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Is the Human Brain a Null Hypothesis for Darwinian Evolution?

Can the Evolution of the Human Brain be a Basis for a Null Hypothesis of Darwinism?


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mark kennedy

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Whoever has been telling you that is decades behind in knowledge of the human and chimpanzee genomes. The near identity claim was based on an old partial sequencing only of gene coding sequences. I'm a biologist, and the more CRAP I hear spewed by anti-science clods as the "science" they oppose, the more I wonder just what garbage can they're getting this alleged "science" out of and why they refuse to learn real science before shooting their mouths off.

It's everywhere, even in the web focus article announcing the paper:

What makes us human? We share more than 98% of our DNA and almost all of our genes with our closest living relative, the chimpanzee. (Chimp Genome Web Focus)
The paper says otherwise:

  • Single-nucleotide substitutions occur at a mean rate of 1.23% between copies of the human and chimpanzee genome...
  • Orthologous proteins in human and chimpanzee, with ~29% being identical and the typical orthologue differing by only two amino acids, one per lineage....
  • On the basis of this analysis, we estimate that the human and chimpanzee genomes each contain 40–45 Mb of species-specific euchromatic sequence, and the indel differences between the genomes thus total ~90 Mb. This difference corresponds to ~3% of both genomes and dwarfs the 1.23% difference resulting from nucleotide substitutions; this confirms and extends several recent studies (Chimp Genome)
They are 98% the same if you ignore the indels. Maybe you should get your facts straight before you shoot you mouth off with some garbage not based in anything remotely resembling an actual scientific fact.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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Loudmouth

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The doctrine that species, including man, are descended from other species...

That isn't assumed. That is a conclusion drawn from evidence.

All change in the organic, as well as in the inorganic world, being the result of law, and not of miraculous interposition. (Darwin)

Again, that is a conclusion based on evidence, such as the difference in divergence rates between introns and exons. When observations are consistent with known natural mechanisms, then you conclude that natural processes are the best explanation. That's how evidence works.
 
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Loudmouth

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It's everywhere, even in the web focus article announcing the paper:

What makes us human? We share more than 98% of our DNA and almost all of our genes with our closest living relative, the chimpanzee. (Chimp Genome Web Focus)
The paper says otherwise:
Single-nucleotide substitutions occur at a mean rate of 1.23% between copies of the human and chimpanzee genome...

A 1.23% difference is >98% similarity.

Orthologous proteins in human and chimpanzee, with ~29% being identical and the typical orthologue differing by only two amino acids, one per lineage....

Last I checked, 29% of genes can differ by a few amino acids and still be 98% similar overall.

On the basis of this analysis, we estimate that the human and chimpanzee genomes each contain 40–45 Mb of species-specific euchromatic sequence, and the indel differences between the genomes thus total ~90 Mb. This difference corresponds to ~3% of both genomes and dwarfs the 1.23% difference resulting from nucleotide substitutions; this confirms and extends several recent studies (Chimp Genome)

Doesn't change the fact that of the DNA we share, the DNA is 98% similar.
 
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Atheos canadensis

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Bugeyedcreepy

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Scientific method produced the data regarding genomics, comparative anatomy, fossil analysis and a host of radiometric data sets. This is after the fact, this is after scientific methodology has completed it's work. Now the inference of God as primary first cause is in bounds and you don't get to hid behind some psuedo scientific mumbo jumbo that insists God cannot be a cause. We are not doing anything scientific here except occasionally digesting some of their work. You keep saying science like it's a magic word or something, it has intrinsic meaning, it's a philosophy not a rule of conduct forbidding theistic reasoning.
...Theistic reasoning post fact of course. Once you have the data & findings, what you do with the data & findings can be as subjective as you'd like. This is how the world already works, Militant regimes use it to ratchet up their military prowess, Creationists of all religious persuasions pick & choose bits to promote their version of theology, Doctors and Scientists use these earlier findings themselves to further medicine and societal health, etc. Again, nothing would be gained by supposing supernatural interference when the natural explanations often suffice. Where we have found answers to questions previously unanswerable, it was by NOT assuming supernatural interference & pursuing naturalistic causes, this is why it has worked so well. If you conclude 'Supernatural' whateverwhateverwhatever as a result, then Science effectively stops right there. So, if it ain't broke...
Muslims and Buddhists don't accept the Trinity, that doesn't make it not true. As a matter of fact scientists are mixed on Christian conviction just accept Darwinian logic unconditionally in that context. What they think doesn't mean I have to accept their conclusions, that's called an argument from credulity. Rome for centuries made the pretense that if you don't hear it from them it's not Christian, they were wrong.
Doesn't make the trinity true either. Again, given you don't work in a field where the results of science actually make a difference, your resistance to this process is of no concern aside the misinformation you promulgate. Christian Scientists accept the findings of Science (some of them, the results of Christian Scientists too) because it Works, and they too often have to use these findings in their own research and/or work.
I wasn't aware of that statistic but it sounds about right, definitely selection in action. Johnathan Wells makes an interesting point along these lines:

The diversity of the earliest stages of development, here illustrated strictly within the vertebrates, provides one of the strongest challenges to the neo-Darwinian conception of homology and macroevolution. Given the hierarchical, step-wise logic or "architecture" of animal development, early stages such as cleavage and gastrulation lay the groundwork for all that follows. Body plan structures in the adult, for example, trace their cellular lineage to these early stages. Thus, if macroevolution is going to occur, it must begin in early development. Yet it is precisely here, in early development, that organisms are least tolerant of mutations. Furthermore, the adult homologies shared by these vertebrates commence at remarkably different points (e.g., cleavage patterns). How then did these different starting points evolve from a common ancestor? (Homology: A concept in Crisis)​
I still don't see the challenge. Of course, the biological development of every advantage that would see an organism live to reproduce includes development through to adulthood for that reproduction to occur. Wherever the development occurs, in no way invalidates that benefits are passed on, and changes can accumulate.
Actually I see it as philosophical, nothing is really being threatened here except a handful of egg heads in their Ivy League ivory towers.
And of course, therein lies the issue. That you don't value objective Science doesn't nullify the actual findings and their benefits to every aspect of our modern lives, technology and further progress. To want to compromise this to insert your preferred theology, just demonstrates your preference of religion over the scientific method, and America is already paying a price. Going back 50 years, America was THE Technological and progressive society on the Planet. Now, the US is quickly being overtaken by any number of countries in pretty much every field of Science & Technology. China in particular will be the biggest profiteers from American theological discourse interfering with science education.
How well you don't know the Scriptures, the best persevered written records from antiquity, there is no close second. The prophecies of Scripture are very specific down to the time and place the Messiah would be born. The word that went out during the time of Moses and Joshua, Elisha and Elijah, Christ and the Apostles were confirmed by signs, wonders and mighty deeds. Now I can't convince you but lets give up the pretense that the Bible is somehow discredited primary source material, that's just not true. I've spent a lot of time looking into internal, external and bibliographical testing and the Scriptures are incomparable. Perhaps the single strongest evidence of their authenticity is the nation of Israel, but we can get into that another time.
Yes, yes, the Bible proves the Bible... Any case, Israel was a self-fulfilling prophecy if ever there was one. How long does a Nation take to make, especially when there are vested interests in international power? By contrast, when was America formed - is there an Independence Month, or something - or was it too a nation in a day? To a layperson not versed in the Bible, it is hard to accept as something a God would produce. It requires trained middlemen to extract the true meaning, and even they can't agree. With the 36,000 odd denominations of Christianity, how am I supposed to believe any of them, when almost all of them claim 100% knowledge of God and his Word? At the very best, only ONE Denomination could have it 100% right... just one. they could all be wrong though...

....AAaaaand of course, Tyr still stands today.
Nor do you get to recreate an historical event in a test tube. Just because God can't be shaken up in a beaker and turned blue doesn't mean God doesn't exist or act in time and space. You equivocating methodological investigations into natural phenomenon with reality, it's absurd. So what if God can't be postulated in lab work, that doesn't mean you can't take the information science produces and still conclude God acted in time and space. So that's not scientific, it's not artistic either but I don't see artists have a fit about it.
You're right, If you want to see God in whatever results comes from a scientific investigation, you're certainly free to do so, just leave Science out of it. Besides, if God exists and has anything to do with us, then why wouldn't he be quantifiable in some way? He would literally have to change this universe in some way to have any effect at all. Even us having knowledge would require a physical and/or chemical state change in our synapses - as much as we can't measure it with high fidelity just yet, there's been quite an afoot on this front in science. All that aside, the dodgy round-a-bout way believers position their God as an ethereal player of hide-and-go-seek with your supposed 'eternal salvation', kinda makes it hard to take seriously as wanting to have a relationship with me. Why is it so important that he remain hidden from every empirical way we could verify him, aside Faith? Faith is completely unreliable, otherwise everyone would follow the one true religion.
Can you hear yourself? Science only investigates natural phenomenon so it can't investigate the supernatural so if there was such a thing as a miracle Science could test for it but since it can't investigate the supernatural it must not have happened. That's circular logic, if science can investigate and conclude a miracle then it's relevant to creation, if it can't then it will only get you so far and rationality and philosophy have to take you the rest of the way. You don't get to eat your cake and then have it, either science can confirm or deny a miracle or it can't.
No, Science doesn't say that at all. Science can't investigate the Supernatural - that's it! Science makes no statement about the Supernatural, other than to acknowledge it's unable to test for it, let alone whether something Supernatural happened or not. Again, the moment you want to posit a Supernatural event that Science couldn't investigate, Scientific inquiry stops! On the other hand, if a 'Miracle' were to occur, then something about this universe necessarily changed, and that we Can investigate - otherwise, the 'Miracle' is pointless... no?
Most of them are cyclical not cumulative.
....so you agree that some can be cumulative then, right? :)
Which is not something you decided based on science, science has to have a pass or fail, up or down, on or off. You just decided God doesn't exist or that supernatural causation was illusory. That's not called science, that's called atheistic materialism and equivocating the two is fallacious rhetoric, not rationalistic reason.

God cannot be considered a cause, so that means science can't eliminate God as a cause, but you say it's science that tells us God is not the cause. Surely you see how illogical that is.
No, It is Exactly based on Science, and I Didn't say God doesn't exist. You're half right though, Science works by disproving propositions, so it can generally only fail a proposed question. If it is demonstrable that the question proposed can only be one of two scenarios, then that's the only time that we could have one or the other answer. Again, Science works by disproving propositions. If a proposition is not disproved, then it can be tentatively accepted as true until further research is done that falsifies it **. Since a supernatural God can't be tested by Science, then Science can't disprove a supernatural God. Simple. It's just that Science and the Scientific Method work best with the assumption that our universe operates on completely naturalistic means. Remember, it doesn't mean that God isn't real, just that the Scientific Method wouldn't work as spectacularly as it does otherwise.

** My tentative acceptance of a proposition though, That is contingent on reasoned evidence. That's because I want to believe as many true thing and as few false things as possible. The Scientific Method takes care of falsifying positions (but the Supernatural can't be falsified remember), so that's sorted. In order to not believe in false things, I have to have evidence (or verified personal experience) to tentatively accept a proposition as true. By default, non-belief is appropriate, lest I start believing in all sorts of quackery and shams (false religions included), many of which are without foundation & prey on the gullible who are conditioned to believe in all sorts of nonsense by the insistence of their faith to do the same. Otherwise, I could be believing in God, Allah, Odin, Thor, Ra, Ghosts, Homeopathy, a Flat Earth, Invisible Pink Unicorns & a Flying Teapot orbiting Mars.
What we learned from Newton was the principles of motion and calculus. I'm not going to science for answers to the questions regarding our origins, remember how you keep saying science can't investigate such things. Science is a tool, it produces a product, what we are talking about is a product not a process.
Right there! You already have your Answer so you'll never ask the Question! Just because YOU already believe life couldn't come about by natural means indicates I am exactly right about Religion stymieing Scientific Inquiry! Remember, almost Everything was at one time or another attributed to the divine providence of Gods. Thor isn't worshiped now because we found materialistic causes for thunder and lightning, Islam in their Golden Age fearfully trashed whole libraries of accumulated knowledge under Caliph Al Mutawakkil, throwing their civilization back centuries, Galileo got to sit in a stone room for a good portion of his life for his heliocentric outlook upsetting the Church, Louis Pasteur's Germ Theory of Disease was ridiculed by (protestant ?) priests at the time for attributing natural causes to sickness and disease, they labeled him a crackpot. even The Wright Brothers copped heat from religious folk, for "if God wanted us to Fly, he'd have given us Wings!", etc.
Two things here, nothing scientific is being discussed. There was that one quote about spontaneous abortions but the rest has been circular logic. Don't you get a little dizzy doing this because I get tired of chasing it around the mulberry bush.
Okay, so we're Good! Science can do its thing & Creationists can invoke their preferred version of God into the gaps that Science hasn't found an answer for yet. After all, we have already agreed that Science can't test the supernatural, right? So long as Science doesn't start including supernatural reasons as causal agents, Scientists are still able to investigate, refine & build upon these earlier scientific conclusions.
You just contradicted yourself, it's either one way or the other. You can't rule God out and you can't consider God and that leads to a conclusion how?
How? Where do you conclude God should be considered and not investigated by Science? How would Science progress?? This is Exactly where Science would have to stop because the Scientific Method can ONLY Investigate the Natural. Science has been the success it has been because it Doesn't consider the Supernatural in any way. The moment you include a God or the Supernatural, Science and the Scientific method become useless.
First of all Christian conviction works this way, God calls you to repentance, you hear and believe the Gospel, you receive the Holy Spirit of promise. There is nothing empirical required. I don't need science for Christian conviction and I'm not trying to convert the epistemology of science to natural theology, neither is anyone else.
.....whatever. If your particular God exists and wants a relationship with me, he shouldn't be so evasive. And again, I agree that Science and the Scientific Method have nothing to do with the Supernatural. It doesn't position itself either way on the existence (or not) of God. A point though, If your Christian Conviction isn't reliant on Science, then why on earth do you spend so much effort scientifically bashing square pegs into a round holes around here? it certainly doesn't seem like you trust the scientific community (you know, the one with hundreds of thousands of professional scientists who've each studied the subject matter intently at a University full-time for several years) and their findings borne of their research...

You didn't answer my question btw, do you believe Newton to be Jesus reincarnated?
You keep saying science like we are standing around a lab in lab coats trying to come up with a null hypothesis. We are not, we are leaving a bakery with fresh baked bread and cup cakes, we don't have to be bakers to eat them. What we are running in circles over is nothing more then an equivocation of natural science with naturalistic assumptions and they are not the same thing.

I'm all in favor of introducing scientific evidence into the conversation, actually do it all the time. The fallacious rhetoric takes all the fun out of it though, they are arguments that never happened.
so, no, you can't do it then? If there's no meaningful way we can both keep the Scientific Method effective, and include the Supernatural at any stage of the process, then my argument stands. There's nothing gained in Science by including talk of the Supernatural and in fact, the Scientific Method would effectively become useless the very moment you incorporate the Supernatural. All inquiry stops at that point (See your statement above on the origin of life for example...). Even though it isn't you and I standing around in Lab Coats, there's plenty who are, and this is exactly the problem they'd have trying to invoke the Supernatural as a causal agent. Creationist never get this, which is likely why they see no issue changing state education standards to include their favorite religion in the Science curriculum. It's the death knell for actual Science, and it will have a lasting impact the moment they succeed.

Have a nice day :),
Mark
:)
 
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mark kennedy

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...Theistic reasoning post fact of course. Once you have the data & findings, what you do with the data & findings can be as subjective as you'd like. This is how the world already works, Militant regimes use it to ratchet up their military prowess, Creationists of all religious persuasions pick & choose bits to promote their version of theology, Doctors and Scientists use these earlier findings themselves to further medicine and societal health, etc. Again, nothing would be gained by supposing supernatural interference when the natural explanations often suffice. Where we have found answers to questions previously unanswerable, it was by NOT assuming supernatural interference & pursuing naturalistic causes, this is why it has worked so well. If you conclude 'Supernatural' whateverwhateverwhatever as a result, then Science effectively stops right there. So, if it ain't broke...

Which leaves out the possibility that God creating life is a possibility. A long way to go to avoid the obvious.

Doesn't make the trinity true either. Again, given you don't work in a field where the results of science actually make a difference, your resistance to this process is of no concern aside the misinformation you promulgate. Christian Scientists accept the findings of Science (some of them, the results of Christian Scientists too) because it Works, and they too often have to use these findings in their own research and/or work.

Which leaves one to wonder, works for what exactly?

I still don't see the challenge. Of course, the biological development of every advantage that would see an organism live to reproduce includes development through to adulthood for that reproduction to occur. Wherever the development occurs, in no way invalidates that benefits are passed on, and changes can accumulate.

Or those changes can be cyclical, the obvious seems to be oblivious to you.

And of course, therein lies the issue. That you don't value objective Science doesn't nullify the actual findings and their benefits to every aspect of our modern lives, technology and further progress. To want to compromise this to insert your preferred theology, just demonstrates your preference of religion over the scientific method, and America is already paying a price. Going back 50 years, America was THE Technological and progressive society on the Planet. Now, the US is quickly being overtaken by any number of countries in pretty much every field of Science & Technology. China in particular will be the biggest profiteers from American theological discourse interfering with science education.

China hasn't benefited from Creationist thinking, that's absurd. They abandoned theistic reasoning long ago and haven't benefited in the slightest.

Yes, yes, the Bible proves the Bible... Any case, Israel was a self-fulfilling prophecy if ever there was one. How long does a Nation take to make, especially when there are vested interests in international power? By contrast, when was America formed - is there an Independence Month, or something - or was it too a nation in a day? To a layperson not versed in the Bible, it is hard to accept as something a God would produce. It requires trained middlemen to extract the true meaning, and even they can't agree. With the 36,000 odd denominations of Christianity, how am I supposed to believe any of them, when almost all of them claim 100% knowledge of God and his Word? At the very best, only ONE Denomination could have it 100% right... just one. they could all be wrong though...

The Bible is a stand alone historical narrative as well as other things. I really don't know what you meant by this particular rant and I'm not sure you did either.

....AAaaaand of course, Tyr still stands today.

So now you descend from incoherent to incomprehensible.

You're right, If you want to see God in whatever results comes from a scientific investigation, you're certainly free to do so, just leave Science out of it. Besides, if God exists and has anything to do with us, then why wouldn't he be quantifiable in some way? He would literally have to change this universe in some way to have any effect at all. Even us having knowledge would require a physical and/or chemical state change in our synapses - as much as we can't measure it with high fidelity just yet, there's been quite an afoot on this front in science. All that aside, the dodgy round-a-bout way believers position their God as an ethereal player of hide-and-go-seek with your supposed 'eternal salvation', kinda makes it hard to take seriously as wanting to have a relationship with me. Why is it so important that he remain hidden from every empirical way we could verify him, aside Faith? Faith is completely unreliable, otherwise everyone would follow the one true religion.

Almost something here to wrap you mind around but salvation is exclusively a theistic topic. God being first cause isn't subject to the whims and caprices of the skeptics. God being the transcendent first cause does not go away because you choose to dismiss faith. Inductive and deductive approaches to truth are not mutually exclusive, you must realize that reason is far larger then inductive, empirical testing.

No, Science doesn't say that at all. Science can't investigate the Supernatural - that's it! Science makes no statement about the Supernatural, other than to acknowledge it's unable to test for it, let alone whether something Supernatural happened or not. Again, the moment you want to posit a Supernatural event that Science couldn't investigate, Scientific inquiry stops! On the other hand, if a 'Miracle' were to occur, then something about this universe necessarily changed, and that we Can investigate - otherwise, the 'Miracle' is pointless... no?

Then if God acts in time and space science is incompetent? That make sense to me so how would that negate God as cause of life on earth? If God did actually create life then let's not pretend science is the arbitrator of the reality of God, just respect the limits. A miracle isn't meaningless if it actually happens.

....so you agree that some can be cumulative then, right? :)

Sure, why not?

No, It is Exactly based on Science, and I Didn't say God doesn't exist. You're half right though, Science works by disproving propositions, so it can generally only fail a proposed question. If it is demonstrable that the question proposed can only be one of two scenarios, then that's the only time that we could have one or the other answer. Again, Science works by disproving propositions. If a proposition is not disproved, then it can be tentatively accepted as true until further research is done that falsifies it **. Since a supernatural God can't be tested by Science, then Science can't disprove a supernatural God. Simple. It's just that Science and the Scientific Method work best with the assumption that our universe operates on completely naturalistic means. Remember, it doesn't mean that God isn't real, just that the Scientific Method wouldn't work as spectacularly as it does otherwise.

Still begging the question of proof. You keep saying science as if you bothered to define the term. Your arguing around the real issues. If science isn't able to discern a miracle and a miracle happens how is that confirmed?

** My tentative acceptance of a proposition though, That is contingent on reasoned evidence. That's because I want to believe as many true thing and as few false things as possible. The Scientific Method takes care of falsifying positions (but the Supernatural can't be falsified remember), so that's sorted. In order to not believe in false things, I have to have evidence (or verified personal experience) to tentatively accept a proposition as true. By default, non-belief is appropriate, lest I start believing in all sorts of quackery and shams (false religions included), many of which are without foundation & prey on the gullible who are conditioned to believe in all sorts of nonsense by the insistence of their faith to do the same. Otherwise, I could be believing in God, Allah, Odin, Thor, Ra, Ghosts, Homeopathy, a Flat Earth, Invisible Pink Unicorns & a Flying Teapot orbiting Mars.

I enjoyed that, especially the part where you managed to include personal experience. I just don't get how you can equivocate all those pagan inferences that are not represented in Christian theism. Rambling at best but if you could focus on what we are talking about it would be helpful.

Right there! You already have your Answer so you'll never ask the Question! Just because YOU already believe life couldn't come about by natural means indicates I am exactly right about Religion stymieing Scientific Inquiry! Remember, almost Everything was at one time or another attributed to the divine providence of Gods. Thor isn't worshiped now because we found materialistic causes for thunder and lightning, Islam in their Golden Age fearfully trashed whole libraries of accumulated knowledge under Caliph Al Mutawakkil, throwing their civilization back centuries, Galileo got to sit in a stone room for a good portion of his life for his heliocentric outlook upsetting the Church, Louis Pasteur's Germ Theory of Disease was ridiculed by (protestant ?) priests at the time for attributing natural causes to sickness and disease, they labeled him a crackpot. even The Wright Brothers copped heat from religious folk, for "if God wanted us to Fly, he'd have given us Wings!", etc.

There is no witness of pagan gods doing something, those religious systems have faded into history. Galileo was a devout Christian and a strong Catholic who won a scientific argument to be broad sided with a theologically contrived argument. I don't know what to tell you about Pasteur, he did manage to take the legs out of abiogenesis but it does seem to manage to dress itself up as science in the form of Darwinism. What the Wright brothers have to do with it is a mystery perhaps even you don't have a clue about.

Okay, so we're Good! Science can do its thing & Creationists can invoke their preferred version of God into the gaps that Science hasn't found an answer for yet. After all, we have already agreed that Science can't test the supernatural, right? So long as Science doesn't start including supernatural reasons as causal agents, Scientists are still able to investigate, refine & build upon these earlier scientific conclusions.

We are not good we are golden. Science can makes it's determination of observations based on natural phenomenon but when it comes to the first cause they are going to have to stop. It's Darwinism that wanders from beyond the limits of science and that is the whole problem.

How? Where do you conclude God should be considered and not investigated by Science? How would Science progress?? This is Exactly where Science would have to stop because the Scientific Method can ONLY Investigate the Natural. Science has been the success it has been because it Doesn't consider the Supernatural in any way. The moment you include a God or the Supernatural, Science and the Scientific method become useless.

Then Science should only investigate nature and stop making claims to have disproved a miraculous creation it doesn't have the ability to even address.

I would address the rest of the post but it's a bit rambling. Thanks for sharing your thoughts but I'm into a bit more evidencal and detailed discussion. All this talk about what science is, and it doesn't have anything scientific in it. How on earth is that even possible?

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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A 1.23% difference is >98% similarity.

Not counting indels as usual.

Last I checked, 29% of genes can differ by a few amino acids and still be 98% similar overall.

29% are identical with overall genes differing by one amino acid per gene per genome. How do you miss the obvious so often?

Doesn't change the fact that of the DNA we share, the DNA is 98% similar.

Doesn't change the fact that there are gaps, called indels, that makes the divergence between 5% and 6%. Nice dodge but you have really abandoned the actual evidence.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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Loudmouth

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Not counting indels as usual.

The indel rate is 1/6th of the substitution rate.

29% are identical with overall genes differing by one amino acid per gene per genome. How do you miss the obvious so often?

WHAT AM I MISSING???????????

70% of genes can be different by 1 amino acid and still be >98% similar at the DNA level across all genes.

According to this paper, the average human protein is 400 amino acids. If they differ by 1 amino acid, that would be a 0.25% difference at the amino acid level. What am I missing?

Doesn't change the fact that there are gaps, called indels, that makes the divergence between 5% and 6%.

A 10 base indel counts as 1 mutation, not 10.
 
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mark kennedy

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The indel rate is 1/6th of the substitution rate.

Yet the 3% to 4% from indels dwarfs the 1% from substitutions.

WHAT AM I MISSING???????????

DELETERIUOS EFFECTS!!!!!!

70% of genes can be different by 1 amino acid and still be >98% similar at the DNA level across all genes.

yet 20% of the protein products show gross structural along with 53 de novo (brand new) genes predominantly expressed in the brain and testes. Most of this happening 2 million years ago for no apparent reason with highly conserved genes being radically overhauled by unknown processes after 90 to 300 million years of stasis.

According to this paper, the average human protein is 400 amino acids. If they differ by 1 amino acid, that would be a 0.25% difference at the amino acid level. What am I missing?

According to the Chimp genome paper there is a great abundance of 300 bp indels. with the average protein coding gene about the same size. You miss the inevitable devastating effects from DNA randomly added and deleted.

A 10 base indel counts as 1 mutation, not 10.

until it's a million base pair long then it's six orders of magnitude more dangerous the a single base pair and dodging this point betrays a lack of confidence.
 
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Loudmouth

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Yet the 3% to 4% from indels dwarfs the 1% from substitutions.

35 million substitutions dwarfs 5 million indels. Again, a 10 base indel does not count as 10 mutations.

DELETERIUOS EFFECTS!!!!!!

WHERE???????

What are the deleterious effects being caused by the 40 million mutations that separate chimps and humans?

yet 20% of the protein products show gross structural along with 53 de novo (brand new) genes predominantly expressed in the brain and testes.

Why can't there be 53 de novo proteins while chimps and humans still share the amount of DNA described in the chimp genome paper?

Why can't a 2% difference in genes produce gross structural changes? Why aren't those gross structural changes causing deleterious effects?

Most of this happening 2 million years ago for no apparent reason with highly conserved genes being radically overhauled by unknown processes after 90 to 300 million years of stasis.

The processes are mutation and selection, and they occur because individuals who are more fit pass on their genes at a higher rate than those who are less fit. It's called evolution.

Also, why aren't those changes deleterious? You keep claiming that they have to be deleterious, yet here humans are doing just fine with those changes. How do you explain that?

According to the Chimp genome paper there is a great abundance of 300 bp indels. with the average protein coding gene about the same size. You miss the inevitable devastating effects from DNA randomly added and deleted.

I can't miss what you haven't presented.

until it's a million base pair long then it's six orders of magnitude more dangerous the a single base pair and dodging this point betrays a lack of confidence.

Yet another bare assertion. What damage would a 1 million base pair insertion do when it is in between genes? Scientists removed over 2 million base pairs from the mouse genome with no observable changes in the mice:

"We deleted two large non-coding intervals, 1,511 kilobases and 845 kilobases in length, from the mouse genome. Viable mice homozygous for the deletions were generated and were indistinguishable from wild-type littermates with regard to morphology, reproductive fitness, growth, longevity and a variety of parameters assaying general homeostasis."
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7011/full/nature03022.html

How do you explain that?
 
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mark kennedy

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35 million substitutions dwarfs 5 million indels. Again, a 10 base indel does not count as 10 mutations.

I never said they did, and there is no way mutations millions of base pairs long don't kill the host.



WHERE???????

Pick a chromosome ANY CHROMOSOME!!!!

Human Genome Landmark Poster

What are the deleterious effects being caused by the 40 million mutations that separate chimps and humans?

Those are not mutations, those are differences. The deleterious effects aren't there because the mutations never happened.

Why can't there be 53 de novo proteins while chimps and humans still share the amount of DNA described in the chimp genome paper?

Why can't we ever discuss the cause before you argue the effect in circles?

Why can't a 2% difference in genes produce gross structural changes? Why aren't those gross structural changes causing deleterious effects?

What makes you think asking rhetorical questions in circles is an argument? Those gross structural changes are actually differences and independent lineage goes back to creation. Calling them mutations doesn't make them possible by mutations.

The processes are mutation and selection, and they occur because individuals who are more fit pass on their genes at a higher rate than those who are less fit. It's called evolution.

There you go, equivocating Darwinism with evolution again. It would not be so tedious if it were not at every major transition and most of the minor ones.

Also, why aren't those changes deleterious? You keep claiming that they have to be deleterious, yet here humans are doing just fine with those changes. How do you explain that?

Their not the result of mutations or changes, they were separately created. You really think your cleaver enough to get me to argue against my own position, or you think I'm that stupid.

Yet another bare assertion. What damage would a 1 million base pair insertion do when it is in between genes? Scientists removed over 2 million base pairs from the mouse genome with no observable changes in the mice:

"We deleted two large non-coding intervals, 1,511 kilobases and 845 kilobases in length, from the mouse genome. Viable mice homozygous for the deletions were generated and were indistinguishable from wild-type littermates with regard to morphology, reproductive fitness, growth, longevity and a variety of parameters assaying general homeostasis."
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7011/full/nature03022.html

How do you explain that?

They targeted and deleted gene deserts, that's not the same thing as inserting/deleting coding sequences at random which is how it would happen in nature. For one thing the source of an insertion a million base pairs long is puzzling enough but multiple indels millions of base pairs long and an abundance of indels 300 base pairs long would be devastating.

All you do is bare assertion, you got a nerve accusing me of it. I especially liked the part where you tried to get me to argue against my own position. Scraping the bottom of the barrel again I see.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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VirOptimus

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I never said they did, and there is no way mutations millions of base pairs long don't kill the host.





Pick a chromosome ANY CHROMOSOME!!!!

Human Genome Landmark Poster



Those are not mutations, those are differences. The deleterious effects aren't there because the mutations never happened.



Why can't we ever discuss the cause before you argue the effect in circles?



What makes you think asking rhetorical questions in circles is an argument? Those gross structural changes are actually differences and independent lineage goes back to creation. Calling them mutations doesn't make them possible by mutations.



There you go, equivocating Darwinism with evolution again. It would not be so tedious if it were not at every major transition and most of the minor ones.



Their not the result of mutations or changes, they were separately created. You really think your cleaver enough to get me to argue against my own position, or you think I'm that stupid.

Yet another bare assertion. What damage would a 1 million base pair insertion do when it is in between genes? Scientists removed over 2 million base pairs from the mouse genome with no observable changes in the mice:

"We deleted two large non-coding intervals, 1,511 kilobases and 845 kilobases in length, from the mouse genome. Viable mice homozygous for the deletions were generated and were indistinguishable from wild-type littermates with regard to morphology, reproductive fitness, growth, longevity and a variety of parameters assaying general homeostasis."
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7011/full/nature03022.html

How do you explain that?

They targeted and deleted gene deserts, that's not the same thing as inserting/deleting coding sequences at random which is how it would happen in nature. For one thing the source of an insertion a million base pairs long is puzzling enough but multiple indels millions of base pairs long and an abundance of indels 300 base pairs long would be devastating.

All you do is bare assertion, you got a never accusing me of it. I especially liked the part where you tried to get me to argue against my own position. Scraping the bottom of the barrel again I see.

Have a nice day :)
Mark

How far are you on your paper? Ready for peer review yet?
 
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I never said they did,

You said it right here:

"Yet the 3% to 4% from indels dwarfs the 1% from substitutions."--mark kennedy

5 million is not 3-4 times 35 million. It is 1/6th of 35 million. When you are calculating the per nucleotide divergence rate you are counting the number of mutations, and going from 35 million mutations to 40 million mutations is not 1% to suddenly 3-4%.

And there is no way mutations millions of base pairs long don't kill the host.

Yet another bare assertion.

Pick a chromosome ANY CHROMOSOME!!!!

Human Genome Landmark Poster

Go ahead. Show me how a 1 million base pair insertion in intergenic regions will be lethal. Your claim. Your burden of proof.

Those are not mutations, those are differences.

Same thing.

Are you really telling me if God causes a change in DNA then the result will not be deleterious, but if random mutations cause that same mutation then it will be deleterious? How does that add up?

If mutations can't change any genes whatsoever without causing deleterious effects, then how can a deity change DNA without it also being deleterious?

Why can't we ever discuss the cause before you argue the effect in circles?

Why won't you address the causes that I present?

What makes you think asking rhetorical questions in circles is an argument? Those gross structural changes are actually differences and independent lineage goes back to creation. Calling them mutations doesn't make them possible by mutations.

How are they not possible?

There you go, equivocating Darwinism with evolution again. It would not be so tedious if it were not at every major transition and most of the minor ones.

There you go inventing excuses for not addressing what I post, and instead arguing pedantic points and semantics.

Their not the result of mutations or changes, they were separately created. You really think your cleaver enough to get me to argue against my own position, or you think I'm that stupid.

WHY WOULD THAT MATTER?

Let's start with this sequence:

AAAGGCGGAGAAAAG

A random and lethal mutation occurs at the base in red:

AAAGGGGGAGAAAAG

If God changed that same base in the same way, would it also be lethal?

They targeted and deleted gene deserts, that's not the same thing as inserting/deleting coding sequences at random which is how it would happen in nature.

Why wouldn't random indels happen in gene deserts?

For one thing the source of an insertion a million base pairs long is puzzling enough but multiple indels millions of base pairs long and an abundance of indels 300 base pairs long would be devastating.

Yet another bare assertion.
 
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mark kennedy

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You said it right here:

"Yet the 3% to 4% from indels dwarfs the 1% from substitutions."--mark kennedy

That is a reference to the size not the frequency and you know it. This keeps happening because you lack the courage of you convictions. to say nothing of the substance.

5 million is not 3-4 times 35 million. It is 1/6th of 35 million. When you are calculating the per nucleotide divergence rate you are counting the number of mutations, and going from 35 million mutations to 40 million mutations is not 1% to suddenly 3-4%.

Not suddenly, explicitly in the Chimpanzee genome paper it say 90 million base pairs that 'dwarfs' the 1,23% from single base substitutions but you already know that. See when I call someone a liar I use three points of proof. The truth which is that the differences attributed to indels comes to between 3% and 4%. The lie that I'm saying every base pair is a single mutation. Then the clear intent demonstrated by The fact that I have shown you this for years. You may not understand what your saying because this is a rehash of Steve's point that the mutation rate does not change with the length of the mutation. The obvious problem is that the effect does. Something you refuse to honestly admit assuming you even understand what you are saying which is doubtfull



Yet another bare assertion.



Go ahead. Show me how a 1 million base pair insertion in intergenic regions will be lethal. Your claim. Your burden of proof.



Same thing.

Are you really telling me if God causes a change in DNA then the result will not be deleterious, but if random mutations cause that same mutation then it will be deleterious? How does that add up?

If mutations can't change any genes whatsoever without causing deleterious effects, then how can a deity change DNA without it also being deleterious?



Why won't you address the causes that I present?



How are they not possible?



There you go inventing excuses for not addressing what I post, and instead arguing pedantic points and semantics.



WHY WOULD THAT MATTER?

Let's start with this sequence:

AAAGGCGGAGAAAAG

A random and lethal mutation occurs at the base in red:

AAAGGGGGAGAAAAG

If God changed that same base in the same way, would it also be lethal?



Why wouldn't random indels happen in gene deserts?



Yet another bare assertion.
You said it right here:

"Yet the 3% to 4% from indels dwarfs the 1% from substitutions."--mark kennedy

5 million is not 3-4 times 35 million. It is 1/6th of 35 million. When you are calculating the per nucleotide divergence rate you are counting the number of mutations, and going from 35 million mutations to 40 million mutations is not 1% to suddenly 3-4%.



Yet another bare assertion.



Go ahead. Show me how a 1 million base pair insertion in intergenic regions will be lethal. Your claim. Your burden of proof.



Same thing.

Are you really telling me if God causes a change in DNA then the result will not be deleterious, but if random mutations cause that same mutation then it will be deleterious? How does that add up?

If mutations can't change any genes whatsoever without causing deleterious effects, then how can a deity change DNA without it also being deleterious?



Why won't you address the causes that I present?



How are they not possible?



There you go inventing excuses for not addressing what I post, and instead arguing pedantic points and semantics.



WHY WOULD THAT MATTER?

Let's start with this sequence:

AAAGGCGGAGAAAAG

A random and lethal mutation occurs at the base in red:

AAAGGGGGAGAAAAG

If God changed that same base in the same way, would it also be lethal?



Why wouldn't random indels happen in gene deserts?



Yet another bare assertion.
I'm not chasing this Straw man around the mullberry bush with you. First of all I'm not that stupid and secondly you either know better or your incapable of understanding this. Either way I refuse to let you waste my time with it.
 
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That is a reference to the size not the frequency and you know it.

Precisely. The paper you keep citing is referring to the frequency of mutations, not the size of the mutations. When they are calculating the per nucleotide divergence rates, they are looking at the number of mutations.

I'm not chasing this Straw man around the mullberry bush with you. First of all I'm not that stupid and secondly you either know better or your incapable of understanding this. Either way I refuse to let you waste my time with it.

If you can't address what I wrote, then it is you who doesn't understand the material. For example . . .

Let's start with this sequence:

AAAGGCGGAGAAAAG

A random and lethal mutation occurs at the base in red:

AAAGGGGGAGAAAAG

If God changed that same base in the same way, would it also be lethal?
 
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Which leaves out the possibility that God creating life is a possibility. A long way to go to avoid the obvious.
It's equally as obvious as the possibility that Vishnu created life. Both your God and Vishnu (and quite a few more deities from quite a few more religions in lively practice today) have as much non-evidential support (holy texts, creation myth, followers, etc.) as each other. Why is there a special pass for your version of your religion's God? How do we know the inserted God you want is the correctly reasoned God to insert here?
Which leaves one to wonder, works for what exactly?
Take your Pick. Medicine, Cosmology, Geology, Nuclear Physics, Quantum Mechanics, Biology, (Bio)Chemistry, Paleontology, just to name a few. There really isn't a field that Science hasn't had an effect in. Everything you use today has been improved by Science and the Scientific Method. Ironically, you use Computers, our understanding of Quantum mechanics derived nearly entirely via the Scientific Method has allowed computers & cell phones to connect you with the rest of the World's population almost instantaneously, yet we really don't understand Quantum Theory - the basis of which just wouldn't work if you were to use "common sense" understanding/presuppositions.
Or those changes can be cyclical, the obvious seems to be oblivious to you.
...says the pot calling the silverware black... If an advantage in an organism getting to reproduce (i.e. can run faster to catch food, or is stronger to fight of other potential mate competition, or a simple resistance to a debilitating disease) can be passed on, then chances are, that mutation will fixate in the population. Meanwhile, another beneficial change somewhere else in the organisms genome becomes advantageous in a different way, then it has a better than average chance to fixate in the population - so on and so forth... the obvious seems to be oblivious to you too
China hasn't benefited from Creationist thinking, that's absurd. They abandoned theistic reasoning long ago and haven't benefited in the slightest.
It has. That you're in denial about it probably isn't all that surprising. Perhaps it doesn't have anything to do with the US gimping itself with lack of Science Education, but here's some concordant data for the past 40 to 70 years for both economies...:
Actual | Previous | Highest | Lowest | Dates | Unit Frequency |
1.20 | 1.60 | 13.40 | -4.10 | 1948 - 2016 percent | Quarterly |
The United States is the world’s largest economy. Yet, in the last two decades, like in the case of many other developed nations, its growth rates have been decreasing. If in the 50’s and 60’s the average growth rate was above 4 percent, in the 70’s and 80’s dropped to around 3 percent. In the last ten years, the average rate has been below 2 percent and since the second quarter of 2000 has never reached the 5 percent level. This page provides the latest reported value for - United States GDP Annual Growth Rate - plus previous releases, historical high and low, short-term forecast and long-term prediction, economic calendar, survey consensus and news. United States GDP Annual Growth Rate - actual data, historical chart and calendar of releases - was last updated on August of 2016.
Source: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth-annual
Then on China:
Actual | Previous | Highest | Lowest | Dates | Unit Frequency
6.70 | 6.70 | 15.40 | 3.80 | 1989 - 2016 percent | Quarterly
In China, Gross Domestic Product is divided by three sectors: Primary, Secondary and Tertiary. The Primary Industry includes Farming, Forestry, Animal Husbandry, and Fishery and accounts for around 9 percent of GDP. The Secondary sector, which includes Industry (40 percent of GDP) and Construction (9 percent of GDP) is the most important. The Tertiary sector accounts for the remaining 44 percent of total output and consist of Wholesale and Retail Trades; Transport, Storage, and Post; Financial Intermediation; Real Estate; Hotel and Catering Services and Others. This page provides - China GDP Annual Growth Rate - actual values, historical data, forecast, chart, statistics, economic calendar and news. China GDP Annual Growth Rate - actual data, historical chart and calendar of releases - was last updated on August of 2016.
Source: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/gdp-growth-annual

In summary, Regardless the reason, China is mowing the US down in short order. Whether it be because they've embraced Science and the Scientific Endeavours while the US has mostly shortened their Science opportunities, or not, it largely coincides with the religious zealotry invading areas of American Society not related to religion (Science, Politics, Medicine, etc.). Literally the ONLY Reason that the US is competitive right now, is because of the Massive head start you had during the Industrial Revolution. Many of your Scientific Leaders have already recognised the onslaught, I can't find it now however there as also a video made by Neil Degrass-Tyson where he showed the economic advantage shown in Patent registrations (early 20th Century, almost all American, some European, to late 20th & into 21st Century where Europe, India and China are literally Swamping the US in Patent registrations and monetizing)
The Bible is a stand alone historical narrative as well as other things. I really don't know what you meant by this particular rant and I'm not sure you did either.

So now you descend from incoherent to incomprehensible.
I'm not sure how you can say these things straight after each other. The Bible is as much a stand alone historical narrative as any other holy text from any other religion. Again, that Tyr still stands and still has a population of people living there prove the inaccuracy of the Bible and its prophecy that King Nebuchadnezzar was going to ransack the joint to the ground, never to be resurrected as more than a place to lay fishing nets. It's demonstrably false!

Should I be surprised you find this incomprehensible?
Almost something here to wrap you mind around but salvation is exclusively a theistic topic. God being first cause isn't subject to the whims and caprices of the skeptics. God being the transcendent first cause does not go away because you choose to dismiss faith. Inductive and deductive approaches to truth are not mutually exclusive, you must realize that reason is far larger then inductive, empirical testing.
There's still no evidence that your God exists. What outsider test can you perform on your religion/religious text that cannot be used on any other holy text by their faithful to verify the authenticity of it? How do you know the God you believe in is the right one? I can find millions of religious folks of all faiths who have personal revelation from their god(s) of choice. Why is yours different?
Then if God acts in time and space science is incompetent? That make sense to me so how would that negate God as cause of life on earth? If God did actually create life then let's not pretend science is the arbitrator of the reality of God, just respect the limits. A miracle isn't meaningless if it actually happens.
If a miracle happened, we could measure it. If someone was to be cured of Cancer, we can evaluate this against their medical records and x-rays for example. If praying someone back to health worked, then we could find a statistically significant correlation in hospital records. (this last one has been done btw, praying not only didn't help, but was almost statistically proven to be worse for the person prayed for... Layman article on results: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?_r=0 )
Sure, why not?
Then Changes can accumulate, and this is what we find happens in organisms all the time, proving evolution is actually a thing. :)
Still begging the question of proof. You keep saying science as if you bothered to define the term. Your arguing around the real issues. If science isn't able to discern a miracle and a miracle happens how is that confirmed?
See above regarding my notes on the efficacy of Prayer - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficacy_of_prayer for more info - Science can measure anything that has an effect here in this Universe. Prayer as an example has no discernible effect in general. Where studies have had results, the best results (still statistically unreliable though) actually come from non abrahamic religions!! I then have to go back & ask, how do you know you're praying to the right God?

:D
I enjoyed that, especially the part where you managed to include personal experience. I just don't get how you can equivocate all those pagan inferences that are not represented in Christian theism. Rambling at best but if you could focus on what we are talking about it would be helpful.
The very mechanisms that would allow someone to accept your religion to be true (6,000 year old flat earth, dirt man, Talking snakes, magic fruit eating rib woman, Taking Donkeys, two of every animal on the planet packed into an ark for a year, 3 witnesses recording 3 different last words from Jesus dying on the cross, Jewish Zombies), leaves the door open for each and every mockery deserving belief I stated there. You have People in positions of Power imposing stupid decisions on other people of other faiths (or no faith at all) because their personal religion says so. If these people believe for exaple that the Earth is 6,000 years old, then their ability to contribute to their society through many areas of science is intantly gimped.

Creation Scientists are a Screaming example of this. Some of them even have legitimate degrees but they don't contribute anything to the GDP of the Nation, choosing instead to generally take up roles in science stymieing organizations trying to poke holes in actual scientific progress. They don't do any research & don't register patents on the results of their (cough) research, etc. They're nearly entirely funded by donations from other Christians (usually mom & pop families who generally need the money themselves), supplemented by book sales of anti-science propaganda.
There is no witness of pagan gods doing something, those religious systems have faded into history. Galileo was a devout Christian and a strong Catholic who won a scientific argument to be broad sided with a theologically contrived argument. I don't know what to tell you about Pasteur, he did manage to take the legs out of abiogenesis but it does seem to manage to dress itself up as science in the form of Darwinism. What the Wright brothers have to do with it is a mystery perhaps even you don't have a clue about.
Actually, you can still find people worshipping these Roman and Greek Gods. And again, because the reasons said Gods existed, were inevitably found to be of explainable phenomenon, and no longer deserving of worship. Galileo still spent decades of his life incarcerated because of his "blasphemy" against the Church with his verifiable scientific observations. Abiogenesis is still unsolved although a number of plausible pathways have been identified and are being investigated, not sure what legs you're talking about there. Not sure what "Darwinism" is, that's not actually a thing. The Wright brothers highlight the Church's propensity to interfere with progress for fear of losing followers - that Man could possibly soar higher than Birds, (let alone fly at all) was a big concern for the Church that God's dominion might be inadvertently challenged.
We are not good we are golden. Science can makes it's determination of observations based on natural phenomenon but when it comes to the first cause they are going to have to stop. It's Darwinism that wanders from beyond the limits of science and that is the whole problem.
I don't see any reason to stop doing Science. Whatever Darwinism is, I don't think it's of any real concern, as long as it follows the scientific method. While Darwin was groundbreaking for the underpinnings of Evolution by Natural Selection, we've learned a massive amount more, refining this idea each and every step of the way.
Then Science should only investigate nature and stop making claims to have disproved a miraculous creation it doesn't have the ability to even address.

I would address the rest of the post but it's a bit rambling. Thanks for sharing your thoughts but I'm into a bit more evidencal and detailed discussion. All this talk about what science is, and it doesn't have anything scientific in it. How on earth is that even possible?
Where has Science of any type disproved a miraculous creation? If we don't know, then we don't know. We'll keep investigating though... As for being into more evidential & detailed discussion, What evidence are you talking about??
Have a nice day :)
Mark
:D
So why don't you answer my questions then? As a reminder: If your Christian Conviction isn't reliant on Science, then why on earth do you spend so much effort scientifically bashing square pegs into a round holes around here? it certainly doesn't seem like you trust the scientific community (you know, the one with hundreds of thousands of professional scientists who've each studied the subject matter intently at a University full-time for several years) and their findings borne of their research...

Also, do you believe Newton to be Jesus reincarnated?

More also, Do you admit there's no way the Supernatural can be incorporated into the Scientific Method and still keep it sane? If you think so, then how would you do it? Give me an example.

For reference, this is what I said last time, do you agree?: There's nothing gained in Science by including talk of the Supernatural and in fact, the Scientific Method would effectively become useless the very moment you incorporate the Supernatural. All inquiry stops at that point. Even though it isn't you and I standing around in Lab Coats, there's plenty who are, and this is exactly the problem they'd have trying to invoke the Supernatural as a causal agent. Creationist never get this, which is likely why they see no issue changing state education standards to include their favorite religion in the Science curriculum. It's the death knell for actual Science, and it will have a lasting impact the moment they succeed.
 
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It's equally as obvious as the possibility that Vishnu created life. Both your God and Vishnu (and quite a few more deities from quite a few more religions in lively practice today) have as much non-evidential support (holy texts, creation myth, followers, etc.) as each other. Why is there a special pass for your version of your religion's God? How do we know the inserted God you want is the correctly reasoned God to insert here?

Hinduism is mysticism, polytheism is generally inspired by a personification of nature, that hold true for all pagan belief systems. That include Darwinism, including Erasmus Darwin, Charles Darwin's grandfather:

"ORGANIC LIFE beneath the shoreless waves
Was born and nurs'd in Ocean's pearly caves;
First forms minute, unseen by spheric glass,
Move on the mud, or pierce the watery mass;
These, as successive generations bloom
New powers acquire, and larger limbs assume;
Whence countless groups of vegetation spring,
And breathing realms of fin, and feet, and wing.
(The Temple of Nature By Erasmus Darwin)
The mythographers are Darwinian, history is not something that you get to make up as you go along.

...says the pot calling the silverware black... If an advantage in an organism getting to reproduce (i.e. can run faster to catch food, or is stronger to fight of other potential mate competition, or a simple resistance to a debilitating disease) can be passed on, then chances are, that mutation will fixate in the population. Meanwhile, another beneficial change somewhere else in the organisms genome becomes advantageous in a different way, then it has a better than average chance to fixate in the population - so on and so forth... the obvious seems to be oblivious to you too

That's just something you are making up as you go along.

Among the mutations that affect a typical gene, different kinds produce different impacts. A very few are at least momentarily adaptive on an evolutionary scale. Many are deleterious. (Rates of Spontaneous Mutations, Genetics 1998)
There's that mantra of mutation plus selection out there being the cause of everything and doing nothing. Beneficial effects from mutations are very rare and them going on to fixation is an even steeper climb. That whole rant is based on a fundamental misconception about what a mutation actually is:

In the living cell, DNA undergoes frequent chemical change, especially when it is being replicated (in S phase of the eukaryotic cell cycle). Most of these changes are quickly repaired. Those that are not result in a mutation. Thus, mutation is a failure of DNA repair. Mutations

We know from genetic research and medical science what mutations do.

Single-base substitutions result in Missense mutations like cystic fibrosis, Nonsense mutations, Silent mutations, Splice-site mutations. Indels are when extra base pairs may be added (insertions) or removed (deletions) from the DNA of a gene. The insertion of many copies of the same triplet of nucleotides. Huntington's disease and the fragile X syndrome. Muscular Dystrophy. Other indels cause Lou Gehrig's disease. Mutations

That's your explanation for the adaptive evolution of all life on this planet over three billion years. Copy errors that when they have an effect it is deleterious, producing disease and disorder on an epic scale. That' not how adaptive evolution works, anyone who knows basic biology knows mutations are the opposite of how beneficial traits are passed from one generation to the next.

It has. That you're in denial about it probably isn't all that surprising. Perhaps it doesn't have anything to do with the US gimping itself with lack of Science Education, but here's some concordant data for the past 40 to 70 years for both economies...:

Well yea, when Darwinism dominates the educational system real world science is suppressed. Of course it's been on the decline. Darwinism has always had this effect on science, it gutted Soviet biology for half a century:

They were not receiving Western journals. And Western ideas were considered bourgeois, erroneous and that they had to be abandoned, including - and this is what shocked Monod - 50 years of genetics. So this - there was a public announcement in the Soviet Union that Mendelian genetics, the genetics of Gregor Mendel and the chromosomal theories of genetics...It gutted Soviet biology, I would say, really, since that time; that Soviet biology never really recovered from this long episode of genetics being suppressed in the Soviet Union. And it had disastrous consequences for Soviet agriculture and Chinese agriculture because China adopted the same sort of ideological approach to agriculture and had miserable crop failures and famines in the 1950s. So, you know, sounds like a bizarre academic, you know, point, but it had profound consequences.( 'Brave Genius': A Tale of Two Nobelists NPR)
Darwinism has a deleterious effect on science, it has a long track record on this account. It's long been the basis of eugenics, something about American legal precedent the Nazis cited as justification for their eugenics programs:

Three generations of imbeciles are enough." This decision opened the floodgates for thousands to be coercively sterilized or otherwise persecuted as subhuman. Years later, the Nazis at the Nuremberg trials quoted Holmes's words in their own defense...In Mein Kampf, published in 1924, Hitler quoted American eugenic ideology and openly displayed a thorough knowledge of American eugenics. "There is today one state," wrote Hitler, "in which at least weak beginnings toward a better conception [of immigration] are noticeable. Of course, it is not our model German Republic, but the United States." HNN article

In summary, Regardless the reason, China is mowing the US down in short order. Whether it be because they've embraced Science and the Scientific Endeavours while the US has mostly shortened their Science opportunities, or not, it largely coincides with the religious zealotry invading areas of American Society not related to religion (Science, Politics, Medicine, etc.). Literally the ONLY Reason that the US is competitive right now, is because of the Massive head start you had during the Industrial Revolution. Many of your Scientific Leaders have already recognised the onslaught, I can't find it now however there as also a video made by Neil Degrass-Tyson where he showed the economic advantage shown in Patent registrations (early 20th Century, almost all American, some European, to late 20th & into 21st Century where Europe, India and China are literally Swamping the US in Patent registrations and monetizing)

The reason the US is competitive is trade, we have the largest capacity and a long history trading with Europe. Between Europe and the United States we trade more then the rest of the world combined. Nixon opened normal trade relations with China after years of isolation had devastated communist China, which resulted from atheistic and Darwinian China suppressing influences from the west. Freedom of religion is our first right as Americans and there is a reason for this, the early United State were profoundly religious.

The founding of the United States was sandwiched in between two profondly Christian social and cultural movements. The Great Awakening (1730-1760) was briefly interrupted by the drama leading up to the war for independence that culminated in the ratification of the Constitution in 1789. This was followed by what has come to be known as the Second Great Awakening (1790-1840).
The Great Awakening
The Second Great Awakening

I'm not sure how you can say these things straight after each other. The Bible is as much a stand alone historical narrative as any other holy text from any other religion. Again, that Tyr still stands and still has a population of people living there prove the inaccuracy of the Bible and its prophecy that King Nebuchadnezzar was going to ransack the joint to the ground, never to be resurrected as more than a place to lay fishing nets. It's demonstrably false!

The Scriptures are the best preserved living history in the history of the world, there is no close second. The Scriptures have been in the custody of living people it's entire history, the Hebrew and Christian communities respectively. The other religious systems of the ancient world are relics of dead religions written in dead languages from long dead nations. What is more the Pentateuch is clearly written as historical narrative with a living legacy that has preserved it's national identify, language, blood line and religion becoming again in the twentieth century a nation again after being dispossessed of the land for 2000 years. The nation of Israel and the meticulous preservation of the Old Testament is unparalleled both as a living witness and a viable source of a true and vibrant history.

Should I be surprised you find this incomprehensible?

I understand perfectly fine, I just disagree.

There's still no evidence that your God exists. What outsider test can you perform on your religion/religious text that cannot be used on any other holy text by their faithful to verify the authenticity of it? How do you know the God you believe in is the right one? I can find millions of religious folks of all faiths who have personal revelation from their god(s) of choice. Why is yours different?

First of all God is self existing and self evident, you do have evidence of God's existence but people suppress the truth in unrighteousness:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. (Romans 1:18-23)
You equivocate mutations with adaptive evolution and faith in the true and living God which is a profoundly fallacious logic. Rambling and contentious the substantive element in your arguments is as elusive as chasing ghosts in the fog. You point isn't elusive, it's illusory.

If a miracle happened, we could measure it. If someone was to be cured of Cancer, we can evaluate this against their medical records and x-rays for example. If praying someone back to health worked, then we could find a statistically significant correlation in hospital records. (this last one has been done btw, praying not only didn't help, but was almost statistically proven to be worse for the person prayed for... Layman article on results: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?_r=0 )

There have been miracles, the problem is the people suppress the truth in unrighteousness:

"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'" (Luke 16:31)​

Then Changes can accumulate, and this is what we find happens in organisms all the time, proving evolution is actually a thing. :)

Evolution is the change of alleles in populations over time. Darwinism is the apriori assumption of universal common descent by exclusively naturalistic means going back to and including the Big Bang. Don't equivocate the two.

The very mechanisms that would allow someone to accept your religion to be true (6,000 year old flat earth, dirt man, Talking snakes, magic fruit eating rib woman, Taking Donkeys, two of every animal on the planet packed into an ark for a year, 3 witnesses recording 3 different last words from Jesus dying on the cross, Jewish Zombies), leaves the door open for each and every mockery deserving belief I stated there. You have People in positions of Power imposing stupid decisions on other people of other faiths (or no faith at all) because their personal religion says so. If these people believe for exaple that the Earth is 6,000 years old, then their ability to contribute to their society through many areas of science is intantly gimped.

Rambling satire isn't science and cannot be mistaken for a philosophy of history. The age of the earth is irrelevant to the doctrine of creation, all we know about the creation of the universe and the sphere we inhabit is that it was in the beginning. The creation of life in general and man in particular is another matter entirely. We have been gimped by arguments of science, falsely so called. Darwinism has wrapped itself around science like a boa constrictor, the same predatory mentality has been deleterious in legal, political and social settings where it has been allowed to control.

Creation Scientists are a Screaming example of this. Some of them even have legitimate degrees but they don't contribute anything to the GDP of the Nation, choosing instead to generally take up roles in science stymieing organizations trying to poke holes in actual scientific progress. They don't do any research & don't register patents on the results of their (cough) research, etc. They're nearly entirely funded by donations from other Christians (usually mom & pop families who generally need the money themselves), supplemented by book sales of anti-science propaganda.

Creationism is ministry oriented and as such is supported by the free will offerings of it's supporters. This is a perfectly legitimate free exercise of religion that has not the slightest influence or effect on science, in the proper sense of that word. What Creationism is opposed to is the atheistic materialism known as Darwinism which if it has to stand or fall on it's own merits would drift aimlessly into the long line of the pagan mythologies that proceeded it.

Actually, you can still find people worshipping these Roman and Greek Gods. And again, because the reasons said Gods existed, were inevitably found to be of explainable phenomenon, and no longer deserving of worship. Galileo still spent decades of his life incarcerated because of his "blasphemy" against the Church with his verifiable scientific observations.

Galileo was in his eighties when he was called to the Inquisition, he was put under house arrest in a mansion.For at least a hundred years attempts were made to modernize Aristotelian mechanics but Galileo argued that it should be scraped. Mind you, he was a devout Catholic and wouldn't dream of disparaging Aristotelian ethics or metaphysics. Still, when the professors at Piza couldn't refute him he ended up at the Inquisition. His argument still holds true, the Bible tells us how to get to heaven, not how the heavens work. Science is about tools, mental and physical and it was not invented overnight during the Scientific Revolution. The accomplishments of the past were not swept away by the development of physics and the principles of motion, they built on Euclidean geometry, they didn't replace it. Great things came from the Scientific Revolution, Algebra and Calculus, telescopes and microscopes, the deductive approach of Aristotelian scholasticism inverted into an inductive approach to natural phenomenon.

As usual a Darwinian wants to write satire about things he knows nothing about, typical.

Abiogenesis is still unsolved although a number of plausible pathways have been identified and are being investigated, not sure what legs you're talking about there. Not sure what "Darwinism" is, that's not actually a thing.

Oh it's a thing, defined by Darwin himself:

all change in the organic, as well as in the inorganic world, being the result of law, and not of miraculous interposition. (Darwin, On the Origin of Species)
It's not a science, it's a presupposition. The a priori assumption of universal common descent by exclusively naturalistic means going all the way back to and including the Big Bang.

I don't see any reason to stop doing Science. Whatever Darwinism is, I don't think it's of any real concern, as long as it follows the scientific method. While Darwin was groundbreaking for the underpinnings of Evolution by Natural Selection, we've learned a massive amount more, refining this idea each and every step of the way.

Darwinism never follows scientific method, that's absurd. It's a philosophy of natural history that permeates and predicates anything the empirical process produces. It was blended with modern genetics in a philosophical effort produced by Ivy League and European elitists in the Modern Synthesis. Are you really going to defend a philosophy you know so little about?

Where has Science of any type disproved a miraculous creation? If we don't know, then we don't know. We'll keep investigating though... As for being into more evidential & detailed discussion, What evidence are you talking about??

Indirectly, my favorite approach is comparative genomics. I do have evidential arguments but getting you through the background sounds like a long process. You want to defend science from religion when you know very little about either and could care less.

Getting bored with fish in the barrel, see you again when you recycle your satirical ramblings.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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VirOptimus

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Hinduism is mysticism, polytheism is generally inspired by a personification of nature, that hold true for all pagan belief systems. That include Darwinism, including Erasmus Darwin, Charles Darwin's grandfather:

"ORGANIC LIFE beneath the shoreless waves
Was born and nurs'd in Ocean's pearly caves;
First forms minute, unseen by spheric glass,
Move on the mud, or pierce the watery mass;
These, as successive generations bloom
New powers acquire, and larger limbs assume;
Whence countless groups of vegetation spring,
And breathing realms of fin, and feet, and wing.
(The Temple of Nature By Erasmus Darwin)
The mythographers are Darwinian, history is not something that you get to make up as you go along.



That's just something you are making up as you go along.

Among the mutations that affect a typical gene, different kinds produce different impacts. A very few are at least momentarily adaptive on an evolutionary scale. Many are deleterious. (Rates of Spontaneous Mutations, Genetics 1998)
There's that mantra of mutation plus selection out there being the cause of everything and doing nothing. Beneficial effects from mutations are very rare and them going on to fixation is an even steeper climb. That whole rant is based on a fundamental misconception about what a mutation actually is:

In the living cell, DNA undergoes frequent chemical change, especially when it is being replicated (in S phase of the eukaryotic cell cycle). Most of these changes are quickly repaired. Those that are not result in a mutation. Thus, mutation is a failure of DNA repair. Mutations

We know from genetic research and medical science what mutations do.

Single-base substitutions result in Missense mutations like cystic fibrosis, Nonsense mutations, Silent mutations, Splice-site mutations. Indels are when extra base pairs may be added (insertions) or removed (deletions) from the DNA of a gene. The insertion of many copies of the same triplet of nucleotides. Huntington's disease and the fragile X syndrome. Muscular Dystrophy. Other indels cause Lou Gehrig's disease. Mutations

That's your explanation for the adaptive evolution of all life on this planet over three billion years. Copy errors that when they have an effect it is deleterious, producing disease and disorder on an epic scale. That' not how adaptive evolution works, anyone who knows basic biology knows mutations are the opposite of how beneficial traits are passed from one generation to the next.



Well yea, when Darwinism dominates the educational system real world science is suppressed. Of course it's been on the decline. Darwinism has always had this effect on science, it gutted Soviet biology for half a century:

They were not receiving Western journals. And Western ideas were considered bourgeois, erroneous and that they had to be abandoned, including - and this is what shocked Monod - 50 years of genetics. So this - there was a public announcement in the Soviet Union that Mendelian genetics, the genetics of Gregor Mendel and the chromosomal theories of genetics...It gutted Soviet biology, I would say, really, since that time; that Soviet biology never really recovered from this long episode of genetics being suppressed in the Soviet Union. And it had disastrous consequences for Soviet agriculture and Chinese agriculture because China adopted the same sort of ideological approach to agriculture and had miserable crop failures and famines in the 1950s. So, you know, sounds like a bizarre academic, you know, point, but it had profound consequences.( 'Brave Genius': A Tale of Two Nobelists NPR)
Darwinism has a deleterious effect on science, it has a long track record on this account. It's long been the basis of eugenics, something about American legal precedent the Nazis cited as justification for their eugenics programs:

Three generations of imbeciles are enough." This decision opened the floodgates for thousands to be coercively sterilized or otherwise persecuted as subhuman. Years later, the Nazis at the Nuremberg trials quoted Holmes's words in their own defense...In Mein Kampf, published in 1924, Hitler quoted American eugenic ideology and openly displayed a thorough knowledge of American eugenics. "There is today one state," wrote Hitler, "in which at least weak beginnings toward a better conception [of immigration] are noticeable. Of course, it is not our model German Republic, but the United States." HNN article



The reason the US is competitive is trade, we have the largest capacity and a long history trading with Europe. Between Europe and the United States we trade more then the rest of the world combined. Nixon opened normal trade relations with China after years of isolation had devastated communist China, which resulted from atheistic and Darwinian China suppressing influences from the west. Freedom of religion is our first right as Americans and there is a reason for this, the early United State were profoundly religious.

The founding of the United States was sandwiched in between two profondly Christian social and cultural movements. The Great Awakening (1730-1760) was briefly interrupted by the drama leading up to the war for independence that culminated in the ratification of the Constitution in 1789. This was followed by what has come to be known as the Second Great Awakening (1790-1840).
The Great Awakening
The Second Great Awakening



The Scriptures are the best preserved living history in the history of the world, there is no close second. The Scriptures have been in the custody of living people it's entire history, the Hebrew and Christian communities respectively. The other religious systems of the ancient world are relics of dead religions written in dead languages from long dead nations. What is more the Pentateuch is clearly written as historical narrative with a living legacy that has preserved it's national identify, language, blood line and religion becoming again in the twentieth century a nation again after being dispossessed of the land for 2000 years. The nation of Israel and the meticulous preservation of the Old Testament is unparalleled both as a living witness and a viable source of a true and vibrant history.



I understand perfectly fine, I just disagree.



First of all God is self existing and self evident, you do have evidence of God's existence but people suppress the truth in unrighteousness:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. (Romans 1:18-23)
You equivocate mutations with adaptive evolution and faith in the true and living God which is a profoundly fallacious logic. Rambling and contentious the substantive element in your arguments is as elusive as chasing ghosts in the fog. You point isn't elusive, it's illusory.



There have been miracles, the problem is the people suppress the truth in unrighteousness:

"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'" (Luke 16:31)​



Evolution is the change of alleles in populations over time. Darwinism is the apriori assumption of universal common descent by exclusively naturalistic means going back to and including the Big Bang. Don't equivocate the two.



Rambling satire isn't science and cannot be mistaken for a philosophy of history. The age of the earth is irrelevant to the doctrine of creation, all we know about the creation of the universe and the sphere we inhabit is that it was in the beginning. The creation of life in general and man in particular is another matter entirely. We have been gimped by arguments of science, falsely so called. Darwinism has wrapped itself around science like a boa constrictor, the same predatory mentality has been deleterious in legal, political and social settings where it has been allowed to control.



Creationism is ministry oriented and as such is supported by the free will offerings of it's supporters. This is a perfectly legitimate free exercise of religion that has not the slightest influence or effect on science, in the proper sense of that word. What Creationism is opposed to is the atheistic materialism known as Darwinism which if it has to stand or fall on it's own merits would drift aimlessly into the long line of the pagan mythologies that proceeded it.



Galileo was in his eighties when he was called to the Inquisition, he was put under house arrest in a mansion.For at least a hundred years attempts were made to modernize Aristotelian mechanics but Galileo argued that it should be scraped. Mind you, he was a devout Catholic and wouldn't dream of disparaging Aristotelian ethics or metaphysics. Still, when the professors at Piza couldn't refute him he ended up at the Inquisition. His argument still holds true, the Bible tells us how to get to heaven, not how the heavens work. Science is about tools, mental and physical and it was not invented overnight during the Scientific Revolution. The accomplishments of the past were not swept away by the development of physics and the principles of motion, they built on Euclidean geometry, they didn't replace it. Great things came from the Scientific Revolution, Algebra and Calculus, telescopes and microscopes, the deductive approach of Aristotelian scholasticism inverted into an inductive approach to natural phenomenon.

As usual a Darwinian wants to write satire about things he knows nothing about, typical.



Oh it's a thing, defined by Darwin himself:

all change in the organic, as well as in the inorganic world, being the result of law, and not of miraculous interposition. (Darwin, On the Origin of Species)
It's not a science, it's a presupposition. The a priori assumption of universal common descent by exclusively naturalistic means going all the way back to and including the Big Bang.



Darwinism never follows scientific method, that's absurd. It's a philosophy of natural history that permeates and predicates anything the empirical process produces. It was blended with modern genetics in a philosophical effort produced by Ivy League and European elitists in the Modern Synthesis. Are you really going to defend a philosophy you know so little about?



Indirectly, my favorite approach is comparative genomics. I do have evidential arguments but getting you through the background sounds like a long process. You want to defend science from religion when you know very little about either and could care less.

Getting bored with fish in the barrel, see you again when you recycle your satirical ramblings.

Have a nice day :)
Mark

Are your paper up for peer-review yet Mark?

Or havent you started on it? If so, why?
 
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