Is the rapture a lie?

[redleghunter]

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." Matthew 24:29-30
When did this happen?

Good point. Which means within the text of Matthew 24 what Jesus speaks of must have meaning for the current generation and the one before His Glorious return.

What I find striking is that even after His resurrection and spending 40 days with the apostles they still ask the following:

Acts 1: NASB
1The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen. 3To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God. 4Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me;5for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

6So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

 

[Kenny'sID]

I said that IF you really wanted to know this you would not be waiting on me to tell you, a person who truly wants the truth will seek it out instead of waiting for a person on the forum to tell them - it shows you have no initiative , being lazy and expecting someone else to do you for what you can do for yourself -

Sorry, but I just can't help myself. If you told me God wore a tutu to anything other than a white robe affair, and I asked you for proof, would you then say I was lazy for not seeking that fact out for myself when the real reason is there is nothing to seek because it isn't true, and the "laziness" factor was absolutely made up in order to demean?

"Weak" is what was expected and weak/illogical is what we get. And not only that, your post was full of invalid attacks, just lake before.

Classic stuff like this always speaks for itself.

 

[redleghunter]

From a Preterist perspective, all of the Apocalyptic allusions to Isaiah and Joel symbolized the Judgement of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and the Second Parousia references to the ultimate victory of Christianity in the 4th-5th centuries AD.

The issue with the preterist view is the apocalyptic prophecies of Joel, Isaiah and others show a deliverance of Israel and Jerusalem and not a judgement or punishment.

Same goes for Revelation 19 where we see the nations coming to conquer are destroyed and not victorious like Rome was in 70 AD.

 

[seventysevens]

If I'm lazy for not wanting to search the entire writings of Paul for one verse, then wouldn't that make you even more lazy for not being willing to type this verse you already claim to know, to help a brother out?

You too lazy to read this thread - proof right there
Being lazy is a sin and there really is no reason to do for you that which you refuse to do for yourself

Harpazo is the original Greek word in scripture which was translated into Latin as raperium , rapiemur . rapio and then translated into English as rapture , they all mean the same thing referring to the sudden unexpected snatching away, catching away ,caught away suddenly by force and taken to another location
St. Jerome translated the Geek verb harpazo that Paul uses in 1 Thess 4:17 into the latin verb rapiemur back in in early church when he translated the Latin Vulagate and later on that Latin verb was translated into the English as “caught up” or “caught away” The Protestants back in the early 18th century coined the term rapture from the Latin verb rapiemur

1 Thess 4:17 ” Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”
In verse 18 we are to take comfort with the words he is teaching

Book of Acts 8:34-40
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing

The story of Phillip baptism of the eunuch , read all verses 34-40 and notice that the words “caught away” in verse 39 are in the Greek writing of Acts 8:39 is Harpazo – identically exactly the very same word used in Thessalonians where Paul speaks of the rapture of the whole church.
in a split second as they come up out of the water Phillip is raptured -caught away -harpazo and taken to a city 30 miles away in a mere split second of time.
God snatched Phillip and placed him in a city 30 miles away .

Strong’s Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad’-zo)
Definition: I seize, snatch,

HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

PROOF That the rapture is NOT silent , NOT unseen but still this false notion that it is silent and unseen promoted by some fictions movie and books is what some people prefer to believe
Why not believe GODS WORD ? some people refuse to accept the literal Word of harpzo and focus on gather because that is what they have been told to do

I Thess 4:17 epeita hemeis oi zontes hoi perileipomenoi hama sun autois harpagesometha [suddenly caught up] en nephelais eis apantesin tou kuriou eis aera kai houtos pantote sun kurio esometha

I Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up [harpagesometha] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

-
Harpazo is the method that the LORD uses to take people to another location with HIS power

 

[☦Marius☦]

You too lazy to read this thread - proof right there

Harpazo is the original Greek word in scripture which was translated into Latin as raperium , rapiemur . rapio and then translated into English as rapture , they all mean the same thing referring to the sudden unexpected snatching away, catching away ,caught away suddenly by force and taken to another location
St. Jerome translated the Geek verb harpazo that Paul uses in 1 Thess 4:17 into the latin verb rapiemur back in in early church when he translated the Latin Vulagate and later on that Latin verb was translated into the English as “caught up” or “caught away” The Protestants back in the early 18th century coined the term rapture from the Latin verb rapiemur

1 Thess 4:17 ” Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”
In verse 18 we are to take comfort with the words he is teaching

Book of Acts 8:34-40
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing

The story of Phillip baptism of the eunuch , read all verses 34-40 and notice that the words “caught away” in verse 39 are in the Greek writing of Acts 8:39 is Harpazo – identically exactly the very same word used in Thessalonians where Paul speaks of the rapture of the whole church.
in a split second as they come up out of the water Phillip is raptured -caught away -harpazo and taken to a city 30 miles away in a mere split second of time.
God snatched Phillip and placed him in a city 30 miles away .

Strong’s Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad’-zo)
Definition: I seize, snatch,

HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

PROOF That the rapture is NOT silent , NOT unseen but still this false notion that it is silent and unseen promoted by some fictions movie and books is what some people prefer to believe
Why not believe GODS WORD ? some people refuse to accept the literal Word of harpzo and focus on gather because that is what they have been told to do

I Thess 4:17 epeita hemeis oi zontes hoi perileipomenoi hama sun autois harpagesometha [suddenly caught up] en nephelais eis apantesin tou kuriou eis aera kai houtos pantote sun kurio esometha

I Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up [harpagesometha] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

That is just what Paul taught at one time -
Harpazo is the method that the LORD uses to take people to another location with HIS power

Thank you for finally answering that!

However I'd say that verse in Thessalonians implies a post Tribulation Rapture, and not a pre trib.

See? Wasn't so hard now was it

 

[Kenny'sID]

You too lazy to read this thread - proof right there
Being lazy is a sin and there really is no reason to do for you that which you refuse to do for yourself

Clearly you have run out of straws to clutch when it comes to shifting blame.

 

[seventysevens]

Thank you for finally answering that!

However I'd say that verse in Thessalonians implies a post Tribulation Rapture, and not a pre trib.

See? Wasn't so hard now was it

So you were not telling the truth when you said Paid did not talk of a rapture - but now you say that you think it is a post trib rapture -
in a split second you go from insisting that Paul never talked about it -to saying that you believe it happens post trib
You have been Exposed !

Jesus himself said it will be before the Great Trib - obviously you do not really know or understand Who causes the GT or why - which is why Jesus and other verses tell us the rapture will happen before the Great trib bergins
there is a whole lot more scriptures that show it is indeed a pre trib rapture , But since you chose to be untruthful I will not waste any more time with you - you can believe whatever you wish

 

[☦Marius☦]

So you were not telling the truth when you said Paid did not talk of a rapture - but now you say that you think it is a post trib rapture -
in a split second you go from insisting that Paul never talked about it -to saying that you believe it happens post trib
You have been Exposed !

there is a whole lot more scriptures that show it is indeed a pre trib rapture , But since you chose to be untruthful I will not waste any more time with you - you can believe whatever you wish

It's not lying to say that you don't believe there is evidence for something. Which is why I was asking for your evidence.

However the Rapture in the sense of the OP is not what Paul is talking about if it is truly a post Tribulation Rapture.

 

[seventysevens]

It's not lying to say that you don't believe there is evidence for something. Which is why I was asking for your evidence.

However the Rapture in the sense of the OP is not what Paul is talking about if it is truly a post Tribulation Rapture.

Paul never said anything about a post trib rapture - it happens BEFORE the Great Trib begins - it is incorrect to say it does not happen pre trib - you said REPEATEDLY Paul never spoke about a rapture at all - no timing was being discussed - you wrong on all counts entirely

 

[☦Marius☦]

Paul never said anything about a post trib rapture - it happens BEFORE the Great Trib begins - it is incorrect to say it does not happen pre trib - you said REPEATEDLY Paul never spoke about a rapture at all - no timing was being discussed - you wrong on all counts entirely

Yes I was wrong that Paul never spoke of a Rapture. Whether that is a post Tribulation or pre is another debate, which I do not wish to get in.

When people talk about "The Rapture", they mostly mean Pre Tribulation. I still disagree that Paul speaks of a Pre Tribulation Rapture, or the Early Church. However since you have provided evidence that he used the word Rapture, I'm not going to argue against that.

Boy you really can't debate without being nasty can you?

 

[redleghunter]

Did you happen to notice that in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 it doesn't say anyone is going into heaven? In fact, it says the opposite.

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven"

-CryptoLutheran

1 Thessalonians 4: NASB
17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I guess it comes down to where Jesus takes us when we meet Him in the clouds.

Sounds a lot alike to this:

John 14: NASB
1“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.3“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4“And you know the way where I am going.” 5Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?”6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

I'm good knowing wherever Jesus is I will be.

 

[redleghunter]

In both cases, however, the direction is downward, from heaven. Not toward heaven. The saints in heaven are given linens, who then accompany the Lord at His coming in glory; herein the marriage supper of the Lamb has come.

The language here is from, not toward. Down, not up.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes but begs the question how they got there in the first place.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Good point. Which means within the text of Matthew 24 what Jesus speaks of must have meaning for the current generation and the one before His Glorious return............

I have no particular problem with those who see things differently than I do. Heck many theologians I respect highly disagree with me on some and even many issues.

One of the things I have problems with is those who demand "show me an exact single line scripture which states such and such in no uncertain terms".

Then when a person refuses to provide an entire theological dissertation for them on a thread here in the forum because entire books or chapters of books have been written on the subject - they hurl the claim out that you are unable to prove your point - based on your refusal to write another book for them or cut and paste from the internet until you run out of space on your post and most folks refuse to devote the time to read it all.

I have long ago tired of such obvious disingenuous games in this forum.

I'm quite sure that they know full well that sound doctrine is often built on multiple scriptural concepts converging in such a way that the resultant theology is unmistakable. The Trinity is such a doctrine as is the eternal security of believers and, IMO, the pre-trib rapture.

Even if we fail to see eye to eye after looking at the scriptures in a systematic way as the Lord clearly meant us to do, I have no real bone to pick with them and simply consider it an intramural debate in most cases.

But the point I have made early on in this thread is one real warning I have about this. That is that one rejection of truth almost always results in or is caused by other rejections.

I.e., as has been amply proven out here in this thread, rejection of the pre-trib rapture is usually linked to a rejection of a literal Tribulation period and a literal Millennial reign. Of course the reverse is also true in most cases.

When things really start to heat up and push comes to shove - other heresies such as rejection of the Trinity come to the surface. Witness the case of our friend Kenny.

While it's not always true - these errors usually run in packs and some of the errors in those packs are out and out heresies.

As the Lord says concerning receiving the teaching of the Holy Spirit (even if it is uncomfortable and difficult to understand) - "Be careful how you listen because the one who has not even what he thinks he has will be taken from him."

One refusal to accept what the scriptures obviously teach when comparing scripture with scripture almost invariable results in an inability to understand other doctrines properly.

Not to open every possible can of worms - But another area where this principle plays out quite often is in the area of soteriology.

For examle - if a person rejects eternal security - there is a pretty good chance that it will become evident that he also teaches a salvation based in some respect on good works. (Which - of course is not a gospel at all in the view of God.)

 

[redleghunter]

It was well understood and taught in regard to the resurrection of the saints Jesus would send out His angels to gather the elect from the ends of the heavens.(The resurrection of us all)It would be on the last day. It would be a bodily resurrection. And those saints alive on earth on that day would be caught up to the Lord and clothed with immortality. There are saints noted in the 1st resurrection therefore those not raised on that day must be those who suffer.

Frankly I was just pointing out Revelation 20 says two resurrections separated by 1000 years.

 

[seventysevens]

Yes I was wrong that Paul never spoke of a Rapture.

You should have said that to begin with , I told you many times to look it up your self and you refused - insulting me to get me to prove something you could have learned without insulting me

 

[☦Marius☦]

You should have said that to begin with , I told you many times to look it up your self and you refused - insulting me to get me to prove something you could have learned without insulting me

If disagreeing with you is insulting you...

I think your expectations of a debate are unreasonable. How am I supposed to look up a verse I don't know of? Also you have been rude and volatile the entire time.

Anyway I am done with this. No point anymore. I don't know why I even get involved in these debates.

 

[redleghunter]

I was repeatedly accused of coming from a scriptural disingenuous place. I want to say I am truly not offended. But, for onlookers: you deserve a detailed answer on this. I wouldn't normally do this, but I consider this doctrine to be dangerous enough to affect the soul - since if it doesn't happen it could cause a loss of faith.

Bolded above.

It can if we fail to read all of 1 Thessalonians 4, especially this portion:

1 Thessalonians 4: NASB

1Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more. 2For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. 3For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. 7For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. 8So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.

9Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; 10for indeed you do practice it toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, to excel still more, 11and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you, 12so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

And we should keep reading in 1 Thessalonians 5 for great teaching and encouragement:

1 Thessalonians 5: NASB
1Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8But since we are of theday, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

I think even if one is convinced of a pre tribulation rapture, with the words above they too will endure to the end.

 

[seventysevens]

If disagreeing with you is insulting you...

I think your expectations of a debate are unreasonable. How am I supposed to look up a verse I don't know of? Also you have been rude and volatile the entire time.

Anyway I am done with this. No point anymore. I don't know why I even get involved in these debates.

Dude this is why you misunderstand so very much- I was never interested in debating it at all - which is why I told you about 10 times repeatedly to look it up yourself as i did not care to debate - but yet you continued to pester me about it
How many times does it take to tell you that you need to research it yourself and read the thread before you finally comprehend that I have no desire and no interest in debating with you !!
IT IS RUDE to pester people to the point you become annoying !!!!!!!

 

[☦Marius☦]

Dude this is why you misunderstand so very much- I was never interested in debating it at all - which is why I told you about 10 times repeatedly to look it up yourself as i did not care to debate - but yet you continued to pester me about it
How many times does it take to tell you that you need to research it yourself and read the thread before you finally comprehend that I have no desire and no interest in debating with you !!
IT IS RUDE to pester people to the point you become annoying !!!!!!!

>Posts on debate board
>Doesn't want debate
>Calls others unstudied and unchristian
>Doesn't expect anyone to respond asking him to back it up

Mayybbee you're on the wrong side of town stranger.

 

[redleghunter]

One of the things I have problems with is those who demand "show me an exact single line scripture which states such and such in no uncertain terms

We get that from atheists all the time. Wonder why the brethren would demand the same thing.

I have long ago tired of such obvious disingenuous games in this forum.

Yes the various prophesy forums here are food fights. I try to avoid them because you really can't have a conversation like you and I are having now.

I.e., as has been amply proven out here in this thread, rejection of the pre-trib rapture is usually linked to a rejection of a literal Tribulation period and a literal Millennial reign. Of course the reverse is also true in most cases.

My observation is it has to do with the nature of Israel in end times as well. When the Church became mainly non Jewish the unbelieving Jewish communities were frowned upon, persecuted and in some cases hated.