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Featured Is the Rapture Deception?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Devin P, Nov 3, 2018.

  1. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    Oh? I was under the impression that the reason fewer people subscribe to Darby's ideas these days is because it was mostly a Boomer thing.

    More Boomers die every year and their Gen X, Millennial and Gen Z successors generally have no time or use for this dispensational/"rapture"/Space Jesus nonsense.
     
  2. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    The events of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, which Paul had previously explained to the Thessalonians in person (2 Thessalonians 2:5). See also the "revealed" part of post #229 above.

    Also, Jesus had shown that His return could not happen until after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).
     
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    It is sometimes said that Jewish tradition requires that the bride go to the groom's father's house for the marriage.

    But note that the Bible itself does not say or require that Jesus Christ is going to take the Church to God the Father's house for the marriage. And we must not run after Jewish traditions which are not taught by the Bible (Mark 7:13, Colossians 2:8). Just as Isaac did not take Rebekah into his father's house, but into his mother's house (Genesis 24:67); and just as Jacob did not take Leah or Rachel into his father's house, but married them in a faraway land (Genesis 29:23-28); so nothing requires that Jesus has to marry the Church in God the Father's house in the third heaven, instead of in the clouds of the sky, the first heaven, at His future, Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 19:7).

    Why did Jesus allow Revelation 2:10?

    -

    It is sometimes thought that Luke 10:19 requires the physical protection of the entire Church at all times. But note that if Luke 10:19 refers to physical protection, then the verse could have applied only to the seventy people sent forth by Jesus Christ (Luke 10:1, Luke 10:17-20). And if Luke 10:19 applies to the entire Church, then it must mean that the power of Satan cannot hurt obedient Christians spiritually. For Satan, when allowed by God, can hurt and even kill obedient Christians physically (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). But obedient Christians overcome Satan spiritually even when they are physically killed by him (Revelation 12:11). For they are more than conquerors spiritually even when they are physically led like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36-37). For death is a gain for obedient Christians, as it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). So obedient Christians need have no fear of death (Hebrews 2:15).

    And at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, He will bring with Him from heaven all of the souls of all of the obedient Christians who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15). And they will all be resurrected into immortal physical bodies at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Corinthians 15:52-53). They will then reign on the earth with Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). And sometime after that, they will live forever on a future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5), as in a new surface for the earth. So no matter what evil forces have done to obedient Christians physically in the past, or are doing to them physically now, or in the future, such as during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), all obedient Christians of all times will ultimately have the victory (1 Corinthians 15:57; 1 John 5:4, Revelation 12:11, Revelation 15:2).
     
  4. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that no one in the early Church taught pre-trib.

    That's right.

    For even though the Church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10), the Church does not "replace" Israel, because Gentiles in the Church are grafted in by God to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16), which includes the Jews in the Church (Romans 11:1).

    That is, all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted by God into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted by God into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire Church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the Church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of Gentile Christians being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A Gentile Christian can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into by God, and he will receive an answer, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

    Also, all those in the Church, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

    Everyone should do that. For example, note that Mark 9:31 was literal, but Revelation 13:1-2 is symbolic.

    Note that post-trib takes the Millennium literally.

    It will be at the Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

    It will be after the future Millennium. See the "tares" part of post #307 above.

    Note that both will occur at the Second Coming. See the "descend" part of post #300 above.

    The order is Tribulation, then Second Coming and rapture/gathering-together (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

    Note that no scripture says that the Church will be removed (Proverbs 10:30), or that the rapture (which will be only as high as the clouds: 1 Thessalonians 4:17) can happen at any moment (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).
     
  5. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that not all Christians will die and be raised again, for some still-living Christians will be instantaneously changed into immortal bodies at Jesus' Second Coming. For:

    1 Corinthians 15:51 ¶Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [die], but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we [still-living] shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep [dead].
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [raptured] together with them [the resurrected dead] in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Also, when obedient Christians' bodies will be changed (if alive) or raised/resurrected (if dead) into spiritual/heavenly bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44-49), they will still be fleshly bodies, but no longer "natural", that is, no longer mortal, fleshly bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44,53). Instead, they will be immortal fleshly bodies like Jesus Christ Himself was raised/resurrected into on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25), by the spiritual/heavenly power of God's Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11,23-25, Romans 1:4; 1 Corinthians 15:44).

    --

    So Christians need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie (which is sometimes put forth) that Christ is not in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that Christians will not forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows that on the third day after His death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ was not resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That is why His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why He still has the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 did not stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For He will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of Christians (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they are in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when He returns, He will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

    Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus Christ proves that flesh is not evil in itself, for He has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh is not evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of Christians into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

    Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, and became trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

    And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation was not that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-4), as in a new surface for the earth, just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the New Earth, Christians will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve had not been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to Christians, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Christians will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done, had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

    So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.
     
  6. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Christians, no matter what their rapture-timing view, need to be obedient to God now if they want to spiritually endure to the end during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:13). For only obedient Christians will have their spiritual houses on the rock, as it were, so that they will endure the coming storm (Matthew 7:24-25). Disobedient Christians will have their spiritual houses on the sand, so that they will fall away during the storm (Matthew 7:26-27). They will become part of the falling away, the apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3), the departure from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), which will occur during the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Isaiah 8:21-22), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

    But what about those Christians who, even though they may be obedient in their actions now, are holding so strongly mentally to the mistaken pre-tribulation rapture idea, or to the mistaken mid-tribulation rapture idea, that they could be unprepared mentally to endure the future Tribulation in its entirety?

    As an analogy of this mental preparation, imagine that some kids were at a summer camp, and their counselor told them: "Tomorrow, there is going to be a long, hard hike". The kids walked away and started talking among themselves. One of them said: "Well, he didn't say that we all have to go on the hike, right?" And a second kid said: "And he didn't say that we all have to go the whole distance". But a third kid said: "I'm pretty sure that he meant that the hike's whole distance is for all of us. He didn't say that there is going to be a long, hard hike for only some of us, and a day of goofing off or only a short, easy hike for others of us". But the first kid answered: "Nah, we don't have to go on that hike. I'm going fishing tomorrow". And the second kid answered: "We all don't have to go the whole distance". But the third kid answered: "Don't be so sure, you two. I'm going to bed early so I'll be all fresh and ready for the whole distance of the hike".

    The next day at the morning camp meeting, the first kid brought his fishing pole and was all set for a day of fishing. But the third kid wore his sturdy hiking boots, and had a big canteen of water on his belt, and was all mentally prepared for a long day of hard hiking. The counselor then told the kids: "Okay, in a few minutes we're all going to start on the hike that I told you about, so make sure that you have everything you need". The first kid felt sick to his stomach when he heard that. He dropped his fishing pole and sat down on the ground and started crying like a baby. He just could not imagine starting on a long, hard hike after he had been all set for a day of just sitting around fishing. But he was forced to go on the whole hike anyway, and this made him and the second kid (who thought that he would not have to go the whole distance) so mad at the counselor that they grumbled against him to the other kids during the hike, cursing him out as a cruel taskmaster (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21).

    But the third kid took the whole hike in stride (cf. Revelation 14:12, Revelation 13:10), and stuck up for the counselor the whole time, even though the third kid suffered awfully from blisters on his feet (from his boots) during the hike. The counselor, even though he was at the head of the hiking line, could overhear what the kids said behind him. And after the hike was over, he made sure to reward the third kid by giving him as a gift the counselor's own fishing pole, and by making sure that the third kid was assigned day after day to only the most enviable camp duties, like getting to build and light the nightly campfire, and getting to make the evening camp announcements over the camp's PA system. But the counselor made sure to assign the first and second kids to the worst garbage-removal and latrine-cleaning duties day after day.
     
  7. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b, and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace, or a Church age, or that the age to come will not also be an age of grace, or a Church age.

    Also, the present age can include the future Tribulation (of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24) and the subsequent Millennium (of Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the New Earth (Revelation 21), as in a new surface for the earth. For the end of the present age, when all non-Christians will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), will not occur until sometime after the future Millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).
     
  8. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That's right.

    For the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52) is the trumpet which will sound after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:31).

    Note that nothing requires that the trumpet of God in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 will be blown by God Himself, instead of by an angel under God's command, just as nothing requires that the trumpet in Matthew 24:31 will be blown by an angel, instead of by God Himself. That is, the trumpet of God in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 can be the same trumpet as in Matthew 24:31. For both 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Matthew 24:31 refer to the trumpet which will sound at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53).

    Also, the trump-of-God resurrection of the Church (1 Thessalonians 4:16) at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15) is the same as the last-trump resurrection of the Church (1 Corinthians 15:52) at Jesus' Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And the trump of God/last trump is the trumpet in Matthew 24:31, at the Second Coming (Matthew 24:30), immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
     
  9. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Even though in that passage, Irenaeus (or maybe only the translator) uses the words from Matthew 24:21, Irenaeus, in the language of his original manuscript, may have actually quoted, or may have been thinking of, the differently timed, yet similar sounding, Daniel 12:1-3, which refers to the time of the resurrection of the Church into physical immortality at the post-tribulation, Second-Coming time of the defeat of the future Antichrist (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    For Irenaeus connects his quoted "tribulation" reference to the time when "the righteous" will be "crowned with incorruption", that is, resurrected or changed into incorruptible/immortal physical bodies. And no people can be called "the righteous" (cf. Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no people who have that faith are outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And the people who will be resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into incorruptible/immortal physical bodies at Jesus' future, Second Coming (when he will defeat the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast": Revelation 19:20), will be the Church of all times (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

    So in the passage from Irenaeus, the "tribulation" referred to by him could be only Daniel 11:45 to 12:3's post-tribulation, Second-Coming time of trouble which will come upon the future Antichrist and the world's armies at the Second-Coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which the Church of all times will be resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into physical immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-53), and then caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

    Regarding Amos 5:18 being quoted in Pseudo Ephraem, note that Amos 5:18-20 refers to an ancient day of the Lord, like, for example, the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. In its context, Amos 5:18-20 is addressing the ancient northern kingdom of Israel (Amos 5:1,4-6,21-27), before God brought punishment and defeat to it (Amos 2:6,14-16, Amos 3:1 to 5:27) in 722 BC, at the hands of the Assyrians, who took Israel into captivity into Assyria, "beyond Damascus" (Amos 5:27).

    Also, when the unknown writer of the document called "Pseudo Ephraem" says: "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation" (Section 2), he does not mean prior to the Tribulation of Matthew 24. For that would contradict the Biblical teaching that the elect are gathered immediately "after the tribulation" of Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31). Also, the writer of Pseudo Ephraem mistakenly thought that the first half of Matthew 24's Tribulation had already occurred by his time, and that all that was left to happen was the time of the Antichrist: "Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord [cf. Matthew 24:6-7], they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [cf. Matthew 24:15-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8]" (Section 2).

    And the writer of Pseudo Ephraem shows that the Church will have to go through the time of the Antichrist: "those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent [cf. Revelation 12:14,9,17], bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the udders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord, and while wandering in states of desertion, they eat herbs" (Section 8). There is no salvation apart from being a Christian (John 3:36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12), and there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). The writer of Pseudo Ephraem again in Section 9 shows that the Church will have to go through the time of the Antichrist: "when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so they may be found good by their Lord". No one is just or found good (Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no one who has this faith is outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    And in Section 4, the writer of Pseudo Ephraem shows that some in the Church will die during the time of the Antichrist: "In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them". So in the latter half of Section 2, when the writer of Pseudo Ephraem says: "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation", he does not mean prior to Matthew 24's Tribulation. What he means is partially found in the first half of Section 2: "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world". What the writer means by "the confusion" (and so also by "the tribulation") is explained in Section 10: "Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth".

    So the writer of Pseudo Ephraem is referring to the confusion and destruction of the future Antichrist and the world's armies by Jesus Christ Himself at the Second-Coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which the Church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17), and to be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7).

    Note that nothing in the Bible or in any early-Church writings ever teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Amen!

    Rev 20:4-6 points to "the first resurrection" and it is the event at the 2nd coming (Rev 19) that starts the 1000 year clock ticking. At the end of the 1000 years the wicked are raised.

    4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    the 1000 years are literal -

    But it is not where Christ reigns on Earth because Revelation 19 says all the wicked are killed when Christ comes again (second coming) - and John 14 says that when He comes again he takes the saints with Him - back to heaven.

    Nothing left here but a desolate Earth - as the OT prophets predicted.

    ======================
    DESOLATE Earth

    Rev 20:4-5 shows the ”First Resurrection” Which is the resurrection of the saints the “dead in Christ” as Paul says in 1Thess 4 at our “Gathering together to Him” 2Thess 2:1-4 a the “Coming of the Lord” (Both 2Thess 2 and 1Thess 4 point that out).

    Rev 19 says that the living wicked are destroyed by fire and by the sword that comes from Christ “at the coming of the Lord” – it says “The rest were killed by the sword” that comes from Christ. Vs 21

    At that time Christ raptures the church (in the singular event He promised in John 14) and we are taken to heaven both the living AND the dead (raised at the First Resurrection).

    So what about the earth? That leaves “no one” here – so does the Bible describe earth as left without humans, dead corpses from one end of earth to another?
    No one left to bury the dead? Cities all destroyed? Really?

    Millennium – a time without a single human remaining alive. Not a glorious place to live - but a place where birds feeding on rotting corpses of mankind. And yet it is temporary – only lasting for 1000 years.

    This feast of the birds we see described again in Rev 19 where the lamb destroys certain of mankind

    Ez 32:4-8
    4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
    5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
    6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
    7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
    8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

    Jer 4:23
    I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
    24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
    25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

    26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

    Jer 25:33
    ""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

    Zeph 1:18

    Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

    Isaiah 24
    1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
    2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
    3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

    It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe


    Isaiah 24
    17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
    18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
    19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
    20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  12. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    That is completely false.
    I already covered this several times .
    Scripture and the ECF absolutely did teach a pre-trib rapture .
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Not true --

    Matthew 24 "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect".
     
  14. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    No friend.
    The rapture is when the Groom (Christ) removes the Bride (The Church) before the 7 year tribulation.
    The Second Coming of Christ (when He literally sets foot on the Mount of Olives ) He brings us back.
    Yes, all the wicked (unjust) will perish.
    Therefore only the saved will enter into the 1,000 literal year reign of Christ .
    Be advised that there will be saved believers who lived through the 7 year tribulation and therefore will repopulate the Earth. Obviously only they will reproduce. Not those who were raptured prior , nor the OT saints and tribulation saints that are resurrected at His Second Coming.
    Which is not to be confused with the dead in Christ (those who are saved that have passed since the day of Pentacost till the day of the Rapture).
    Many miss understand that yes there is only one resurrection for the just , BUT at different stages.
    However there is only one resurrection for the unjust at ONE time during the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the 1,000 literal year reign of Christ.

    Pretty concise and very intense , but I think you get what I am trying to convey.
     
  15. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    That doesn't refute my position at all.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    I thought you were promoting a pre-trib gathering of the saints.. not post trib.

    "Fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the REVELATION of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 1:13
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Jesus says that happens when He "comes again" (second coming) -- John 14
    says that when He returns he takes the saints with Him - back to heaven.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    John 14 speaks of the second coming "I will come again" (2nd coming) - and does not say "to bring you back to Earth" but rather to take you from the Earth - to His Father's house.
     
  19. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    I am.
    You are getting the rapture (the removal of The Church ) confused with The Second Coming of Christ.
    These are two distinct and seperate events.
    The Rapture, the Bride (The Church) meet the Lord in the air/clouds. The Lord takes us away.
    The Second Coming of Christ He literally sets His foot upon the Mount of Olives and brings us with Him.
    Like I said , two distinct and different events .
    That is NOT promoting a post-trib at all , but rather proving a pre-trib approach to what the Scriptures teach.
    Like I said and will continue to say, the stumbling block for most people regarding this discussion is they do not understand that there is CLEARLY different stages of the resurrection for the just.
    Only one, but at different stages.
    Unlike the unjust where there is only one time that they will resurrect. Which is during The Great White Throne Judgment.
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    True as Jesus promised in John 14 "I will come again AND receive you to Myself" -- come again... second coming event where we find that "the dead in Christ rise first" 1Thess 4... at what is called the "first resurrection" Rev 20:5-6

    It is clear you are not promoting post trib - but Matthew 24 does.

    Matt 24
    3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

    Matthew 24 "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect".

    30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

    John 14 "I will come again and receive you to Myself"
     
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