Is the Rapture shown in 1Thess 4 showing in Revelation? If so, where?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Discuss please..........

1Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

THIS.

Thanks for responding and voting brinny.
What place in Revelation do you see it showing that event? Thanks

 

[brinny]

Discuss please..........

1Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

It couldn't be any more clearer, could it?

 

[brinny]

What place in Revelation do you see it showing that event? Thanks

Now i'm gonna haf'ta search.....

i remember reading it there.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

.

Before that vision is revealed to John - John himself was caught up in Revelation 4.


1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee hereafter.

things which must be "hereafter" the rapture? Or hereafter into the future? Or hereafter to the rest of Revelation?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It couldn't be any more clearer, could it?

One would think so. Thks for posting.

I suppose I should quote the whole passage.
As time permits, I will look at the greek of each verse and see where some of those words apply in Revelation and the Olivet Discourse.

First, Paul uses the same greek word #3952 in vs 15 that is used in Matthew 24
[note that this greek word #3952 is used only 4 times in the Gospels, all in Matt 24]

Matthew 24:3
He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came toward to Him according to own, saying,
"be telling us! when shall these be?
and what the Sign of the Thy parousiaV <3952>,
and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?"

KJV)
1 Thessalonians 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming/parousian <3952> of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[BABerean2]

Before that vision is revealed to John - John himself was caught up in Revelation 4.


1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee hereafter.

Did John travel physically to heaven at that time?

After that occurred was John shown events occurring on the earth?
Did John travel back to the earth, when shown events on earth?

Since John was presented with things occurring both in heaven and on earth in the Book of Revelation, did John travel back and forth between earth and heaven like a Yo-Yo?

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Now i'm gonna haf'ta search.....

i remember reading it there.

Take yer time sis......hopefully this thread will be around at least till the "rapture" comes

 

[ewq1938]

tudies show that most people will only search through the first page or two of google searches
the word rapture came from the Protestants in around the 16th -17th century and most , nearly all church goers never heard the word harpazo which is the Greek word Paul used , then St Jerome translated it into raperium , rapiemur . rapio, in the Latin Vulgate then it was translated into English as rapture ,
they all mean the same thing referring to the sudden unexpected snatching away, catching away ,caught away suddenly by force and taken to another location

It does not mean a sudden or unexpected snatching away and Paul wrote against the idea of that type of a rapture, the first to teach against the pre-trib rapture concept.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The rapture is not depicted in Revelation. It's really only mentioned a couple times in the gospels and in one of Paul's letters. Rev focuses on other events.

Thank you for your input..........it does focus on a lot of other events.....

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Before that vision is revealed to John - John himself was caught up in Revelation 4.1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee hereafter.

things which must be "hereafter" the rapture? Or hereafter into the future? Or hereafter to the rest of Revelation?

Wasn't John in the spirit all thru Revelation?

Revelation 1:10 shows him in the spirit on the Lord's day.
However, in 4:2 it shows he was immediately in spirit. Any thought on this?

Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
Revelation 4:2
Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.

And there is this awesome verse:

Revelation 17:3
So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness.
And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

 

[seventysevens]

It does not mean a sudden or unexpected snatching away and Paul wrote against the idea of that type of a rapture, the first to teach against the pre-trib rapture concept.

LOL Seriously ??? that is nearly verbatim the very definition of the EXACT word that Paul used You are not even close !
Here is the very exact definition :

Harpazo IS the word that is used

Strong’s Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad’-zo)
Definition: I seize, snatch,

HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

The story of Phillip baptism of the eunuch ,
notice that the words “caught away”
in verse 39 are in the Greek writing of Acts 8:39 is Harpazo – identically exactly the very same word used in Thessalonians where Paul speaks of the rapture of the whole church.

39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

in a split second as they come up out of the water Phillip is raptured -caught away -harpazo and taken to a city 30 miles away in a mere split second of time. , God snatched Phillip and placed him in a city 30 miles away .

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LOL Seriously ??? that is nearly verbatim the very definition of the EXACT word that Paul used You are not even close !
Here is the very exact definition :
Harpazo IS the word that is used

Strong’s Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad’-zo)
Definition: I seize, snatch,

HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

PROOF That the rapture is NOT silent , NOT unseen but still this false notion that it is silent and unseen promoted by some fictitious movie and books is what some people prefer to believe

That is an interesting greek word.
The form of #726 that Paul uses is only used in the 1 verse:

Strong's Number G726 matches the Greek ἁρπάζω (harpazō), which occurs 17 times in 13 verses

1Thessalonians 4:17
Thereafter we, the ones living, the ones surviving/remaining<4035>, same-time<260> together to them shall be being seized-away/ἁρπαγησόμεθα<726> into clouds<3507> into meeting<529> of the Lord into the air<109> thus always together to Lord we shall be.<2071>[1510]

John 17:11
And not still I-am in the world, and these in the world are,
and I toward Thee am coming........

Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth a Son, a male, who is about to be Shepherding/poimainein <4165> (5721) all the Nations in iron rod/staff.
And is caught-away/ἡρπάσθη<726> the child of her toward the God, and toward the throne of Him.

Different greek word used in Acts 1 and Luke 21

Acts 1:9
And these things saying, of them looking He was taken/lifted up<1869>, and a cloud did receive Him up from their sight/eyes
10 and as they were looking intently into the heaven of going of Him, and behold! two men stand beside to them in white attires

Luke 21:
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up<1869> your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

1869. epairo ep-ahee'-ro from 1909 and 142; to raise up (literally or figuratively):--exalt self, poise (lift, take) up.

 

[seventysevens]

ἥρπασεν is used in Acts 8:39

ἁρπαγησόμεθα ,,,

harpazo....harpagēsometha
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g726

The form of #726 is used in both Acts 8 and 1 Thess 4 .. there are various spellings , but are interchangeable and mean the same thing- to be snatched away with Force ,Unexpectedly and without warning

some definitions say violent force , as in snatching away money out of someones hand

 

[Mal'ak]

There is no rapture, it was created for people that do not trust the Holy Father and fear satan more then they worship God. They read the doom of the end times, and they created a false doctrine to comfort themselves and many flock to believe this falsehood because it makes the fear go away. But satan uses our fears and worry to cause us to turn from God all the time, by thinking we are not going to be here he has claimed victory over many because none will seek their purpose during that time thinking they will not be here so they skip over Revelations. But when it does come, they will be in the dark alone with satan himself face to face, since he will be coming down to Earth in person and they will have no idea what to do.

Several places in the Bible talks about the tribulation of Christians by satan himself when he comes to Earth, and for those that read the book of Revelations knows satan himself does not appear until the end of the Tribulation. First is false prophet which will create the new "Christian religion", then Babylon which is the government to make is stronger and back it up with power/money, then satan will come to rule the established "nation".

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

So to the question; when is the "rapture" of 1Thessalonians 4:17?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Come key words to look at, "trump", which speaks of the trumpets that separates the stages of events in Revelation. The second thing to look at, is that it tell us "the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven", so we know the second coming of Christ happens BEFORE the "rapture" and third this is when he rises the "dead in Christ" first to him.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So here we learn two very important things about the end. One; that the trump that the "dead shall be raised" is the "last trump". So that is very important, in regards to the timeline set in the book of Revelations in the stages of the seven trumpets. The second thing we learn, is that the dead will be "raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed". This is a little side meat for those interested, the rising of the dead is not literal dead, it is the flesh we will be raised from, and when Jesus returns we will all be "changed" to our Spiritual bodies during the thousands years of Jesus' reign.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Now we get a little more of the timeline, as we see here that the two witnesses shall be killed by satan and left for three days. On the third day, just like with Jesus, they will be called to Heaven and the same day "the seventh angel sounded" and "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord" as he will have returned.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

The gathering of the "dead in Christ" is now answered, when he does return at the last trumpet after the tribulation, Jesus will gather all people and separate the Christians from the non-Christians. This goes to the gathering up to him, the Christians will go into the cloud while the non-Christians will remain on Earth during the thousand years. For the "in the clouds", it is another side note and not really needed to answer the question, but God the Father is so amazing he gives us more answers then what we need....

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Revelation 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Revelation 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

During the tribulation the temple in Heaven will be opened to the World, but none will be able to enter it until after the tribulation. It shows that the Angels and Jesus is at the temple on a white cloud, and there they will "reap" the Earth. So the going into the clouds with Jesus, is saying we will be gathered at the end of the Tribulation after we passed the test of satan into the temple in the sky that was opened.

 

[seventysevens]

There is no rapture, it was created for people that do not trust the Holy Father and fear satan more then they worship God.

Wrong - your post is invalid and you need to actually study what scripture really says ad means

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Let's look at the word "air<109>...........

1Thessalonians 4:17
Thereafter we, the ones living, the ones surviving/remaining<4035>, same-time<260> together to them shall be being seized-away/ἁρπαγησόμεθα<726> into clouds<3507> into meeting<529> of the Lord in the air<109>
thus always together to Lord we shall-be<2071>[1510]

109. aer ah-ayr' from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient):--air. Compare 5594.
Strong's Number G109 matches the Greek ἀήρ (aēr), which occurs 7 times in 7 verses
Act 22:23 1 corin 9:26, 14:9, Eph 2:2, Reve 9:2, 16:17

Acts 22:
22 Up to this word they listened to him. Then they raised their voices and said, “Away with such a fellow from the earth! For he should not be allowed to live.”
23 And as they were shouting and throwing off their cloaks and flinging dust into the air<109> [Revelation 16:17/Revelation 18:19]

Revelation 16:17
The seventh Messenger poured out His bowl into the air<109>, and a loud Voice came out of the Sanctuary, from the throne, saying, “It is finished!”

Revelation 18:19
And they cast dust upon their heads and cried-out lamenting and mourning saying
"Woe! Woe! the great City, in which are-rich all those having ships in the sea out of her preciousness! that in one hour She was desolated.

 

[NW82]

So many people espousing their opinion or telling others they are ignorant. If you do not cite scripture your post is not valid.

 

[Mal'ak]

Wrong - your post is invalid and you need to actually study what scripture really says ad means

"your post", "you need". Nothing of the post was me, besides the connecting of dots. 99% of the post was the Word of God, my words was to HELP continue the line of thought. I could delete every word I wrote, and leave just the Scripture and the conclusions will be the same....as I added nothing, and only quoted what it written as I connected the dots.

While you give no Scripture and since you can not back up your thoughts with the Word of God, that is when it becomes "your post".

Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

VS

Jesus "nope, you are wrong"

 

[seventysevens]

If you do not cite scripture your post is not valid.

Obvious there is no scripture evidence in your post , so your post is invalid - I put scripture in my other posts

 

[seventysevens]

"connecting of dots. 99% of the post was the Word of God,

When you said there is no rapture - that invalidates - as it shows you do not understand scripture because the rapture is 100% true and 100% Biblical - you should know that IF you really studied the topic