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Featured Is the Rapture Deception?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Devin P, Nov 3, 2018.

  1. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    We need to be more specific here. A rapture is definitely biblical since Paul is the only person to actually use the word rapture in scripture. He spoke of a rapture happening after the second coming and resurrection so a post-trib rapture is biblical. A mid or pre-trib rapture is not biblical.

    1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    Context is the second coming!

    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    Context is the second coming!

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    This is the second coming!


    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    This is the rapture! The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul!
     
  2. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    I disagree brother.
    A pre-trib rapture is absolutely Biblical.
    The groom (Christ) will remove the bride (the Church) before His divine judgment comes upon a lost world that has rejected Him during the 7 year tribulation.
    At the end of the great tribulation (the last 3 and a half years) He will come back with the Church at His Second Coming and He will literally set foot on the Mt. of Olives.
    The OT saints and tribulation saints resurrect during this time.
    Only the saved in Christ will enter the Millenial reign, which will include those who accepted Christ as Saviour during the 7 year tribulation and didn't die during that time.
    They will be the ones that repopulate the world during the literal 1,000 year reign of Christ .
     
  3. friend of

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    Actually Revelation 20:4 states that there will be Christian converts who will be beheaded during great tribulation who will be resurrected at the start of the millennial kingdom.
     
  4. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    Yet I proved there isn't one using scripture, the only scripture that uses the word rapture...you just told me what you believe. Scripture is what I must adhere to :)
     
  5. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that Revelation 4:1 refers only to the apostle John, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the third heaven at one point during his lifetime in the first century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers only to the apostle Paul, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the third heaven at one point during his lifetime in the first century AD. Neither verse refers to the future rapture of the Church only as high as the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus Christ at His Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Note that Enoch was not translated into heaven so that he would not have to go through the Flood (along with righteous Noah and his family in the ark: 2 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 3:20). For Enoch (Noah's great-grandfather) was translated 669 years before the Flood.

    The way that we can know this is first by knowing when Noah's flood happened:

    Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. This is based on Bible verses which make it possible to work back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built. Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the Bible shows that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel had entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob had been born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac had been born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham had been born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah had been born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor had been born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug had been born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu had been born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18). And Peleg had been born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber had been born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah had been born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad had been born two years after the Flood (Genesis 11:10).

    So all we have to do is add up the numbers of years above to see that Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. Then, to determine when Enoch was translated into heaven, we need to work further back. If Arphaxad had been born two years after the Flood, then Arphaxad had been born about 2456 BC. And Arphaxad had been born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem had been born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10, Genesis 7:6). And Noah had been born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech had been born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah had been born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21).

    Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Enoch was born about 3492 BC. He was translated when he was 365 (Genesis 5:23-24), and so he was translated about 3127 BC, which was 669 years before the Flood. Adding these 669 years to Enoch's age of 365, we find that Enoch was 1,034 years old at the time of the Flood. This means that had he stayed on the earth, he would have almost certainly died from old age before the Flood came (cf. Isaiah 57:1). For Methuselah (Noah's grandfather) was the longest-living person who stayed on the earth, and he died at the age of 969 (Genesis 5:27), the same year as the Flood. For Enoch was born about 3492 BC, and Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). So Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and he died 969 years later, which was about 2458 BC, the same year as the Flood.

    Methuselah could have died of old age right before the Flood started. God could have waited to bring the Flood until after Methuselah died of old age and was buried. Lamech (Noah's father) had already died some five years before the Flood. For Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). So Lamech was born about 3240 BC, and he died 777 years later (Genesis 5:31), which was about 2463 BC, which was five years before the Flood.

    *******

    In Matthew 24:48-51 the evil servant did evil and was surprised by the Lord's return because when the Lord did not return sometime before or during the Tribulation, the servant thought that the Lord was indefinitely "delaying" His return (Matthew 24:48). But in fact the Lord's return will not be delayed at all, but will occur "immediately after" the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Also, even when Christians know this truth, they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

    Note that in Revelation 2:22, even the original Greek does not refer to "the" great Tribulation, as in the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the seven letters to seven churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to seven, literal, first century AD local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11), which is today western Turkey.

    Similarly, the letters of the New Testament books of Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians were sent to literal, first century AD local church congregations in seven places in the Roman empire.

    And just as nothing requires that this latter set of letters addresses "seven church ages", so nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the former set does.

    Also, the entire Bible is profitable for Christians (2 Timothy 3:16). So they can learn lessons for their own lives today by reading all of these letters.

    Note that the Feast of Trumpets of Leviticus 23:24 could be antitypically fulfilled at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, when the Second-Coming trumpet will sound (Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52), after the seven trumpets of the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have sounded (Revelation 8:2).
     
  6. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that the rapture is not a popping up in the air and right back down, but rather is a catching up and a gathering together to Jesus Christ at His future, Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1). That is, the rapture will take Christians straight up into the sky wherever they are on the earth. But this will be thousands of different places in the sky (the first heaven), all around the globe. So then they will need to be gathered together by angels (Mark 13:27; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be, which will be right above Jerusalem, before He sets His feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). For example, if a Christian is raptured into the sky above New Zealand, he will then need to be led by an angel over oceans and continents until he arrives above Jerusalem.

    So this is one purpose for the rapture: to get Christians from all around the globe into one place in the sky above Jerusalem, to meet with the returned Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:17b).

    A second purpose will be so that the Church can then be judged by Jesus Christ (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the Church can then be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), in the sky, before Jesus Himself descends to wage war against the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21).

    *******

    Note that nothing requires that the 6th seal or any of the trumpets are God's wrath. See the "wrath" part of post #210 above.

    Also, note that none of the "wrath" verses in Revelation chapters 15-16 requires that the entire future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath. For Revelation chapters 15-16 refer only to the Tribulation's final stage, the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath, which could be the "last" plagues which "fill up" (complete) God's Tribulation wrath (Revelation 15:1) in relation to the earlier plagues which will be brought on the world by God's future, Two Witnesses (Revelation 11:6). Also, nothing requires that the plagues from God in Revelation 11:6 or Revelation 16 will be directed against the Christians (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth during those times (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), still waiting for Jesus Christ's Second Coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15).

    *******

    Do you mean that there will be only a partial rapture of the Church, sometime before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, of only those in the Church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing that it is pre-tribulation? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that anyone in the Church will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire Church will not be raptured (gathered together) at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which will be the time of Jesus' Second Coming, immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the need for those in the Church to be ready for the Second Coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) does not have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

    See also the "left" part of post #228 above.
     
  7. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that in Titus 2:13, Jesus Christ's glorious appearing is His future, Second Coming, when He will appear in glory (Matthew 24:30).

    Also, the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the Christian hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will not occur until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, Jesus Himself is the hope of Christians (1 Timothy 1:1b), for He Himself is eternal life (John 14:6). And only by believing in Him can people have eternal life (John 3:36).

    Also, no Christians are hoping for the future Tribulation instead of Jesus Christ's Second Coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation-rapture view know that the Tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation-rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She is not hoping for birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

    Also, we are indeed to be "looking for" Jesus Christ's future appearing (Titus 2:13), His Second Coming (Matthew 24:30). But note that the original Greek word (prosdechomai: G4327) translated as "looking for" does not mean to stare with our eyes with the hope of seeing someone come at any moment. Instead, it means "to await (with confidence or patience)" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), like in Luke 12:36, Luke 2:25, and Mark 15:43. For Jesus cannot come back at any moment (Acts 3:21). He cannot come back until at least two events happen first (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4). For His coming back to gather together (rapture) the Church must destroy the future Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8). That is why Jesus' coming back to gather together (rapture) the Church will not be until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27), and why the Church will have to go through the Tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13).

    *******

    Regarding 1 Corinthians 15:51, note that the apostle Paul did not call the rapture-coming itself a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:51. For Jesus Christ had already taught His rapture-coming in the Gospels (John 14:3b, Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1). Instead, the mystery explained in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (cf. John 11:26) is the instantaneous changing of living Christians into immortal physical bodies at the same, Second-Coming time that the bodies of dead Christians (of all times) will be resurrected from their graves into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Romans 8:23-25). It is only after this physical, Second-Coming resurrection and changing that the rapture (the physical catching up together/gathering together) of all Christians will occur (1 Thessalonians 4:16b-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3b).

    Regarding your reference to Matthew 25:10, see the "marriage" part of post #192 above.

    *******

    Note that Luke 12:36 is only a parable (for see its use of "like"). And this parable is addressed to the same people, the Church, that Luke 12:40 is addressed to. The actual wedding will not occur until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will not occur until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29 to 25:13).
     
  8. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    I agree.
    I put that in my post.
    The OT saints and tribulation saints resurrect before the Millenial reign.
     
  9. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    Yes , you provided the verse which Paul talks about the rapture, but that is when the dead in Christ (believers that passed away since the day of Pentacost) and present believers meet the Lord in the air/clouds.
    This event is not to be confused with The Second Coming of Christ in which He literally sets foot on the Mount of Olives. During that event we (Church) come back with Him.
    During the rapture Christ doesn't come to earth.
    The Second Coming of Christ, He does.
     
  10. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    Actually all saints that had died will resurrect. When they died is of no consequence.
     
  11. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    It's the same exact time period. The dead resurrect and follow him as he descends to the Earth, then the living saints will change into immortals and be caught up to meet Christ and the others and all will continue to follow Christ as he arrives on the Earth.

    Pre-trib creates a third coming and calls it the second coming. He only comes back one time and that's when the rapture occurs.

    Yes he does. Meeting the raptured in the clouds of the Earth is a small moment of the entire coming down to the Earth event. He doesn't leave heaven twice. And once again, Paul himself wrote 2nd Thess. To fight against the idea that Christ could return at any moment before the trib and the revealing of the man of sin occur.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


    Do not be confused about the return of Christ or OUR gathering to Him (the rapture), that it can happen at any moment because it will NOT happen at any moment. Paul is speaking about the Church and when Christ comes for her.

    The doctrine of the pre-trib rapture states that Christ can secretly return at "any moment" yet Paul is clear to rebuke that doctrine saying not to believe anyone who claims that.


    "nor by letter as from us"

    Paul mentions even a former letter of his, because of a confusing statement he made concerning Christs return, the very verses that today's pre-tribbers use errantly:



    1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.



    Paul said it was misunderstood then, and it is still being misunderstood to this very day. Pauls second letter to the Thessalonians was meant to clear up any confusion which apparently was not successful.




    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    Don't let anyone, even a fellow Christian deceive you otherwise! Christ's return SHALL NOT COME until the Apostasy happens FIRST. The Apostasy is when Christians stop worshipping Christ and start worshipping the antichrist. Christ will not return until that terrible thing happens, and not until the man of sin is revealed.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Jesus does not promise "The big bounce" rather in John 14:1-3 Jesus said He will "come again" = second coming, and the purpose is to receive the saints to Himself -- to take them to the place He has prepared for them in heaven - in His Father's house. So no "big bounce" at the 2nd coming rapture event.

    John 14
    Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    Jesus will rapture all the saints - both the living and the dead when He "comes again" - = the second coming rapture event that takes all the saints to heaven... to His Father's house. the Place WHERE He will take us - the place WHERE He has gone now.
     
  13. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    Yes they all will resurrect , except not at the same time.
    Different stages.
    When they die does affect when they will resurrect.
     
  14. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    Pre-trib does not create anything muchless a third coming back.
    Coming back consist of Christ literally present on the earth.
    The rapture doesn't fit the criteria.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Not in the Bible.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Not true at all.

    Pretrib rapture has Christ "coming back" to get the saints and rapture them to heaven "I will come AGAIN" and receive you to Myself (= second coming). This is where the 1 Thess 4 resurrection takes place.

    Then at the Rev 19 second coming - pre-trib has Christ "coming again" where in Rev 20 we find that the "first resurrection takes place" "again" .

    So then two "second comings".
    And two" "first resurrections

    In that pre-trib model.
     
  17. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    Scripture does not confirm this view. There is one time of resurrection for the righteous, and one time for the unrighteous.
     
  18. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    Of course it does...he is returning to the Earth. And pre-trib has Jesus coming from heaven to the Earth two times when scripture has only one time. Coming to the clouds of Earth is still leaving heaven and coming to the Earth. Where pre-trib errs is thinking he returns to heaven which is not written in any verse.

    1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    Context is the second coming! Pretrib says this is not the second coming yet why bring the resurrected dead saints to the clouds of Earth then go back to heaven?

    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    Context is the second coming! Who is prepared to deny this is the second coming??


    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    This is the second coming!


    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Obviously the context in all these verse is the second coming.
     
  19. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    Nope.
    One rapture , which isn't the Second Coming of Christ .
    And, as I have stated a gazillion times , there are stages to the resurrection of the just.
    That is why this is such a controversial topic.
    Individuals misunderstand the rapture and Second Coming as well as the resurrection of the saints.
     
  20. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    There is no other Second Coming of Christ obviously .
    The rapture is not the Second Coming of Christ.
    They are two seperate and DISTINCT events.
     
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