Is the rapture a lie?

[redleghunter]

Starting with Paul and going on through Tim LaHaye and Marvin Knox - there have been many who have believed that the rapture is immanent and does not follow the well articulated events associated with Daniel's 70th week and John's revelation (which was given to him to show the church what must take place sometime after the end of the first century A.D. when the vision was given to John).

Yes, the imminent return was on the mind of the early church as we see in Didache 16:

Chapter 16. Watchfulness; The Coming of the Lord
Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. Matthew 24:42 But often shall you come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; Matthew 24:11-12 for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, Matthew 24:10 and then shall appear the world-deceiver as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.
CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache​

 

[BobRyan]

I see it a lot being written and been told it. I want to know why people believe it is false.

I consider it my only hope each day. ....

The rapture is not a lie - but it happens like the Bible says - not like many man-made-fictions state.

1 Thess 4 at the 2nd coming there is the rapture of both the dead saints and the living saints... taken to heaven.

Matthew 24 "immediately after the tribulation of those days.. he will send forth His angels to gather His elect"

2 Thess 2 - that event of the 2nd coming "will not come until after the great apostasy.." and until after the antichrist event where Satan appears as if he is Christ at the 2nd coming.

 

[expos4ever]

I see no evidence of believers being taken to heaven. The concept of “meeting a Lord in the air” is misunderstood by rapture advocates- in that culture, this concept referred to people leaving the city walls to meet a returning King in the open air outside the city. And, as has been shown, “coming on the clouds” is an upward ascent, not a descent to scoop up believers.

 

[redleghunter]

I have never denied that Jesus will return.

I have simply demonstrated that texts that use the phrase "coming on the clouds" almost certainly do not refer to a returning Jesus.

Revelation 1:7

Matthew 24:30

1 Thessalonians 4:17

And Acts 1:9-11

If not the Second Coming what is this?

 

[redleghunter]

>Posts on debate board
>Doesn't want debate
>Calls others unstudied and unchristian
>Doesn't expect anyone to respond asking him to back it up

Mayybbee you're on the wrong side of town stranger.

Actually we are on the discussion forum. The staff here closed the debate forum due to inactivity and folks spamming it without reading the rules. Too bad because this format does not afford a one on one debate with expanded space (additional character limits) to really get to the meat. Notice we have several conversations ongoing and someone (like me here) jumps in.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Not certain why people insist on a 3rd coming of Christ when most know perfectly well there is a second coming, it is descried below, and that's all there is to it.

Of course there is other scripture in that area and I guess that explains a few things, as in:

Mather 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

It just amazes me how they can deceive anyone with their man made views when it is so clearly written:

Mathew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Doesn't the Apostle tell us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? The saints and martyrs are with the Lord, depicted in the Apocalypse as before God's throne. At the coming of the Lord the souls of the righteous are reunited with their bodies in the resurrection.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes, Revelation 20:4 does describe the "souls" of the righteous martyrs... where does it say that they are reunited with their bodies?

Resurrection is unto "spiritual bodies" (1 Corinthians 15:44).

 

[Erik Nelson]

Not certain why people insist on a 3rd coming of Christ when most know perfectly well there is a second coming, it is descried below, and that's all there is to it.

Of course there is other scripture in that area and I guess that explains a few things, as in:

Mather 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

It just amazes me how they can deceive anyone with their man made views when it is so clearly written:

Mathew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Judaism is expecting its 1st (legitimate) Messiah. Many Christians are expecting the 2nd Coming. Many Muslims are expecting the Mahdi. Are the stars aligning?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes, Revelation 20:4 does describe the "souls" of the righteous martyrs... where does it say that they are reunited with their bodies?

Resurrection is unto "spiritual bodies" (1 Corinthians 15:44).

The Apostle contrasts the present body with the future body by calling the present body soma psuchekos, "soulish body", and the body in the resurrection soma pneumatikos, "spiritual body". The distinction isn't in matter. Obviously the present body isn't made of something called "soul". Likewise, read the entirety of the 15th chapter, as well as elsewhere in Scripture, notably Romans 8:11 and Philippians 3:21.

What rises is this body of flesh and bone, same as Christ. The body is transformed, transfigured, from mortal to immortal, corruptible to incorruptible, from the present humiliation of our mortal, corruptible, and sinful existence to the glory that Christ Himself has in the body.

If the body does not rise, then Christianity is a false religion.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The Apostle contrasts the present body with the future body by calling the present body soma psuchekos, "soulish body", and the body in the resurrection soma pneumatikos, "spiritual body". The distinction isn't in matter. Obviously the present body isn't made of something called "soul". Likewise, read the entirety of the 15th chapter, as well as elsewhere in Scripture, notably Romans 8:11 and Philippians 3:21.

What rises is this body of flesh and bone, same as Christ. The body is transformed, transfigured, from mortal to immortal, corruptible to incorruptible, from the present humiliation of our mortal, corruptible, and sinful existence to the glory that Christ Himself has in the body.

If the body does not rise, then Christianity is a false religion.

-CryptoLutheran

nm

 

[mkgal1]

Not certain why people insist on a 3rd coming of Christ when most know perfectly well there is a second coming, it is descried below, and that's all there is to it.

Can you point out a post that's suggesting that? Because I must have missed it (or them).

What HAS been posted (that I've seen and posted myself) is that the "coming of the Son of Man" isn't His second coming.....it's the advent of His Kingdom on earth (through a nexus of events like His ascension, Pentecost, and the destruction of Jerusalem/Temple). Those of us with this belief aren't waiting for His Kingdom.....it's already here amongst the chaos.

 

[Dale]

Can you point out a post that's suggesting that? Because I must have missed it (or them).

What HAS been posted (that I've seen and posted myself) is that the "coming of the Son of Man" isn't His second coming.....it's the advent of His Kingdom on earth (through a nexus of events like His ascension, Pentecost, and the destruction of Jerusalem/Temple). Those of us with this belief aren't waiting for His Kingdom.....it's already here amongst the chaos.

To get a "Left Behind" style Rapture, you have to separate the Second Coming into two Comings. The Second Coming has to split into a private, secret, coming, where Christ semi-returns and flies over, but does not touch down, and scoops up Christians. Then later (seven years later according to some), Christ returns for a public Second Coming. So you have two Second Comings, one for Christians only, and one for everyone. I have discussed this with local Rapturists where I live, and they tell me plainly that the Second Coming must be split into Part I and Part II.

In my view this sleight of hand is only necessary because there is no Rapture, separate from the Second Coming, in the Bible. That's why Christ's coming in glory is not a Third Coming.

 

[Dale]

Here is a verse which disproves a rapture (separate from the Second Coming).

Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsemane:

15 I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one.[a]
John 17:15 Or from evil
--John 17:15 RSV

15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
--John 17:15 NIV

Jesus does NOT ask God the Father to take Christians out of this world.
Instead, He requests God the Father to protect Christians from the wiles of the Devil.

 

[redleghunter]

To get a "Left Behind" style Rapture, you have to separate the Second Coming into two Comings. The Second Coming has to split into a private, secret, coming, where Christ semi-returns and flies over, but does not touch down, and scoops up Christians. Then later (seven years later according to some), Christ returns for a public Second Coming. So you have two Second Comings, one for Christians only, and one for everyone. I have discussed this with local Rapturists where I live, and they tell me plainly that the Second Coming must be split into Part I and Part II.

In my view this sleight of hand is only necessary because there is no Rapture, separate from the Second Coming, in the Bible. That's why Christ's coming in glory is not a Third Coming.

If we look at Acts the Second Coming involves coming back the way Jesus ascended. So His feet will touch the Mount of Olives.

 

[mkgal1]

To get a "Left Behind" style Rapture, you have to separate the Second Coming into two Comings. The Second Coming has to split into a private, secret, coming, where Christ semi-returns and flies over, but does not touch down, and scoops up Christians. Then later (seven years later according to some), Christ returns for a public Second Coming. So you have two Second Comings, one for Christians only, and one for everyone. I have discussed this with local Rapturists where I live, and they tell me plainly that the Second Coming must be split into Part I and Part II.

In my view this sleight of hand is only necessary because there is no Rapture, separate from the Second Coming, in the Bible. That's why Christ's coming in glory is not a Third Coming.

Oh! I see now....thank you. I agree with you about the slight of hand....and that there is no rapture (just a Second Coming).

 

[expos4ever]

Revelation 1:7

Look, he is coming with the clouds, and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.

There is every reason to think this is a reference to Jesus winning his great victory on the cross.

Again: The phrase "coming on the clouds" is a clear allusion to the use of this same phrase in Daniel 7, a text that was exceedingly well known to Jews of the day. And that text describes "coming on the clouds" as the ascent of the Son of Man up into heaven to be enthroned.

This is devastating to the argument that "coming on the clouds" denotes Jesus' return to earth. If that were so, the author of Revelation would be deliberately abusing the clear meaning that every Jew of the 1st century would know to be a reference to an upward ascent to enthronement on high.

Not a downward descent to earth below.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Judaism is expecting its 1st (legitimate) Messiah. Many Christians are expecting the 2nd Coming. Many Muslims are expecting the Mahdi. Are the stars aligning?

Or is something misaligned?

 

[redleghunter]

There is every reason to think this is a reference to Jesus winning his great victory on the cross

Why?

Again: The phrase "coming on the clouds" is a clear allusion to the use of this same phrase in Daniel 7, a text that was exceedingly well known to Jews of the day. And that text describes "coming on the clouds" as the ascent of the Son of Man up into heaven to be enthroned.

Daniel 7 is correct. Yet Revelation was written well after the ascension of Christ in 33 AD.

Revelation 1: NASB
4John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— 6and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

This is devastating to the argument that "coming on the clouds" denotes Jesus' return to earth. If that were so, the author of Revelation would be deliberately abusing the clear meaning that every Jew of the 1st century would know to be a reference to an upward ascent to enthronement on high.

Not seeing where you are going with this. Jesus ascended into Heaven in AD 33. Only His disciples witnessed it according to Acts 1. As pointed out above Revelation 1:7 it is a time future to the ascension of Christ.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Can you point out a post that's suggesting that? Because I must have missed it (or them).

What HAS been posted (that I've seen and posted myself) is that the "coming of the Son of Man" isn't His second coming.....it's the advent of His Kingdom on earth (through a nexus of events like His ascension, Pentecost, and the destruction of Jerusalem/Temple). Those of us with this belief aren't waiting for His Kingdom.....it's already here amongst the chaos.

Judging from your post, you know exactly what I mean. The idea that is presented here suggests it..

We simply disagree, on that and I doubt that's the first time that's happened to you here on any given subject, I know it isn't for me, so not a big deal.

 

[expos4ever]

Why?

I thought I had already offered an explanation.

It cannot be emphasized enough - historians tell us that Daniel 7 was exceedingly well-known to Jews of the first century. Daniel 7 refers to the enthronement of a Son of Man character who comes up to heaven "on the clouds" to be enthroned as King over the whole World.

I do not have the time to provide the details now, but I suggest it is Biblically quite clear that this enthronement has already happened - with the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.

Again: to take "coming on the clouds" as a downward descent from heaven to Earth totally abuses Daniel 7! Again, no time to make the case in detail but when a New Testament author quotes from the Old Testament - and the thing about "coming on the clouds" is clearly a quote from Daniel 7 as any Bible will indicate through a cross-reference - they are not fooling around: they intend the reader to understand that the Old Testament account being referenced is now being fulfilled.