Is the fundamental gap between creationists and non-creationists...

[renniks]

That seems to be how it has always worked--even for Christians.

Proving that men are basically depraved and in need of saving.

 

[renniks]

Personally, I prefer this version, It's rather easy to justify a lot of harm with the phrase, "Well if I was X I would hope someone would love me enough to force me to change my mind."

"If I was gay I would want people to condem me in order to change me and make me Christian." or such.

"If I was a Muslim I would want someone to come to my town and try to forcibly convert me from my heathen ways."

Or any other form of torture or bigotry of harm done in the name of religion.

"Do unto others as you would have them do to you." Could hardly include forced conversions.

 

[renniks]

Love is not a noun. It's something we do. It comes from the Heart.
That your unable to go there speaks volumes of what exactly I've been pointing towards. Namely instead of preaching Love, Christianity now days preaches rules, laws and order.

Love your neighbor as yourself and the rules will take care of themselves. In fact, Jesus said if you do this and love God with all your heart it sums up the law
You won't steal if that's really the case, or lie, or cheat on your spouse, and so on. The problem is, we are basically selfish creatures, so we don't love well left to ourselves.

 

[renniks]

Because we need them. Therefore nature has endowed us with them.

But no one has been able to point to any yet. Certainly not from nature.

 

[renniks]

The standard I generally use for morals is Justice. So for instance, where's the moral justice with all of these billionaires with their mansions and yachts while at the same time the streets are filling up with the homeless?

Again, one man's justice is another man's injustice.

 

[dlamberth]

Again, one man's justice is another man's injustice.

We all know when injustice strikes. It's not something hidden. Even infant children know when something is not just.

 

[dlamberth]

Love your neighbor as yourself and the rules will take care of themselves. In fact, Jesus said if you do this and love God with all your heart it sums up the law

It's impossible to make a person Love themselves, others or even this Creation by rules. The Heart just doesn't work that way. Teachings can point the way, but in the end it's still up to the individual in what they do. But if the Church is not preaching Love...all we end up with IS rules and laws.

You won't steal if that's really the case, or lie, or cheat on your spouse, and so on.

Most people do not do any of those things. Most, regardless of their religious beliefs or not are good people.

The problem is, we are basically selfish creatures, so we don't love well left to ourselves.

So...why not "Preach Love"! The Church would do well to do so.

 

[Astrid]

I'm just reaching the logical conclusion from what you said. If society makes the rules, morality can be anything any society approves of. It's an ever moving target.
Wiping out cities happened in the Bible. It was not among the moral values of Jesus, obviously, who said to love your enemies. God's desires are revealed progressively throughout the book. What was accepted in a world without grace was not accepted AD. Of course many still practice it, even using God's name at times, which only reinforces the Truth that we need rules that aren't negotiable from an supreme authority.

What strikes you as a "logical" conclusion, stated as
a fact about me is in fact a falsehood you made
up about me, aka, bearing false witness.
Excuses only make it worse.
Does your Bible mention the morality of
bearing false witness, and taking no responsibility
for your actions?

Its moral for "god" to direct the destruction of
cities, destroy some himself, send an agent to
murder innocent children, and so on.

And then "Jesus", if he was a man had no
standing, if he was God then there goes
"Objective" morality and in comes the
situation ethics. Relative absolutes.
Looting cities was groovy until one
day it wasnt.

No wonder you cannot give me any example of
absolute morality.

The statement that we "need " rules from a (hypotheticsl)
Supreme authority is aka a "statement of facts not in evidence".

 

[SelfSim]

The statement that we "need " rules from a (hypotheticsl) Supreme authority is aka a "statement of facts not in evidence".

How do I test for 'Supreme authority'?

 

[Astrid]

How do I test for 'Supreme authority'?

Check to see if the policy of taking out a city and killing everyone but the
virgins is OK or not.

 

[SelfSim]

Check to see if the policy of taking out a city and killing everyone but the virgins is OK or not.

Ah .. the Hong Kong way of doing science, then?

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

Ah .. the Hong Kong way of doing science, then?

Not one of your better comments, but ultimately, it is a short term solution to spreading your morality until you run out of virgins and then we go back to how to we as social beings continue when this particular authorities missives no longer work.

 

[Astrid]

Ah .. the Hong Kong way of doing science, then?

That's a weird thing to say

 

[AV1611VET]

That's a weird thing to say

It was your suggestion.

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

It was your suggestion.

I think she got it from the Bible.

 

[AV1611VET]

I think she got it from the Bible.

I wish she would get other things from the Bible, if you know what I mean.

 

[Astrid]

Deleted

 

[coffee4u]

Confucius: The Golden Rule

And five centuries before Christ, Confucius set forth his own Golden Rule: "Do not impose on others what you do not wish for yourself."​

The Golden rule that Jesus spoke was taken from a much earlier scripture.
Leviticus 19:18

Leviticus 19:18

18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

This was written long before Confucius came up with his.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Why do you think raping and killing is wrong? It makes perfect sense in a world where survival of the fittest is ultimately the only rule. Sin IS the discussion of right and wrong. We just say that there is a Creator who guides us to what is right and wrong. You have no basis for such a standard in a world created by blind chance. I never said I only do certain things because of a belief in God. I also have a conscience. But look at what we've seen over the last year: people acting like wild beasts in the street, often with very little consequence. No one who is paying attention and was appalled at such behavior can say sin isn't real. Well, they can say it, but they know inside that they are lying. Saying you don't need a Being telling you how to behave tells me you can move the goalposts of what is right and wrong behavior whenever you want. Many do just that.

You wear your ignorance with pride. Some basic education would seem to be in order.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Right -- and I'm Genghis Khan.

Denying the bible? God will not be happy when you see him