Is the Rapture shown in 1Thess 4 showing in Revelation? If so, where?

[seventysevens]

"
While you give no Scripture and since you can not back up your thoughts with the Word of God, that is when it becomes "your post".

Obviously you either did not read or understand the posts that I gave validation of the rapture , your understanding of scripture failed just as you failed to see my scriptural evidence , ya know it's not like this thread is 40 pages long , it would seem that you could read the only 2 pages of the thread , you show various evidences of how you rush through your readings which cause your failure to understand what you read

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

When you said there is no rapture - that invalidates - as it shows you do not understand scripture because the rapture is 100% true and 100% Biblical - you should know that IF you really studied the topic

Yeah, you would think so.........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

Views of eschatological timing
According to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and Matthew 24:37-40 the rapture would occur in the Parousia of the Lord where the Greek "Parousia" is used to describe the events:

Matthew 24:37-40 NIV

37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming (παρουσία Parousia)[33] of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming (παρουσία Parousia)[34] of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 ASV
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord (παρουσίαν Parousia),[32] will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Premillenialist views
Though the Catholic Church does not generally regard biblical prophecy in texts such as Daniel and Revelation as strictly future-based (when viewed from the standpoint of our present time), in 1590 Francisco Ribera, a Catholic Jesuit, taught "futurism"—the idea that most of Revelation is about the imminent future (rather than containing certain prophecies that were already fulfilled in the early years of the church)......

Pre-tribulational Premillennialism
The pre-tribulation position advocates that the rapture will occur before the beginning of a seven-year tribulation period, while the second coming will occur at the end of it. Pre-tribulationists often describe the rapture as Jesus coming for the church and the second coming as Jesus coming with the church........

Mid-tribulational Premillennialism
The mid-tribulation position espouses that the rapture will occur at some point in the middle of what is popularly called the tribulation period, or during Daniel's 70th Week. The tribulation is typically divided into two periods of 3.5 years each. Mid-tribulationists hold that the saints will go through the first period (Beginning of Travail), but will be raptured into Heaven before the severe outpouring of God's wrath in the second half of what is popularly called the great tribulation. Mid-tribulationists appeal to Daniel 7:25 which says the saints will be given over to tribulation for "time, times, and half a time,..............

Prewrath Premillennialism
Main article: Prewrath
The prewrath rapture view also places the rapture at some point during the tribulation period before the second coming. This view holds that the tribulation of the church begins toward the latter part of a seven-year period, being Daniel's 70th week, when the Antichrist is revealed in the temple. This latter half of a seven-year period [i.e. 3 1/2 years] is defined as the great tribulation, although the exact duration is not known...........

Partial Pre-Tribulation Pre-millennialism
The partial, conditional or selective rapture theory holds that all obedient Christians will be raptured before the great tribulation depending on ones personal fellowship (or closeness) between she or he and God, which is not to be confused with the relationship between the same and God (which is believer, regardless of fellowship.) [68][69] Therefore, it is believed by some that the rapture of a believer is determined by the timing of his conversion before the great tribulation.............

Post-tribulational Premillennialism
Main article: Post-tribulation rapture
In the post-tribulation premillennial position, the rapture would be identical to the second coming of Jesus or as a meeting in the air with Jesus that immediately precedes his return to the Earth before a literal millennium. The post-tribulation position places the rapture at the end of the tribulation period. Post-tribulation writers define the tribulation period in a generic sense as the entire present age, or in a specific sense of a period of time preceding the second coming of Christ.[72] The emphasis in this view is that the church will undergo the tribulation............

Post-Millennialism
Main article: Postmillennialism
In the Post-Millennialism view the millennium is seen as an indefinitely long time thus precluding literal interpretation of a thousand-year period. According to Loraine Boettner "the world will be Christianized, and the return of Christ will occur at the close of a long period of righteousness and peace, commonly called the millennium."[76] Post-Millennialists commonly view the rapture of the Church as one and the same event as the second coming of Christ. According to them the great tribulation was already fulfilled in the Jewish-Roman War of 66–73 AD that involved the destruction of Jerusalem..............

Amillennialism
Main article: Amillennialism
Amillennialists view the millennial rule of Christ as the current, but indefinite period that began with the foundation of the church and that will end with the Second Coming—a period where Christ already reigns with his saints through the Eucharist and his church. They view the life of the church as Christ's kingdom already established (inaugurated on the day of the Pentecost described in the first chapter of Acts), but not to made complete until his second coming..............

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.........

 

[ewq1938]

LOL Seriously ??? that is nearly verbatim the very definition of the EXACT word that Paul used You are not even close !
Here is the very exact definition :

Harpazo IS the word that is used

Strong’s Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad’-zo)
Definition: I seize, snatch,

Nothing about unexpected there is there?

HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

Nothing about unexpected there is there?

The Rapture isn't unexpected in the slightest. Paul tells us what events to watch for to know when the return of Christ and the rapture will be coming so not a surprise to anyone involved.

 

[Mal'ak]

Yes

..No scripture

This is why it is so important to truly understand , other matters DEEPLY , such the Feast days , Firsts Fruits and other matters as there is more than a surface understanding , many prophetic verses use horticultural methods to speak to the rapture and the 2nd coming , just as scripture makes reference to Not putting new wine into old wine skins , as it is more than simply putting wine into a wine skin , there is a deeper meaning to it , When Jesus was asked why he spoke in parables , it was because if he spoke in a literal manner they would not understand , so he spoke in a manner that they would be able to relate to , parables most often are just a different way of speaking of something literally put in a way that people can relate to when they cannot literally see it ,

..no Scripture

Yes , but not the rapture of the entire church , as some has already been raptured before them, there is reason why there a views that speak of a pre mid and post rapture , and why they are referred to as harvests of souls , just like grapes , there is a gathering harvest of the grapes that are currently ripe and would spoil if they were not harvested if waiting for the rest of the grapes to ripen , then there is the practice of leaving some of the harvests at each of the four corners of the field , for others to harvest -

...no scripture

If that is true that would mean there was also the resurrection of the dead as well. Pretib is based on the alleged fact that the church is spared the wrath coming, meaning to most Pretribbers, the GT. But the already dead though, meaning those who rise first, they wouldn't need to be spared the wrath of the GT. Why would they need to rise at that particular time then, assuming Pretrib?

...no scripture

This is exactly the reason why i made post #9 , approx 80%+ of the Church do not truly study , they may read but not really study , most just prefer to listen in church services to learn and that be about as far as they will go , but yet will proclaim they "know" the scriptures .
A person MUST fully and deeply understand the Fullness of the scripture teachings of the First Fruits and the HOLY Feast days , - most people do not know this , it be like knowing 16 letters of the alphabet and claiming they KNOW the alphabet ,some people that can barely read proclaiming that they have no problem reading

Post tribbers do not truly grasp the fullness because they choose not to , they choose not to study to know WHY the Great Trib happens and why Jesus speaks specifically about it , as they prefer to believe it is just the same as the everyday tribulations that everyone goes through ,

That is like comparing any and every flood to be exactly the same as the flood of Noah's day.

Simple analogy - two people fishing and one that does not catch fish ,- sitting beside a person catching many fish telling the him (the other) he needs to put a weight on his fishing line to take the worm down to where the fish are , but that person not catching fish chooses not to do that , they simply choose not to because "they" don't want to .
The HOLY Feast Days ARE indeed GODs HOLY DAYS and some people do not want to accept that as they try to say they are just men's religious days because they choose not to believe what God commanded

It is really like amil v premil where amil have no intention of even trying to see things in any other way than which they do , thinking that every answer to prophecy is found in the past and cannot be found in the future ,

In some biblical topics the mindset is like those who insist there is no free lunch and work is meant to be hard - it can take forever and a day to get people to open their minds eye to see all that scripture teaches, as they limit themselves and others to their point of view

Some people totally miss the point when they say it is all about what we do for God and what they think they must go through for God , when all through the scriptures it is GOD saying Stand Still and watch God Handle it , ALL God requires is to believe that HE will HANDLE IT - ie -the walls of Jericho

This topic is brought up in a new thread every few weeks and the same old same old argument starts all over again
Which is why it be beneficial to all to simply study IN DEPTH First Fruits , Gods HOLY Feast Days , the barley harvest , the wheat harvest and the grapes harvest and study to find out why these topics are used to teach biblical principals by the apostles and Jesus including the rapture and harvests of souls
and the First Resurrection in deep detail because these are more deeply detailed than most even begin to know

...no Scripture

An example of what I said when people do not study - If you really studied the topic you would find that pre trib has been taught since Paul wrote of the rapture in His day- where people get this error is thinking that they can get deep truth in a few google clicks , it is easy to get a link into the top 10 google links so that people will see the link , it is a simple marketing strategy to get noticed quickly as studies show that most people will only search through the first page or two of google searches
the word rapture came from the Protestants in around the 16th -17th century and most , nearly all church goers never heard the word harpazo which is the Greek word Paul used , then St Jerome translated it into raperium , rapiemur . rapio, in the Latin Vulgate then it was translated into English as rapture ,
they all mean the same thing referring to the sudden unexpected snatching away, catching away ,caught away suddenly by force and taken to another location

9 out of 10 churches refuse to teach bible prophecy , which causes people who are interested in doing quick google searches and accept misinformation as truth simply because they want to do only a quick search and not a full on study ,

….no Scripture

LOL Seriously ??? that is nearly verbatim the very definition of the EXACT word that Paul used You are not even close !
Here is the very exact definition :

Harpazo IS the word that is used

Strong’s Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad’-zo)
Definition: I seize, snatch,

HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

The story of Phillip baptism of the eunuch ,
notice that the words “caught away”
in verse 39 are in the Greek writing of Acts 8:39 is Harpazo – identically exactly the very same word used in Thessalonians where Paul speaks of the rapture of the whole church.

39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

in a split second as they come up out of the water Phillip is raptured -caught away -harpazo and taken to a city 30 miles away in a mere split second of time. , God snatched Phillip and placed him in a city 30 miles away .

ἥρπασεν is used in Acts 8:39

ἁρπαγησόμεθα ,,,

harpazo....harpagēsometha
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g726

The form of #726 is used in both Acts 8 and 1 Thess 4 .. there are various spellings , but are interchangeable and mean the same thing- to be snatched away with Force ,Unexpectedly and without warning

some definitions say violent force , as in snatching away money out of someones hand

Here is one Scripture, showing God can "caught away" or move people instantly. The Father is all powerful he can do anything, was not the topic though, as the doctrine of the "rapture" is much more then if God is physically capable of moving people around.

Wrong - your post is invalid and you need to actually study what scripture really says ad means

….and no Scripture, I do not want to say you lied. But by the facts, no Scripture was shown in any of your posts to support the "rapture" doctrine. But good job on showing God is powerful enough to move someone from one place to another.

 

[NW82]

Obvious there is no scripture evidence in your post , so your post is invalid - I put scripture in my other posts

Considering I made no other point other than that many people aren't citing anything and then attacking others...why would there be any scripture to that? Also I think you took my post personally, considering it was a generalized statement regarding the actions of people on the whole.

 

[dfw69]

Before that vision is revealed to John - John himself was caught up in Revelation 4.


1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee hereafter.

things which must be "hereafter" the rapture? Or hereafter into the future? Or hereafter to the rest of Revelation?

Yes for me the rapture is picture in john entering heaven after the prophecy of the 7 churches... .

Yahannah means gods favor/grace

By grace and favor we been saved..

 

[Douggg]

Did John travel physically to heaven at that time?

John was in the state of being in the Spirit in chapter 1. The only person John saw in the first three chapters was Jesus.

Those first three chapters do not appear to be taking place in heaven. As in Chapter 4, he saw a door opened in heaven, and told to come up hither.

So apparently wherever John was in being in the Spirit in the first the three chapters, it was not in heaven.

In Chapter 4, I think John was still in the state of being in the Spirit, and within that state experienced a replication of the rapture. The reason being not just for the being called up, but also being immediately transformed. Which John says in verse 2 of immediately he was in the spirit.

John was not in his physical body to start with at the beginning of Revelation, so he could not have experienced any transformation of his physical body. So what John experienced was the equivalency of.

 

[ewq1938]

John wasn't raptured, from one place to another, he traveled in time to the future and visited heaven and Earth. This is proven because he wrote things down and was to bring this back with him which means this wasn't just a dream or vision and wasn't just a spiritual journey. He used his "notes" to write the book of Rev.

John was taken to the future in Rev. When he was there he was writing things down that he saw...that was taken back with him to his own time.


Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Rev_1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev_1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Rev_10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

He literally saw the future because he was taken there.

 

[seventysevens]

Nothing about unexpected there is there?




Nothing about unexpected there is there?

The Rapture isn't unexpected in the slightest. Paul tells us what events to watch for to know when the return of Christ and the rapture will be coming so not a surprise to anyone involved.

Nothing unexpected about your post being invalid and outright FALSE
The FACT that you seem NOT to understand that the LITERAL Definition of the word Harpazo and it's various spellings IS IN FACT DEFINED AS AS SUDDEN UNEXPECTED SNATCHING AWAY BY FORCE WITHOUT NOTICE
BY SURPRISE TO ANYONE INVOLVED

IS in fact astonishing that you do not understand that the word Paul chose to use when describing the rapture is completely defeating the notion you have that it was not unexpected and literally a surprise to anyone involved

instead of giving your completely wrong opinion that is not even close to being valid - please provide verifiable factual evidence that what you say is valid
try doing research on the word harpazo - and if you think that Paul did not use that word or it's various spellings as I previously gave - provide which word Paul did use

http://biblehub.com/greek/726.htm
ἁρπαγησόμεθα ,,,

harpazo....harpagēsometha

You suppose that Phillip was expecting that he would be Snatched away out of the water and taken to another city in a split second ?
NOT
you express a most peculiar idea of being expected , even the scriptures that speak about the return of Jesus state
"at a moment you think not , the Son of Man cometh"
so even though we are taught that it will happen and to look for it and be prepared for it - when it happens it will be unexpected as happening at a time "that you think not"

 

[seventysevens]

.
Here is one Scripture, showing God can "caught away" or move people instantly. The Father is all powerful he can do anything, was not the topic though, as the doctrine of the "rapture" is much more then if God is physically capable of moving people around.

When you say this , it seems that you do not realize that the thread is about the rapture , and IF you were to put forth any effort at all to study the topic , you would then find that the rapture is the very word that is used in scripture when God "moving people around " the doctrine of the rapture if it really be called a doctrine is quite literally God moving people from one place to another place , to where HE sees fit to move them, I was making the point that in the first sentence of your previous post you said there is no rapture and it was created for people who fear - and that is without any doubt 100% FALSE ---IF you would have studied ,you would know it is scripture that Jesus will Harpazo people to where ever He wants them and He will Harpazo us up into the air to be with HIM Forever and that is a BLESSING

 

[Douggg]

So to the question; when is the "rapture" of 1Thessalonians 4:17?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We don't have a date for the resurrection/rapture. But Paul continuing in 1Thessalonians 5 did indicate that the resurrection/rapture will take place before the Day of the Lord begins. The resurrection/rapture is in verses 9-11.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The beginning of the Day of the Lord is triggered by the act by the person who will thought to be the messiah (prior to the act) by the Jews and the world at the time - when out of nowhere, totally unexpected, he goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.

We can make an approximation of the timing being about 3 years 3 months after the 7 years begin.

God then has the person killed for his audacious act (Ezekiel 28:1-10), then in Isaiah 14:19-20, in disdain for the person brings him back alive. At that time, the person becomes possessed and becomes the beast of Revelation 13.

The image made of him and placed in the temple will be 1335 days before Jesus returns. The 1335 days comes from Daniel 12:12.

Which the 1335 days, therefore, begin on day 1185 of the timeline. Day 1185 is the AoD day... triggering the great tribulation.

Which is how we can approximate his initial claim of being God in Thessalonians2:4 will be around 3 years 3 months (i.e. 1170 days) into the seven years. Maybe a little earlier; it is just an approximation.

The 2Thessalonians2:4 act, the transgression of desolation, triggers the beginning years of the Day of the Lord. It is just the beginning years of the Day of the Lord is where the great tribulation takes place. The Day of the Lord itself includes the millennium reign, the destruction of this present heaven and earth, the Great White Throne Judgement, the new heaven and new earth and new Jerusalem, and then continues into eternity.

Once the Day of the Lord begins, the AoD day, a little later into it, at 1335 days before Jesus returns, triggers the great tribulation.

 

[seventysevens]

no one can really say exactly if John was raptured or not as scripture does not provide enough detail to know the possibilities , there may be variances in how Jesus utilizes his power , some people may call it rapture , others may not , both can be possible since we don't have enough data to say for sure , I think Jesus did not want too much emphasis of a rapture to be placed on John that would take a way the emphasis of the message he was giving to John to pass on to future generations of the written word .

The word is Ἀνάβα that depicts John going up into heaven when the door was open - the word means to ascend up .. so John did go up into heaven , no one else was present with John at the time to know if Johns physical body stayed on earth which is unlikely , but Jesus could have brought John up into heaven physically changing John temporarily for the purpose Jesus had to show John things - so the emphasis is not on what happened to John physically or not; but what John was to be shown and write down,

It is puzzling how and why people get so focused on what happened to John - if he physically went into heaven or not - it doesn't matter - Jesus IS GOD so he can do whatever he chooses , if He chose to change Johns body to be accommodating to the presence of heaven and then change it back to accommodate earth then that is what he can do - it doesn't change the Message he had for John to pass along to others on earth.

Heaven is eternal , eternity is no time limits , it is all of time and the future together in the now . That is the realm where the LORD and the angels reside and John going up into heaven is not a time machine , John actually seen what he seen literally - the verbiage that scripture is written in is sometimes difficult for some people to grasp as they have to have things written in a manner that fits in this temporary realm we live in - we see this when we see the negative reaction to people who say they had a near death experience , or they were clinically dead and then recovered and tell their stories of seeing a bright light and being in the presence of Jesus in heaven .

Some people insist that is not possible so they doubt any stories of people that have that type of experiences - so how can you prove if it really happened or not ? simply you can't , you either accept it or you don't . John experienced something that no one else in scripture experienced and some people just don't want to accept that it was real .
Paul also experienced something similar but he was so caught off guard as to what he experienced , he really did not know exactly how to describe it , How could he tell people that he was taken into heaven and be believed anymore than someone today to say the same thing, - so he just spoke of the matter as in the third person hoping that the Holy Spirit could relay the experience he had to those that could/would understand what he experienced

 

[claninja]

Discuss please..........

1Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

This occurs at the Lord's coming, no?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 corinthians 15:23, 51-52 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Jesus gives rewards at his coming, not before
revelation 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

 

[seventysevens]

This occurs at the Lord's coming, no?

.

The answer will depend on who you ask, pre trib post trib - the answer will be found by First having a deep though comprehensive understanding of WHY a rapture will happen and WHY there is a Great Tribulation HOUR OF TRIAL - that Jesus speaks about as it is a very specific period of time that Jesus has assigned
Due to the fact that some people prefer to believe that the Great Trib has already happened , they will not really understand , then there are those who refuse to believe that the Great Trib is any different than any other day
it will depend on what doctrine you follow as to what answer someone has
Understanding why Jesus Himself speaks of this Hour of Trial for those that refuse to repent of their sins , and understanding Why there is a rapture is key to the correct answer . sadly though some folks need to squeeze the rapture into their doctrine rather than accept scripture as it is plainly written

 

[BABerean2]

It is puzzling how and why people get so focused on what happened to John - if he physically went into heaven or not - it doesn't matter

It matters to those who are promoting the pretrib doctrine.
They claim the Church is not mentioned after Revelation chapter 4, when John is called up to heaven.

However, the Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb.
A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

.

 

[seventysevens]

It matters to those who are promoting the pretrib doctrine.
They claim the Church is not mentioned after Revelation chapter 4, when John is called up to heaven.
.

Simple question - show any scripture that shows for certain that any person that was a born again Christian PRIOR TO as in Before the GT begins , goes through the GT - you will not find anything at all that evens suggests it - all you can find is people that after the GT has begun and AFTER 2Thess2 has happened there are people that did not believe that realized their error and then chose to accept Christ as savoir , and they are those you find later on in Revelation as martyrs

As typical you accept only that which you prefer .
As I said some will say it is a rapture , some will say it is not and it does not matter - But it is true that the BORN AGAIN Church is not found after chapter 4 -IF you understand what the scripture is telling -
Because you follow a doctrine that insists there is no 1000 year period of time that satan is imprisoned or to say that it has already happened , not likely you will understand the book of Revelation

Those who are born again found in the last chapters of the book are those who accepted Jesus AFTER the rapture has already happened , it is related to the process of how the Jews that refused to accept that Jesus is their messiah , they then learn and accept Jesus is their messiah and accept him , but then they must go through the GT until the final harvest of souls happen

 

[Douggg]

By grace and favor we been saved.

Agreed.

 

[claninja]

the answer will be found by First having a deep though comprehensive understanding of WHY a rapture will happen and WHY there is a Great Tribulation HOUR OF TRIAL - that Jesus speaks about as it is a very specific period of time that Jesus has assigned

1.)Well, According to Jesus, the great tribulation is God's wrath against the Jewish people:
Luke 21:22-23 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against THIS PEOPLE.
According to the book of Daniel, the great tribulation is against the Jews:
Daniel 12:1 There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered


2.) Jesus compares the day of the Lord to a thief in the night and like the flood in Noah's day: peace and safety (eating, drinking marrying), then sudden destruction (the flood took them away).
Matthew 24:38-39, 42-43 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming,
Paul restates this, the day of the Lord is like a thief in the night, peace and safety, then sudden destruction.
1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 For you are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.


3.) Believers are not raptured out of the great tribulation, they are told to escape the great tribulation by fleeing:
Luke 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.
Luke 21:36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
Matthew 24:16 then let those in Judea flee to the mountains
Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath
Revelation 18:4 Come out of her, my people,d so that you will not share in her sins
or contract any of her plagues.


4.) After the tribulation and after believers have fled from Jerusalem, the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven and then the resurrection occurs (dead rise, alive caught up)
Matthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days:
Matthew 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
Daniel 12:2-3 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wisea will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
Matthew 24:31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

1 thessalonians 4:15-17 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

 

[DavidPT]

..No scripture



..no Scripture



...no scripture



...no scripture



...no Scripture



….no Scripture





Here is one Scripture, showing God can "caught away" or move people instantly. The Father is all powerful he can do anything, was not the topic though, as the doctrine of the "rapture" is much more then if God is physically capable of moving people around.



….and no Scripture, I do not want to say you lied. But by the facts, no Scripture was shown in any of your posts to support the "rapture" doctrine. But good job on showing God is powerful enough to move someone from one place to another.

I noticed you quoted one of my posts in here, then said of that post....no Scripture. What point are you making in regards to that post of mine since I'm arguing against Pretrib, not for it instead?

 

[claninja]

But Paul continuing in 1Thessalonians 5 did indicate that the resurrection/rapture will take place before the Day of the Lord begins. The resurrection/rapture is in verses 9-11.

I’m actually not seeing where it says the resurrection/rapture occurs specifically before the day of the Lord.

According to Jesus the resurrection occurs after the great tribulation, after believers flee the tribulation, when sign of the son of man appears in heaven:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 24:29-31&version=ESV