Is the Rapture Deception?

[ItIsFinished!]

Jesus says that happens when He "comes again" (second coming) -- John 14
says that when He returns he takes the saints with Him - back to heaven.

Well He does come (in the clouds/air) where we meet Him, but that clearly isn't The Second Coming of Christ where He literally sets foot on the earth (the Mount of Olives)
Two SEPERATE and DISTINCT EVENTS.
This is clearly taught in the Scriptures.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

True as Jesus promised in John 14 "I will come again AND receive you to Myself" -- come again... second coming event where we find that "the dead in Christ rise first" 1Thess 4... at what is called the "first resurrection" Rev 20:5-6





It is clear you are not promoting post trib - but Matthew 24 does.

1 Thessalonians 4 and the resurrection of the dead in Christ is referring to the rapture , not the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

1 Thessalonians 4 and the resurrection of the dead in Christ is referring to the rapture , not the Second Coming of Christ.

They happen at the same time.

1 Thess 4 "the dead in Christ rise FIRST"
Rev 20:4-6 "this is the FIRST resurrection" --

Rev 20 a description of the resurrection of the dead in Christ -- who "rise first"
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Jesus says that happens when He "comes again" (second coming) -- John 14
says that when He returns he takes the saints with Him - back to heaven.

Well He does come (in the clouds/air) where we meet Him, but that clearly isn't The Second Coming of Christ where He literally sets foot on the earth (the Mount of Olives)

John 14 - Jesus does not say "I will come again and set foot on earth". Rather "I will come again and receive you...".

no text says that at the second coming Christ sets foot on Earth.

That only happens at the end of the 1000 years - when the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven. See Rev 20 and 21.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

They happen at the same time.

1 Thess 4 "the dead in Christ rise FIRST"
Rev 20:4-6 "this is the FIRST resurrection" --

Rev 20 a description of the resurrection of the dead in Christ -- who "rise first"
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

No friend, the first resurrection for the just do not all happened at the same time.
Obviously Jesus Christ is the first fruit .
Then the Jerusalem saints.
Then the dead in Christ (those in Christ which passed since the day of Pentacost till the day of the Rapture).
Then the tribulation saints and remaining OT saints.
Then the saints who die during the 1,000 year literal reign of Christ.

Only the unjust resurrect at one time during the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

[BobRyan]

No friend, the first resurrection for the just do not all happened at the same time.
Obviously Jesus Christ is the first fruit .
Then the Jerusalem saints.
Then the dead in Christ

No question that the resurrection of Christ in the Gospels and the Matthew 27 resurrection in Jerusalem happened long before John wrote anything.

But we are talking about the future events to John's readers. Future to his day... two resurrections with Rev 20 describing "the first resurrection" that happens at the 2nd coming event just being described in Rev 19

No text says "first the Jerusalem saints - then the dead in Christ" as if these are two events future to the NT writers..

in 1 Thess 4 Paul is writing in regard to a funeral service that just happened - and telling them to look forward to the second coming event where "the dead in Christ rise first".

 

[ItIsFinished!]

BobRyan said: ↑
Jesus says that happens when He "comes again" (second coming) -- John 14
says that when He returns he takes the saints with Him - back to heaven.



John 14 - Jesus does not say "I will come again and set foot on earth". Rather "I will come again and receive you...".

no text says that at the second coming Christ sets foot on Earth.

That only happens at the end of the 1000 years - when the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven. See Rev 20 and 21.

Friend I am going to provide the verse regarding The Second Coming of Christ where He literally sets foot upon the mount of Olives.

Zechariah 14:4 (KJV)
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives , which is before Jerusalem on the east , and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west , and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north , and half of it toward the south.

This my friend is The Second Coming of Christ .

 

[DennisTate]

I didn't believe in the Rapture until I read the explanation of it by a near death experiencer. Up until then I could not tell the difference between scriptures about the Rapture from ones about the Second Coming?!

He paused as though the joy of that thought had overwhelmed him for the moment.

"My Father assures me that the time is yet a little while, but very little. Soon he will call those already in paradise to surround me as we descend from this third heaven to the first heaven around the Earth. The souls of all my saints will be instantly clothed in their new resurrection bodies, as will the living saints on Earth who rise to us in the glory cloud! At the sounding trumpet they all receive new bodies and rise to meet us in the air. We return as my body to my throne room with the Father. Now do you understand why I called this place a temporary abiding place? Do you grasp what it will mean to be one with me and the Father in your incorruptible bodies? My book states that I assumed mankind's sin so you "might be made the righteousness of God' in me!"

I can clearly recall how Jesus' voice paused at this moment. He was savoring an anticipation too intense and private to be revealed. Was he pre-living that moment at which he would enjoy the victory which his Father would give him as the eternal reward for his own long-suffering? His own sting of death would be swallowed up, and he would be the omniscient Head of a completed and compliant body for whom he had shed his blood on a terrible cross. He would reign as KING of the Jews after these days of grace. Then his thoughts returned to me.

"My son, when that time has come, my Father will call to me. The applause of the heavenly hosts will be deafening; they too have been awaiting that day, ever since they announced my birth to the shepherds at Bethlehem so long ago. Scoffers will gaze with fear and wonder as my angelic hosts watch me fulfill my promise to my earthly body of believers at my soon return to Earth." (Dr. Richard Eby, near-death .com

All throughout the prophets, we have them warning God's children to hide and keep themselves shut up until the trouble passes.

Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Isa 24:1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
Isa 24:2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
Isa 24:3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
Isa 24:4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Isa 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
Isa 24:13 When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is
done.

(Basically it's saying that the world will have few people left in it, because of the great destruction God will cause to be upon the earth in the last days, because of their transgressions. Really read this entire chapter, because all of it applies to what I'm talking about, I just didn't want to link an entire chapter in here)

I feel that the idea of the rapture, is a deception given to us by the enemy, because when the world is destroyed due to our transgressions and unholiness, those believing in and waiting on the rapture will not know what's going on. They would've been expecting to be taken out before these things happen, and then their faith will fail them, because they weren't prepared to have to go through this time of trouble. We even have the words of our Savior describing that time. His children are wheat, and the devil's children are tares.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:40 Just as weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at end of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes others to sin and those who practice lawlessness
Mat 13:42 and they will throw them into a blazing furnace. In that place there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 THEN the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father's kingdom. Let the person who has ears listen!”

Mat 13:49 That is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will go out, cull out the evil people FROM AMONG the righteous ones,
Mat 13:50 and will throw them into a blazing furnace. In that place there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Here we see Jesus saying that His chosen, will still be on earth. That the unrighteous will be taken from among them. So we see that, for example, the verse where two will be in a field, one taken the other left, you want to be the one that is left. You don't want to be taken, because to be taken, means you're not a wheat. Because as Matt 13:30 says, tares will be taken first, not wheat.

 

[Bible2+]

ItIsFinished! said in post #339:

. . . the first resurrection for the just do not all happened at the same time.
Obviously Jesus Christ is the first fruit .
Then the Jerusalem saints.
Then the dead in Christ (those in Christ which passed since the day of Pentacost till the day of the Rapture).

Regarding "the Jerusalem saints", do you mean Matthew 27:52-53? If so, note that the original Greek word (egeiro: G1453) translated there as "arose" can refer to recently-dead people's bodies being resuscitated back to mortal life, like how Jesus Christ "raised (egeiro)" the recently-dead Lazarus (John 12:1), who was one of Jesus' followers (John 11:11, cf. John 15:14), back to mortal life, by crying out with a loud voice (John 11:43-44). The dead saints who were raised sometime later when they heard Jesus cry out with a loud voice on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-52, John 5:25), and who came out of their graves after Jesus' physical resurrection (Matthew 27:53), could have also been recently-dead followers of Jesus. Their bodies were resuscitated back to mortal life, like happened with Lazarus. For the resurrection of Jesus' followers into immortal physical bodies will not occur until His Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will not occur until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[Kaon]

All throughout the prophets, we have them warning God's children to hide and keep themselves shut up until the trouble passes.

Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Isa 24:1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
Isa 24:2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
Isa 24:3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
Isa 24:4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Isa 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
Isa 24:13 When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is
done.

(Basically it's saying that the world will have few people left in it, because of the great destruction God will cause to be upon the earth in the last days, because of their transgressions. Really read this entire chapter, because all of it applies to what I'm talking about, I just didn't want to link an entire chapter in here)

I feel that the idea of the rapture, is a deception given to us by the enemy, because when the world is destroyed due to our transgressions and unholiness, those believing in and waiting on the rapture will not know what's going on. They would've been expecting to be taken out before these things happen, and then their faith will fail them, because they weren't prepared to have to go through this time of trouble. We even have the words of our Savior describing that time. His children are wheat, and the devil's children are tares.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:40 Just as weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at end of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes others to sin and those who practice lawlessness
Mat 13:42 and they will throw them into a blazing furnace. In that place there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 THEN the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father's kingdom. Let the person who has ears listen!”
Mat 13:49 That is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will go out, cull out the evil people FROM AMONG the righteous ones,
Mat 13:50 and will throw them into a blazing furnace. In that place there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Here we see Jesus saying that His chosen, will still be on earth. That the unrighteous will be taken from among them. So we see that, for example, the verse where two will be in a field, one taken the other left, you want to be the one that is left. You don't want to be taken, because to be taken, means you're not a wheat. Because as Matt 13:30 says, tares will be taken first, not wheat.

Is the rapture a deception?

Yes. The Most High God has never taken His remnant/elect/wise ones away from trials and tribulation, He has always seen them through. The elect will go the tribulation - and some will be alive when He returns. We are told this several times - most notably in Daniel 11-12, which makes no statement about the wise ones being caught up and taken away. In fact, they are told to endure for 1335 days after the man of perdition has caused the abomination that causes desolation.

 

[Bible2+]

Kaon said in post #344:

. . . they are told to endure for 1335 days after the man of perdition has caused the abomination that causes desolation.

That could be right, for Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation 16:15 could mean that 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the future Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), Jesus Christ's Second Coming will occur and blessed are those Christians who will wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up; and if the seven vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1); and if the first six vials will be poured out over thirty days; then the sixth vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).

It is on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the sixth vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the Church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus Christ's Second Coming as a thief on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the world's armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' Second Coming and their total defeat (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

 

[Bible2+]

FireDragon76 said in post #183:

Luther was clear that Christ's kingdom is eternal and spiritual and he reigns in the human heart. Chiliasm denies this truth of our religion.

Presently the Kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24) and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future the Kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21), and then forever on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-8), as in a new surface for the earth.

Jesus Christ's Kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at His future, Second Coming, He will sit on the earthly throne of King David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in His humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' Second Coming, He will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12) which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And He will bring salvation to all of the still-living, non-Christian elect Jews of the house of David, for they (along with all other still-living, non-Christian elect Jews) will become Christians when they see Jesus at His Second Coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the Church at that time, for there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected Church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the Church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).