Is the rapture a lie?

[seventysevens]

>Posts on debate board

What does it take for you to grow up and stop pestering me ?
Now you are being childish - asking you to stop pestering me does not seem to work ,

 

[redleghunter]

I have read the entire Bible from beginning to end in three different translations. There is no "rapture" in the Bible. There is no reason to separate the Second Coming into a private or secret coming for Christians and a public coming later.

Not seeing your point. We have Americans who read the US Constitution several times but act as if there isn't a first or second amendment.

 

[☦Marius☦]

What does it take for you to grow up and stop pestering me ?
Now you are being childish - asking you to stop pestering me does not seem to work ,

You mean when I said I was no longer going to reply, and you responded by calling me a bunch of names? If you don't want a reply, then stop replying!

 

[expos4ever]

Point well taken in the Spirit it was given.

I won't argue with you about it except to say that the Lord said, "“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Thanks for your charitable comments.

About this language of cosmic catastrophe: Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on in context? This is metaphor - Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of use of “end of the world” imagery to describe much more “mundane” events within the present space-time manifold.

The point, of course, is that the fact that the sun has not been literally darkened, or that stars have not literally fallen from the sky, is not reason to assume that the events described in the passage you have cited have not come to pass.

I used to hold the standard futurist position; against my will, I was forced by the weight of Biblical and other arguments to abandon it.

 

[seventysevens]

You mean when I said I was no longer going to reply, and you responded by calling me a bunch of names? If you don't want a reply, then stop replying!

never called you names , but I could follow what Jesus said to the Pharisees you continue to be untruthful you must be younger than a teenager - please stop responding to me

 

[Marvin Knox]

Thanks for your charitable comments...................... I used to hold the standard futurist position; against my will, I was forced by the weight of Biblical and other arguments to abandon it.

It will be interesting to see if we'll get a little time to compare notes and histories of what we believed and taught concerning various doctrines when we get to the other side and see who was right and who was wrong.

It would be fun (at least from my viewpoint) to be able to rib each other a bit for a time with some good natured "I told you so"' barbs.

Of course I'm talking only about intramural good natured arguments we have here in this life and not those that might effect our salvation or that of others we are preaching to in this life.

I don't expect to see some of the folks on the other side with whom I've had some disagreements here in the forum. Reason being that their message has been one which infringed on the concept of salvation by grace alone.

But with some I can't wait to tell them I told you so.

Of course they can't wait to tell me the same thing.

 

[☦Marius☦]

You too lazy to read this thread

even though you know nothing

you have no initiative , being lazy

you have little to no knowledge of bible prophecy yet you want to debate it

that shows your failure to do due diligence on your part - it has been proven many many times that people who come across as you do have no knowledge but pretend that you do

you operate on a blind faith that is blinding you

but you too lazy to read and learn

you are being childish -

you continue to be untruthful you must be younger than a teenager

....

never called you names

Lord have mercy

 

[seventysevens]

Lord have mercy

Lord have mercy , in all that you still continued to pester me - , you just do not seem to have a connected neural network to understand the most entry level basic common sense to understand when someone tells you to stop pestering you insist on doing it anyway , then you cry and whine - if you would have stopped none of it would of happened - you have only yourself to blame - I will just have to ignore you now as you don't have the decency to stop bothering people when you are asked to stop

 

[redleghunter]

I could ask you to prove to me that the early church didn't believe that the anti Christ will be a drag queen.

Well the way things are going today....

 

[Bobber]

So I quoted the usual bread and butter rapturist proof texts, such as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. But they went further, they asked me to go read Scripture myself and to show them where it says that Jesus will return prior to "the tribulation" and take all Christians out of the world into heaven.

So I looked.

And I looked.

And nothing. It wasn't there. No where in Scripture.

I'd kindly suggest they got you started off at home base with a false understanding of what "tribulation" or as you put it "the tribulation" is. Is tribulation synonymous as the statement "wrath of God"? I'd say NOT. Close to 40 years ago I had a passion to want to know about these things. I did a lot of praying a I believe the Lord showed me what today is known as the Pre-Wrath belief. This was 10 years prior to Marvin Rosenthal's book, "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church"

That's not to say that I'm giving a boast of having uniquely found something myself for a year or so after I came to my conclusion I discovered an old missionary book that outlined the same thing. Well it goes like this. Sadly in seeking to understand the concept of God's wrath or tribulation people have made a great assumption that really they had no justifiable right to make and that is the Daniel 70th week thing was a 7 year period AND then they got out their label stickers and slapped this down calling it The Great Tribulation period.

No offense but thus the problem of the poster above's quest. You're looking for Christians to be taken out of the earth before tribulation. Well that takes you right down the road of Matt 24 which says of course, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days....sun turned to darkness, moon to blood and then Jesus returns. So you see it says AFTER the tribulation or after that 7 year period but HOLD IT...STOP! If you're looking for rapture before tribulation as the poster above stated most certainly you're not going to find it. If you look for rapture BEFORE wrath however you will!

Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 totally lines up but it speaks clearly I believe that tribulation is not that which comes from God BUT....from Satan seeking to destroy the church. If tribulation persecution were acts of God then God would be fighting against his own people! Are the seal things being opened FROM GOD in Rev 6 punishment that is from him? No. The seals are merely revealings of what is taking place on the earth....BEFORE that is RIGHT BEFORE the wrath of God is released. The wrath of God is everything basically AFTER Revelation 6 and you see yes the rapture in the first few verses of Revelation 7. Let's focus our look,

Revelation 6: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (this can't be the wrath of God. If so it'd be God fighthing against his own church and the mission he gave them to do. Jesus said a Kingdom divided against itself cannot stand! Yes this is tribulation BUT it comes from Satan) 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; (lines up with Matt 24 exactly) 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.(now something MEGA is going to take place )14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:17 For the great day of his wrath is come and who shall be able to stand? Revelaton 6 (notice what it says...for the great day of his wrath IS COME....if language means anything that means NOW. That seems to imply everything prior to that in Rev 6 anything of the wrath of God has not as yet came. Notice too it states they want to hide for they're afraid to see the face of him, that is Jesus or God when he comes to rapture the church...and then look at the passage of Revelation 7:

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7

One can see John even asked who are these great people and the answer was these are they who CAME OUT of great tribulation...he doesn't talk here of a seven year anything but just intense, great tribulation. From Revelation 8 and onward is where wrath, God's wrath begins to be released. The saints have been taken to heaven FOR he has not appointed them to receive his wrath. Some put forth you don't see the word rapture in the scripture or the leaving of saints from the Earth before the wrath of God....but NO...It clearly says here all these people....CAME OUT! Came out where? Came out of the Earth. I'd contend that's the rapture.

 

[Randy777]

Frankly I was just pointing out Revelation 20 says two resurrections separated by 1000 years.

Yes it does and I hold to that timeline.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes but begs the question how they got there in the first place.

Doesn't the Apostle tell us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? The saints and martyrs are with the Lord, depicted in the Apocalypse as before God's throne. At the coming of the Lord the souls of the righteous are reunited with their bodies in the resurrection.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[redleghunter]

well, without taking sides, some are skeptical of "innovations", as if those living closer to the actual events and writings of the Scriptures knew less about them...

This is true. As it is true the very early church did not have the complete NT right before their eyes. The early views of the events leading up to the Second Coming of Christ would come directly by word and epistle from apostles and some cases later bishops/elders teaching from the apostles.

 

[redleghunter]

That is a separate issue. The Tribulation is NOT for the Church, and here's the reason why: For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess 5:9).

The Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are both expressions of God's wrath against the unbelieving, ungodly and the wicked. The Church -- the children of God -- are not subject to wrath. There will be Tribulation Saints (subsequent to the Rapture of the Church) who will be persecuted and martyred.

I thought the pertinent passage comes from the letter to the church at Philadelphia:

Revelation 3: NASB

7“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:

8‘I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9‘Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. 10‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11‘I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12‘He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. 13‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

 

[redleghunter]

Doesn't the Apostle tell us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? The saints and martyrs are with the Lord, depicted in the Apocalypse as before God's throne. At the coming of the Lord the souls of the righteous are reunited with their bodies in the resurrection.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes 100% agree when we are absent from these perishing bodies we are present with the Lord. In fact, I opine on this in detail to posters who believe we don't have souls which leave the grave. You might be interested:

Eastern VS Western Thinking

I think the distinction is do we feast with the Lord as one Body in the Heavens as souls or in our immortal glorified bodies? Meaning only those who are departed are there, what of those who are still alive and remain?

Just something to consider.

 

[redleghunter]

The writings of Josephus can help you out with that, I believe.

Chronology of the War According to Josephus: Part 7, The Fall of Jerusalem

Still not seeing it. I'm a military historian by occupational hazard. These accounts are standard for Roman razing of rebellious cities within and without the empire.

Catapults hurling huge stones does not make heavenly bodies stop giving their light.

Unless of course we consider Josephus a prophet.

Notice the early church does not refer to 70AD as a time of cataclysmic events or signs and wonders.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes 100% agree when we are absent from these perishing bodies we are present with the Lord. In fact, I opine on this in detail to posters who believe we don't have souls which leave the grave. You might be interested:

Eastern VS Western Thinking

I think the distinction is do we feast with the Lord as one Body in the Heavens as souls or in our immortal glorified bodies? Meaning only those who are departed are there, what of those who are still alive and remain?

Just something to consider.

I think it refers to fullness which we receive at Christ's coming, in the Age to Come. We all share in it when the Lord returns and God makes all things new. The relevant text in the Apocalypse describes the feast as "has come" and the holy saints and martyrs are given white robes, as are those in the resurrection--at Christ's Parousia, at the resurrection, the saints are glorified and share in the Feast to Come. In some sense asking whether this is "in heaven" or "on earth" becomes meaningless as, in some sense as we behold the marriage of heaven and earth in the vision of the New Jerusalem. While I interpret the New Jerusalem to be describing the People of God (it's described as the Bride of the Lamb, and the symbolism associated with it, the 12 gates and 12 foundations, etc) there is some sense that here heaven and earth come together. God has come to dwell with His people, and we with God, forever, in the renewal and newness of all creation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[redleghunter]

In some sense asking whether this is "in heaven" or "on earth" becomes meaningless as, in some sense as we behold the marriage of heaven and earth in the vision of the New Jerusalem. While I interpret the New Jerusalem to be describing the People of God (it's described as the Bride of the Lamb, and the symbolism associated with it, the 12 gates and 12 foundations, etc) there is some sense that here heaven and earth come together. God has come to dwell with His people, and we with God, forever, in the renewal and newness of all creation.

If Revelation 19 is showing events then those robed accompany The Lord and Heavenly hosts to the Second Coming and Judgment of the nations.

 

[Kenny'sID]

One of the things I have problems with is those who demand "show me an exact single line scripture which states such and such in no uncertain terms".

Here is where you erred. I asked for scripture, and first, asking is not demanding, that is your attempt to make me look unreasonable when there was simply nothing there but a question.

Secondly, the question was sill a very viable and reasonable one, yet instead of trying to explain why you could not do that, you went directly into an angry attitude. And BTW, the Bible often states things in no uncertain terms, yet you still act as if it's an overall silly expectation. Personally, I think for some reason I unknowingly hit a nerve, but not sure what that's all about, past experiences? who knows?

Now don't get me wrong, this type stuff happens all the time and I'm not bothered in the least, but since you still seem to be placing blame, when in reality there was no demand and there was no unreasonable request made at all, I thought I should mention that.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Here is where you erred. I asked for scripture, and first, asking is not demanding, that is your attempt to make me look unreasonable when there was simply nothing there but a question.

Secondly, the question was sill a very viable and reasonable one, yet instead of trying to explain why you could not do that, you went directly into an angry attitude. And BTW, the Bible often states things in no uncertain terms, yet you still act as if it's an overall silly expectation. Personally, I think for some reason I unknowingly hit a nerve, but not sure what that's all about, past experiences? who knows?

Now don't get me wrong, this type stuff happens all the time and I'm not bothered in the least, but since you still seem to be placing blame, when in reality there was no demand and there was no unreasonable request made at all, I thought I should mention that.

Fair enough.

But I felt (and still honestly still do) that you knew full well the many ways that I could use to try to prove my beliefs. I'm quite sure that a theologically educated person like yourself has read and discussed all of them.

I wasn't going to write a book for you on the subject on this thread when you know my answers already. They are the same as you have read a dozen times already.

My very first post on this thread stated that I was not interested in arguing the case for my side. My intent was to say that those who reject the rapture concept as we have been describing it likely had other things they rejected such as the Millennial reign of Christ and the end time tribulation period.

That charge has proven to be true here on this thread several times now.

I also stated early on that one error seemed to always be accompanied by other errors - some quite deep.

I won't argue the Trinity with you here - but I believe that charge has been born out by you in particular here.

I realize that no one's salvation is based on their exact understanding of the Trinity.

I don't know your soteriological theology and I don't care to know even now. I suspect that I would have differences with you there also. But I don't want to go there now.

If you aren't too far off the mark - I'll likely see you on the other side and share a plate of manna and a cup of juice with you.

However - if your theology is way off base concerning salvation as it is in other areas - I may not see you.

Here's hoping you make the grade.