Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

keras · Sep 6, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
No, the sun in that day is not killing anyone since this is taking place in a time of healing and restoration. Read the proceeding verses of the same chapter: Isaiah 30:19-25

Read the following verses of Isaiah 30:25b, 26, 27, 28 and 30. They all refer to a massive worldwide disaster. As OT prophecy is especially; a little here, a little there, then interspersed among the prophecies of the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, is the Words of comfort to His faithful people.
This Judgment/punishment by fire is prophesied over 70 times in the Bible. Why do you deny it?

Contenders Edge said:
So, even if the number of a people who call on the name of Jesus, out of an entire whole, are within the range that qualify them as a remnant, and are consistent with the definition of a remnant they are not a remnant unless they are specifically called a remnant?

Have you ever really looked at who the citizens of the Jewish State of Israel actually are?
They are a very mixed ancestry people. Very few of them have any valid claim to descent from Judah.
The prophesies are clear on what their fate will be. Isaiah 22:14, Luke 19:27, & 20+ other prophesies.

You wish for a Jewish redemption, despite the fact they still reject Jesus and live the hedonistic lifestyle. This idea is a major tenet of the false 'rapture to heaven' theory.
The Lord intends to clear and cleanse all of the holy Land, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:14-18, and ALL of the peoples in all of that area will be destroyed by fire. Amos 1, & 2:1-5 Note particularly; Amos 2:4-5
Only the very few Christians will survive underground. Isaiah 29:1-4, Jeremiah 8:3, read Jeremiah 4:23-29, a prophecy that describes as yet never happened; cosmic signs and how people will dive for cover, just as in the Sixth Seal.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 6, 2019

keras said:
Read the following verses of Isaiah 30:25b, 26, 27, 28 and 30. They all refer to a massive worldwide disaster.

Keras, please desist from posting your false futuristic "worldwide disaster" doctrine.............
It has been debunked many times on this board...........
the 70ad Olivet Discourse and Revelation is not "WORLD WIDE"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @
The Historical Fall of Jerusalem in AD70
TRACKING THE FIRST JEWISH REVOLT FROM A
MILITARY POINT OF VIEW
=================================
"Ye will hear of battles and rumors of battles" 1st century concluding in Judea/Jerusalem 70ad

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:
6 “And you will hear of battles and rumors of battles. See that you are not troubled;
for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.
8 “All these are the beginning of sorrows.”

Mark 13:
7 “But when you hear of battles and rumors of battles, do not be troubled;
for such things must happen, but the end is not yet.
8 “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
And there will be earthquakes in various places, and there will be famines and troubles.
These are the beginnings of sorrows.”
Luke 21:
9 “But when you hear of battles and commotions/tumults, do not be terrified;
for these things must come to pass first, but the end is not immediate.”
10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
11 “And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences;
and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.”

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Our Lord now retired to the Mount of Olives, to which place the disciples followed him, in order to make more particular inquiries relative to the time when the calamitous events, foretold by him, would come to pass.

keras · Sep 6, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Keras, please desist from posting your false "worldwide disaster" doctrine.............
It has been debunked many times...........the 70ad Olivet Discourse and Revelation is not "WORLD WIDE"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The forthcoming Day of the Lord fiery wrath has been objected to many times, but 'debunked' NEVER.

I am NOT sorry for promoting what the Prophets tell us will happen. I will continue to post warnings of what the Lord intends to do. If you don't like it and want to biff it all into the bin of history, then you must prove to me and all who read and understand the Prophetic Word, the historical fulfilment of the terrible prophesied earthly and cosmic events, that comprise about a quarter of the Bible.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 6, 2019

Contenders Edge said: ↑
Isaiah 39 has only eight verses. There is no verse 26 and it says nothing about the sun shinning seven times brighter than normal.

keras said:
Sorry typo, it is in Isaiah 30:26 that we are told the Lord will use an explosion of the suns surface to literally fulfil all the graphic prophesies about that terrible Day.
We know how the sun does regularly send out Coronal Mass Ejections and the ones that have affected the earth have been small enough to not cause much, if any damage. But scientists know that if a really big one was earth directed, then what is prophesied can and we know: will happen.
The Lord's threats are not in vain. He will do what He has told us thru the prophets. Ezekiel 33:33

Contenders Edge said:
No, the sun in that day is not killing anyone since this is taking place in a time of healing and restoration. Read the proceeding verses of the same chapter: Isaiah 30:19-25

keras said:
Read the following verses of Isaiah 30:25b, 26, 27, 28 and 30. They all refer to a massive worldwide disaster. As OT prophecy is especially; a little here, a little there, then interspersed among the prophecies of the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, is the Words of comfort to His faithful people.
This Judgment/punishment by fire is prophesied over 70 times in the Bible. Why do you deny it?

Have you ever really looked at who the citizens of the Jewish State of Israel actually are?
They are a very mixed ancestry people. Very few of them have any valid claim to descent from Judah.
The prophesies are clear on what their fate will be. Isaiah 22:14, Luke 19:27, & 20+ other prophesies.

You wish for a Jewish redemption, despite the fact they still reject Jesus and live the hedonistic lifestyle. This idea is a major tenet of the false 'rapture to heaven' theory.
The Lord intends to clear and cleanse all of the holy Land, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:14-18, and ALL of the peoples in all of that area will be destroyed by fire. Amos 1, & 2:1-5 Note particularly; Amos 2:4-5
Only the very few Christians will survive underground. Isaiah 29:1-4, Jeremiah 8:3, read Jeremiah 4:23-29, a prophecy that describes as yet never happened; cosmic signs and how people will dive for cover, just as in the Sixth Seal.

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Keras, please desist from posting your false "worldwide disaster" doctrine.............
It has been debunked many times...........the 70ad Olivet Discourse and Revelation is not "WORLD WIDE"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

keras said:
The forthcoming Day of the Lord fiery wrath has been objected to many times, but 'debunked' NEVER.

I am NOT sorry for promoting what the Prophets tell us will happen. I will continue to post warnings of what the Lord intends to do. If you don't like it and want to biff it all into the bin of history, then you must prove to me and all who read and understand the Prophetic Word, the historical fulfilment of the terrible prophesied earthly and cosmic events, that comprise about a quarter of the Bible.

I suppose this would be a good time to bump up this thread.
Tho I may make a new thread, but include a POLL in it.............

The tribulation will be worldwide

Quasar92 said:
Who will survive the Tribulation?The Tribulation is referred to by Christians as the last 7 years of history before Jesus returns to rule earth. During this time period the Antichrist will come to power, and there will be many natural (and unnatural) disasters, wars, famines, etc. I believe this time is coming very quickly - we can already see some previews in the natural disasters the world has experienced the last few years.
But many people do not seem to be worried. Or they expect that they will be one of the lucky few who survive - just like in the movies. But is this a realistic expectation? What are the actual chances of surviving the Tribulation? Here I will attempt to guess at that number, and see what it means for you personally.Number of Deaths per JudgementMost of the disasters which happen during the Tribulation are listed in the book of Revelation. I have already gone into more detail on each disaster in my article here, so for reference you may wish to read that article first. Below I will list each judgement and list how many the Bible says die from it. Then we'll see what percent of the earth's population is left over. I will assume a world population of 7 billion people at the starting point.Seal JudgementsThe Antichrist appears (Revelation 6:1-2): 0 deaths

For the complete article:
The tribulation is world wide in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum
Quasar92

jgr · Sep 6, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
So, even if the number of a people who call on the name of Jesus, out of an entire whole, are within the range that qualify them as a remnant, and are consistent with the definition of a remnant they are not a remnant unless they are specifically called a remnant?

What saith, and saith not, the Scripture?

It is dispensationalism exclusively which claims that Zechariah 13:9 refers to a remnant.

No one else does.

That includes the author Zechariah himself, who was well familiar with the word, having used it twice previously in Zechariah 8:6,12.

It includes Paul, who does not cite Zechariah in Romans 9:27, but instead cites Isaiah.

If Zechariah 13:9 is a remnant (which it is not), it is not the same remnant of Isaiah and Paul. Dispensationalism's Zechariah remnant lies in the indeterminate future. Isaiah's and Paul's remnant has existed for Israel's virtually entire history.

Dispensationalism's Zechariah remnant is a mirage.

jgr · Sep 6, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
This applies to the nation of Israel as well. (Zech. 13:9, Rom. 9:27, 11:26)

Jews around the world come to Christ, both inside and outside the nation of Israel.

BABerean2 · Sep 6, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
It is just that one day, the believing Jews who are presently in the minority will one day be the entire nation of Israel (Rom. 11:26) and the Greek does not show me to be in error.

Are the believing Jews in the modern State of Israel a part of the Church?

.

keras · Sep 6, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Are the believing Jews in the modern State of Israel a part of the Church? .

I have attended Church services at both the Kingdom Ministries Church, on Jaffa Road and Christs Church in the old city. I can confirm that there are Christian Jews in Israel, last count was about 20,000.
That works out to about .03%. A genuine remnant!

BABerean2 · Sep 6, 2019

keras said:
I have attended Church services at both the Kingdom Ministries Church, on Jaffa Road and Christs Church in the old city. I can confirm that there are Christian Jews in Israel, last count was about 20,000.
That works out to about .03%. A genuine remnant!

This group has built a Bible college in central Israel, and has believers from both Jewish and Arab backgrounds.

They are using electronic media to spread the Gospel among young Israelis.

.

claninja · Sep 7, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
It also goes on to say that if Israel repented, the curses would be lifted and the blessings would be restored. The Apostle Paul said that "if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" (Rom. 11:12) Clearly he believed that principle to still be in effect. He no doubt knew that the wrath of God was upon that generation of Jews who rejected the Gospel and chose enmity with Christ, but at the same time, he also believed that if they did not continue on their rejection of the Gospel, all the blessings pertaining to them could be restored.

If he did not believe that, Romans chapter 11 as we know it today would not exist.

the trespass/stumble of hardened part of natural Israel was the rejection of the messiah, which resulted in the crucifixion. That is why the "fall of Israel" is riches for the world.

The return of some of those hardened ones of natural that rejected Christ is life from the dead. As death came through Adam, life came through Christ. Those dead in their trespasses are made alive by coming to Christ. There is no doubt that those who do not remain in their rejection of Christ but returned to him are restored.

But Romans 11 makes no mention of land restoration. You have yet to provide even 1 verse from romans 11 that mentions land restoration. I have already admitted to using an argument from silence, so Prove me wrong that you are not using an argument from ignorance and provide 1 NT scripture that clearly and explicitly mentions land restoration.

Contenders Edge said:
Show which New Testament scripture explicitly declares that land restoration is no longer in effect. We already know what has explicitly been canceled out because the scripture declares what has been canceled out.

Again you are making an argument from ignorance. The argument that because the NT doesn't specifically mention land restoration, despite the NT explicitly stating the old covenant was done away with, then land restoration is still in effect, is a fallacy in informal logic. An argument from ignorance is ALWAYS a fallacy in informal logic

My argument, one from silence, is that because there is no mention of land restoration in the NT in addition to the NT specifically stating the OT is obsolete and taken away. Arguments from silence are NOT always fallacies in informal logic especially when there is supporting evidence of the entirety of the old covenant made obsolete (hebrews 8:13).

Contenders Edge said:
What does the olive tree represent? Tell me what the olive tree represents and that will determine what the branches represent. One thing for sure is that if the natural branches spared because of their unbelief, the grafted branches will not be spared either if they should fall into sin and unbelief, but those branches, even the natural branches, can be grafted back in if they do not remain in unbelief.

Did I not ask you first what the natural olive tree represents that the natural branches were broken off of, the church or Israel? Why are you deflecting?

Contenders Edge said:
Paul does not interpret passage with Hosea that he cites as pertaining to the reunification of Israel. He does not even say anything about a divided kingdom. His premise pertains to the unification of Jew and Gentile in Christ. That is what he declared to be a fulfillment of Hosea.

Who are the "not my people" in the context of hosea 1?

Hosea 1:4-9 Then the LORD said to Hosea, “Name him Jezreel,b for soon I will bring the bloodshed of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel. And on that day I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel.”Gomer again conceived and gave birth to a daughter, and the LORD said to Hosea, “Name her Lo-ruhamah,cfor I will no longer have compassion on the house of Israel, that I should ever forgive them. Yet I will have compassion on the house of Judah, and I will save them—not by bow or sword or war, not by horses and cavalry, but by the LORD their God.”After she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, Gomer conceived and gave birth to a son. And the LORD said, “Name him Lo-ammi,d for you are not My people, and I am not your God.e

Contenders Edge said:
Whatever degree of mixing took place would have been limited for several reasons. Despite being dispersed throughout the nations, the ethnicity of the Israelites has still been preserved.

What are the reasons the mixing of the house of Israel was limited upon their deportation and resettling throughout the assyrian empire?

Contenders Edge said:
The difference between them and Israel is that Israel was not spread abroad before the exile. The Greeks, on the other hand, were present throughout various lands before their Diaspora.

Israel was not spread out over the world prior to the roman legions destroying Jerusalem? Scripture disagrees:

Acts 2:5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven

Contenders Edge said:
Paul wanted to make clear that being a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in and of itself, did not make one a child of God, but that being a child of God required a spiritual rebirth in Christ.

Right this was my point. natural descent does not make a person a child of God. Under the new covenant it is solely those who are in Christ, regardless of genetics.

Contenders Edge said:
That depends on what you mean by pre-desolation Hebrews. They have faced two desolations. One by the Assyrians which was later completed by the Babylonians. The second, by the Romans.

Coming back from the Babylonian exile, the Jews maintained their geneological records and could prove tribal status, see ezra and nehemiah. Can any citizen of modern day Israel prove their tribal status? As someone who has Jewish DNA I cannot prove my tribal descent nor have I found anyone to date that can.

Contenders Edge said:
But the illustrations used are consistent with what they were intended to represent.

So is Jesus a literal passover lamb, or was that picture that pointed to Jesus' sacrifice?

Jesus coming out egypt mirrors Israel's coming out of egypt (matthew 2:15).

Jesus' temptation in the wilderness for 40 days (matthew 4:1-11) mirrors Israel's temptations in the wilderness for 40 years (deuteronomy 6:13-16, deuteronomy 8:2-4)

The curses of the law were poured out on Israel (daniel 9:13-14) mirrors Jesus becoming a curse for us (galatians 3:13)

Israel was only a picture of Jesus. However, where Israel failed, Jesus fulfilled. Thus all that are in Jesus are the true Israel.

Contenders Edge said:
Apparently God did not require that to re-establish them as a nation, but if they are required for further fulfillment, they will be found. I do not know how that will be made possible, I just know that God will do what is necessary to fulfill what has been foretold.

Jesus is the fulfillment of what has been foretold.

Contenders Edge said:
It did pertain to the point you made, but if you had an answer to it, you would have given it.

So I should answer the straw man argument?

Contenders Edge said:
What Peter is quoting is a promise that the nation of Israel and the Church share in common but they still remain distinct entities. Israel is a divinely established nation with territory and borders. The Church is a divinely established institution that transcends nations and geographical boundaries.

Peter applies the same calling of Israel to the church. Israel was only a picture/shadow of the true realities in Christ.

Contenders Edge said:
That it is used as an illustration of the relationship between Christ and the Church.

Good, I am glad you agree.

Contenders Edge said:
But those visions and riddles have been explained and where they have been explained, there is no dispute, but we cannot assign interpretation where one is not given.Visions that are symbolic are explained, but when no interpretation is given, that is a strong indicator that the vision is a literal depiction. It would take an in depth study to explain the eight chapters of Ezekiel that are devoted to this subject.Ezekiel's Temple is about the reign of Christ on earth. We are not a building with the detailed and elaborate descriptions given to the Temple that Ezekiel saw in his vision. We, however, are a dwelling place for the Holy Spirit until the day we meet Christ face to face.

Not all of the parables are explained by Jesus. Do I believe the kingdom of heaven is literally a man who finds a treasure and the purchases the field? No, I believe it is an earthly story that portrays a heavenly meaning. If we can't understand earthly things, how can we ever understand the heavenly truths these earthly stories point to?

The law of moses Goes into great detail of the temple laws and ordinances under the old covenant. and we know that those were simply a picture of Christ and that we are the true temple serving God with spiritual sacrifices.

If the things spoken to moses clearly and not riddles are pictures of Christ, how much more are the visions and dreams?

The NT gives us explanation as the future temple: we are the temple. Can you provide any Nt scripture that states we will again worship in the literal temple with literal animal sacrifices?

claninja · Sep 7, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
The context in any given passage of scripture is what determines interpretation; whether it is to be taken literally, figuratively, or symbolically. That rule never changes under any given circumstance.

The NT, through the Spirit, gives us the frame work for how to interpret the OT.

Contenders Edge said:
The only conditional promises that were undeniably made was that the descendants of David would inherit his throne consecutively as long as the house of David remained faithful to God. (1 Ki. 4:2, 9:5, 2 Chr. 7:17-18) and that God's presence would dwell in the Temple that Solomon built provided that the people did not turn away from Him. (1 Ki. 6:12-13, 9:3)

Under the Old Covenant, the people of Israel experienced the blessings promised them when they were faithful and obedient to God. All the curses of which they were warned came upon them when they turned away from following the Lord which included most of them being carried into exile, but upon repentance, they were restored to their homeland and blessings were restored to them.

When they rejected the New Covenant that God established in Christ, punishment came upon them again. But if the blessings pertaining to them were restored to them upon repentance under the Old Covenant, the same can be restored to them upon their embrace of the New Covenant and such can be expected of a God who maintains a nature of consistency.

But if "land restoration" was not what Paul had in mind in being tied to their reconciliation with God, then we should expect Romans chapter 11 to make that clear in such a way that there could be no dispute.

The old covenant's promises were conditional upon disobedience; see deuteronomy 28:1-68. Land restoration was conditional upon Israel's repentance, see deuteronomy 30:2.

Land restoration is not found in romans 11. And you have yet to provide even 1 NT verse that specifically and explicitly mentions land restoration.

Contenders Edge said:
Which will be used to draw the world unto Christ even more so than their rejection of Him. First, their spiritual rebirth. And second, as it pertains to them, their exaltation as a nation and a restoration of all they once possessed.

Just as Israel is destined for a spiritual and physical restoration, so the redemption of our souls will also manifest in the redemption our bodies from death.

Where does romans 11 mention Israel's return to the Lord draws the world to christ? There is no mention of the exaltation of natural Israel as a nation in romans 11. Where are you getting this from

Contenders Edge said:
It is under Christ that Israel will finally become the nation they were supposed to be.

According to Peter the nation already existed in the 1st century: 1 Peter 2:9

Contenders Edge said:
In order for there to be a prophetic fulfillment, nations would have to descend from Ephraim. Mixing with pre-existing peoples and nations is not a fulfillment of prophecy. What nations were actually founded by the descendants of Ephraim and can trace their ancestry back to Israel?

the northern kingdom/Ephraim/House of Israel mixing with the nations/gentiles to become a multitude of nations/gentiles is a fulfillment of prophecy. 1.) Ephraim is confirmed to become a fullness of nations in genesis 48:19, 2.) Ephraim is divorced from God in Jeremiah 3:8, 3.) Ephraim becomes no longer God's people in Hosea 1:9, 4.) Paul has a passage about the northern kingdom becoming God's people again as being fulfilled with the inclusion of the gentiles. Thus substantiating that the divorced, exiled, and scattered descendants of the northern kingdom became gentiles.

Contenders Edge said:
In citing the prophet Hosea, Paul made mention of Gentiles but said nothing about the Northern tribes. His rendering of Hosea in this case is different from yours.

In the grammatical historical context of Hosea 1, who are those that became "not my people"? those of the disobedient northern kingdom/house of Israel/Ephraim.

Paul calls these people gentiles in romans 9:23-26.

Contenders Edge said:
Jesus expressed grief over Israel's rejection of Him. This does not sound like a God who has hardened the heart of a people. By all accounts, the people chose to harden their hearts.

God hardens whom he hardens for His purpose. As we can see the vessels made for dishonor's purpose are to make known the riches of His mercy to the vessels of honor for whom he prepared in advance. Thus the the part of Israel that was hardened was for the purpose of crucifying Christ in order that salvation would go to the elect of Israel and the nations.
Romans 9:18-23 Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 2But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”g Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory—

Contenders Edge said:
The Gentiles are not part of the nation of Israel, though some will be saved alongside them because other nations do enter into the Millennial reign alongside Israel.

Ezekiel's vision disagrees.

Ezekiel 47:21-23 You are to divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners who dwell among you and who have children. You are to treat them as native-born Israelites; along with you, they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. In whatever tribe a foreigner dwells, you are to assign his inheritance there, declares the Lord GOD

Contenders Edge said:
First of all, there never was a covenant called "covenant of circumcision" but outward circumcision was established as outward binding act and sign by the participants of the covenants involving circumcision to show that they were committed to faithful obedience to God, and to serve Him alone and no other gods.

There are two covenants that circumcision is associated with. The covenant God made with Abraham and the covenant made by God with the nation of Israel. Circumcision, in both cases, were an outward declaration of faith placed in God and a commitment of faithful obedience to Him and to the laws, statutes, and ordinances that He ordained.

In much the same way, Baptism by water is a public declaration of a professed faith in Christ and an action stating that the one being baptized is committing him or herself to following Jesus.

Secondly, Jesus perpetuates Aaron's priesthood because He is our High priest. How He qualifies genealogically? Examine Mary's family ties. (Lk. 1:5, 36) Her cousin Elizabeth, a descendant of the line of Aaron, was married to Zacharias, a priest. (Lk. 1:5) He had to be a Levite in order to be a priest.

This is how the priesthood of Aaron lives on and is perpetuated forever as God said it would be and when Christ does return to earth, He will be ruling as a King and serving as a Priest.

Not sure what you are talking about, the circumcision is literally called a covenant.

Genesis 15:10 This is My covenant with you and your descendants after you, which you are to keep: Every male among you must be circumcised

secondly, Jesus does not come from Aaron's blood line. Jesus is from Judah. Thus the priesthood of aaron is not literally forever. The NT confirms this by stating the law changed.

Hebrews 7:11-12 Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on this basis the people received the law), why was there still need for another priest to appear—one in the order of Melchizedek and not in the order of Aaron? 12For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed as well.

Contenders Edge said:
144,000 from Israel consisting of 12,000 from each tribe were not sent out to evangelize the world in 70 A.D., nor did two witnesses did not appear in Jerusalem to prophesy and do the things that they will do when they do appear.

But because Israel plays such a central role in the book of Revelation, in order for all the above mentioned to take place a regathering of the Jews to their homeland is clearly required. All these things are yet to come.

Revelation is a vision with symbolic and apocalyptic language. The Jews were living in their home land in 70ad.

Contenders Edge said:
I meant to refer to Romans 11:12 and 15 (I had typed verse 13 by mistake) but what has the fulness of the Jews always consisted of? What has God meant it to consist of in such a way so as to draw the rest of the nations to Him?

Contenders Edge said:
I already answered it: "David knew that he would have a descendant, which is Christ..."

So what David spoke about when he knew God would give him a descendant on the throne is, according to your answer provided: "he would have a descendant". that answer doesn't make any sense to my question, so let's look at what Acts literally tells us what he spoke about:

Acts 2:30-31 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ,

When we actually read the verse we can answer the question appropriately. My question: what did David speak about when he knew God would give him a descendant to sit on the throne?

You're answer: he would have a descendant.

What scripture actually states: the resurrection of Christ.

Contenders Edge said:
But how often does the NT cite the Septuagint? There is no way to determine that from the scripture itself.

Is the word Spermati greek or hebrew? This will tell you what translation was used from which Paul quoted from.

Contenders Edge said:
According to the Strong's Concordance, Paul uses "Sperma" in Galatians 3:16 yet applies it in the singular which it can be. "Spermati" does not appear anywhere in the Strong's, but if "Spermati was indeed used in Exodus 32:13 in the Septuagint, then we have a problem because the Hebrew word for seed in that same passage is used in the plural sense. They cannot both be right.

Paul uses Spermati and also spermasin in Galatians 3:16 see Galatians 3:16 Greek Text Analysis for evidence.

Paul does not use the form"sperma" anywhere in Galatians 3:16. please provide link to evidence that shows paul uses the the form "sperma".

I provided the link that shows, in fact, spermati (singular form) is used in exodue 32:13b in the LXX.

The masoretic text came almost 1000 years after the LXX. Considering the promises were to spermati (singular). I'll stick with what is consistent: Galatians 3:16: spermati.

Contenders Edge said:
Not at the first coming, but what about the second coming?

If you are willing to accept it, which it appears your are not, John IS the elijah who was to come according to Christ

Matthew 11:13-14 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come.

Contenders Edge said:
What nations trace their beginnings back to Ephraim?

As ephraim would have mixed with pre-existing nations due to their deportation and resettlement through the Assyrian empire, it would be almost impossible to know.

Contenders Edge said:
The passage states that the houses of Israel and Judah would be sown "with man and beast", and that is happening in the land of Israel today.

I would argue that is what happened with the great commission, as Jesus confirms that he is the sower.

Contenders Edge · Sep 7, 2019

keras said:
Read the following verses of Isaiah 30:25b, 26, 27, 28 and 30. They all refer to a massive worldwide disaster. As OT prophecy is especially; a little here, a little there, then interspersed among the prophecies of the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, is the Words of comfort to His faithful people.
This Judgment/punishment by fire is prophesied over 70 times in the Bible. Why do you deny it?

Verses 25 and 26 speak primarily about the restoration of Israel and the beginning of a new and better age than today as do the verses preceding them starting at verse 19. It is at verse 27 that the focus shifts back to judgment. Destruction and death do not seem to be associated with the brightness of the sun in verse 26.

There is no denial that fire will be involved in judgment upon this world, but it will not all be from the sun.

keras said:
Have you ever really looked at who the citizens of the Jewish State of Israel actually are?
They are a very mixed ancestry people. Very few of them have any valid claim to descent from Judah.
The prophesies are clear on what their fate will be. Isaiah 22:14, Luke 19:27, & 20+ other prophesies.

You wish for a Jewish redemption, despite the fact they still reject Jesus and live the hedonistic lifestyle. This idea is a major tenet of the false 'rapture to heaven' theory.
The Lord intends to clear and cleanse all of the holy Land, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:14-18, and ALL of the peoples in all of that area will be destroyed by fire. Amos 1, & 2:1-5 Note particularly; Amos 2:4-5
Only the very few Christians will survive underground. Isaiah 29:1-4, Jeremiah 8:3, read Jeremiah 4:23-29, a prophecy that describes as yet never happened; cosmic signs and how people will dive for cover, just as in the Sixth Seal.

You are citing passages that have already been fulfilled. As for the citizens of Israel, their acceptance into Israel has been based upon evidence of Jewish ancestry that is available whether it be genetic, family history, or both. DNA evidence is always taken into consideration but not always a qualifier.

And again, Isaiah 29:1-4 and Jeremiah 8:3 say nothing of people hiding beneath the ground, much less the godly. As for the sixth seal in the book of Revelation, the people that are taking underneath the hills and in the caves are wicked people who are attempting, but in vain, fleeing from the wrath of the lamb. They are not the godly.

Contenders Edge · Sep 7, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Are the believing Jews in the modern State of Israel a part of the Church?

.

Of course they are. No one is denying or disputing that. The debate centers around Israel's repentance as a nation.

Contenders Edge · Sep 7, 2019

jgr said:
Jews around the world come to Christ, both inside and outside the nation of Israel.

No one is debating or disputing that. The issue is whether the nation as a whole will be saved which, according to the Apostle Paul, they will. (Rom. 11:26)

Contenders Edge · Sep 7, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
I suppose this would be a good time to bump up this thread.
Tho I may make a new thread, but include a POLL in it.............

The tribulation will be worldwide

I will be sure to visit that thread at some point and convey my thoughts. It will be added to a list of other threads I intend to visit as well.

Contenders Edge · Sep 7, 2019

jgr said:
What saith, and saith not, the Scripture?

It is dispensationalism exclusively which claims that Zechariah 13:9 refers to a remnant.

No one else does.

That includes the author Zechariah himself, who was well familiar with the word, having used it twice previously in Zechariah 8:6,12.

It includes Paul, who does not cite Zechariah in Romans 9:27, but instead cites Isaiah.

If Zechariah 13:9 is a remnant (which it is not), it is not the same remnant of Isaiah and Paul. Dispensationalism's Zechariah remnant lies in the indeterminate future. Isaiah's and Paul's remnant has existed for Israel's virtually entire history.

Dispensationalism's Zechariah remnant is a mirage.

If two thirds of a people are destroyed, would the remaining third which is saved be consistent with what is understood to be a remnant?

As for the remnant of Isaiah and Paul, it is spoken in the future tense as it pertains to who is left of the nation when the nation is saved. Where the remnant is referred to in the present tense, it is in reference to the Jews who are coming to Christ at present even though the nation and the people as a whole have not yet repented.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 7, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
I suppose this would be a good time to bump up this thread.
Tho I may make a new thread, but include a POLL in it.............

The tribulation will be worldwide

Contenders Edge said:
I will be sure to visit that thread at some point and convey my thoughts. It will be added to a list of other threads I intend to visit as well.

My new thread..........the Jews need to read the Olivet Disourse and Revelation or they will always be "blinded" to Jesus and what He fulfilled for them.........
Let's help them prove Yahwhe/Jesus did indeed fulfill all things for them and quit this squabbling over land...........

Olivet Discourse and Revelation...Worldwide Global or Regional
Question.............
Do the events described in Daniel, the Olivet Disourse and Revelation concern the entire Global world or a certain Region in the world.

Matt 24 and Revelation global or regional

*
Regional Israel and Jerusalem
3 vote(s)
50.0%
Global Worldwide
2 vote(s)
33.3%
*
Both. It is regional but affects the wolrd
2 vote(s)
33.3%
I don't know
0 vote(s)
0.0%
Other
0 vote(s)
0.0%

[/quote][/quote]

jgr · Sep 8, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
If two thirds of a people are destroyed, would the remaining third which is saved be consistent with what is understood to be a remnant?

As for the remnant of Isaiah and Paul, it is spoken in the future tense as it pertains to who is left of the nation when the nation is saved. Where the remnant is referred to in the present tense, it is in reference to the Jews who are coming to Christ at present even though the nation and the people as a whole have not yet repented.

Our readers now have sufficient Scriptural information to make an informed decision as to the Scriptural identify of the remnant.

Let's not forget that the dispensational remnant includes Caiaphas and all who were responsible for Christ's death, the entire Sanhedrin of over seventy individuals. (Zechariah 12:10).

Be ready to greet them warmly on the streets of gold.

BABerean2 · Sep 8, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
Of course they are. No one is denying or disputing that. The debate centers around Israel's repentance as a nation.

Membership in the New Covenant only comes through individual repentance, and faith in Christ.

It it not defined by earthly geographic location, or national boundaries.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

.

Danoh · Sep 8, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
No one is debating or disputing that. The issue is whether the nation as a whole will be saved which, according to the Apostle Paul, they will. (Rom. 11:26)

He asserts that after having already noted that not all Israel (even back then) is Israel.

While, throughout Romans 9-11 he has been asserting that he is referring to a remnant (Believing Israelites) within their nation (the nation Israel in general, back then), just as he noted a contrast between the two at the beginning of Romans 3.

Things that differ are not the same, 2 Tim. 2:15-18.

Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Newbie

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency