

I was raised with a pretribulation doctrine inherent. It didn't sit right. So recently I looked into the doctrine more

It's relatively new. Starting around the time of the charismatic movement. A lot of heresies have reentered the church since then. So I'm reticent about accepting them.

As a living member of the body of Christ. He'll sustain my soul, no matter what is happening on the face of the earth.

You are correct.

I was quite upset at the fact that my pastors never told those sitting in the pews that the doctrine they were teaching was brought to America about the time of the Civil War.

The following resources will confirm the recent history of the doctrine.



PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
http://www.regal-network.com/dispensationalism/pdfs.htm


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf


Genesis of Dispensational Theology

.

 

[seventysevens]

I was raised with a pretribulation doctrine inherent. It didn't sit right. So recently I looked into the doctrine more

It's relatively new. Starting around the time of the charismatic movement. A lot of heresies have reentered the church since then. So I'm reticent about accepting them.

As a living member of the body of Christ. He'll sustain my soul, no matter what is happening on the face of the earth.

An example of what I said when people do not study - If you really studied the topic you would find that pre trib has been taught since Paul wrote of the rapture in His day- where people get this error is thinking that they can get deep truth in a few google clicks , it is easy to get a link into the top 10 google links so that people will see the link , it is a simple marketing strategy to get noticed quickly as studies show that most people will only search through the first page or two of google searches
the word rapture came from the Protestants in around the 16th -17th century and most , nearly all church goers never heard the word harpazo which is the Greek word Paul used , then St Jerome translated it into raperium , rapiemur . rapio, in the Latin Vulgate then it was translated into English as rapture ,
they all mean the same thing referring to the sudden unexpected snatching away, catching away ,caught away suddenly by force and taken to another location

9 out of 10 churches refuse to teach bible prophecy , which causes people who are interested in doing quick google searches and accept misinformation as truth simply because they want to do only a quick search and not a full on study ,

 

[brinny]

Discuss please..........

1Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

THIS.