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Is the fundamental gap between creationists and non-creationists...

SelfSim

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Regressing in the conversation a little:
dlamberth said:
renniks said:
Well, in heaven there will be no death, and no reason to be sad.
The thing is, we are living right now, in this world, at this moment. It's now that God should be a reality in a persons life. It's now that we can and should live in the glory. To wait until some after death belief is, well...sad.
Appears to be some kind of a 'truce' then(?)

Some words of wisdom may add some clarity:

'Often there is a seeming truce between the humanist and the religious believer, but in fact their attitudes cannot be reconciled: one must choose between this world and the next. And the majority of human beings, if they understood the issue, would choose this world. They do make that choice when they continue working, breeding, and dying instead of crippling their faculties in the hope of obtaining a new lease of existence elsewhere.’
- George Orwell.

Mixing religion with science? ... Some things just don't mix.
 
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disciple Clint

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In your own words, what is the compelling evidence? I have read all those arguments before, and none of them is compelling. More to the point, none of them supports historical accuracy of the gospels or ID. So which do you consider to be unassailable evidence of either of your assertions?

You appear to have nothing.
I do not see you refuting anything.
 
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disciple Clint

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Sorry, I thought you were referring us to module four for evidence of ID. But now, having read it, I can say with certainty that there is no evidence for ID in module 2, either.
This is just a sample:

The high improbability of a pure chance occurrence of our low-entropy universe a low-entropy universe is necessary for the emergence, evolution, and complexification of life forms (because a high entropy universe would be too run down to allow for such development). Roger Penrose has calculated the exceedingly small probability of a pure chance occurrence of our low–entropy universe as 1010123o one against. How can we understand this number? It is like a ten raised to an exponent of: 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.This number is so large, that if every zero were 10 point type, our solar system would not be able to hold it! This is about the same odds as a monkey typing Shakespeare’s Macbeth by random tapping of the keys in a single attempt (virtually impossible). Currently, there is no natural explanation for the occurrence of this number, and if none is found, then we are left with the words of Roger Penrose himself: In order to produce a universe resembling the one in which we live, the Creator would have to aim for an absurdly tiny volume of the phase space of possible universes—about one part in ten exponentially raised to (10 exponentially raised to 123) to one of the entire folume for the situation under consideration.What Penrose is saying here is that this occurrence cannot be explained by a random (pure chance) occurrence. Therefore, one will have to make recourse either to a multiverse (composed of bubble universes, each having different values of constants) or as Penrose implies, a Creator
https://www.crediblecatholic.com/the-7-essential-modules/#big-book
 
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Astrid

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This is just a sample:

The high improbability of a pure chance occurrence of our low-entropy universe a low-entropy universe is necessary for the emergence, evolution, and complexification of life forms (because a high entropy universe would be too run down to allow for such development). Roger Penrose has calculated the exceedingly small probability of a pure chance occurrence of our low–entropy universe as 1010123o one against. How can we understand this number? It is like a ten raised to an exponent of: 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.This number is so large, that if every zero were 10 point type, our solar system would not be able to hold it! This is about the same odds as a monkey typing Shakespeare’s Macbeth by random tapping of the keys in a single attempt (virtually impossible). Currently, there is no natural explanation for the occurrence of this number, and if none is found, then we are left with the words of Roger Penrose himself: In order to produce a universe resembling the one in which we live, the Creator would have to aim for an absurdly tiny volume of the phase space of possible universes—about one part in ten exponentially raised to (10 exponentially raised to 123) to one of the entire folume for the situation under consideration.What Penrose is saying here is that this occurrence cannot be explained by a random (pure chance) occurrence. Therefore, one will have to make recourse either to a multiverse (composed of bubble universes, each having different values of constants) or as Penrose implies, a Creator
The 7 Essential Modules - Credible Catholic

A scientist who says something you like speaks Truth,
but the rest are liars.

If you have proof then faith becomes meaningless.

But just suppose it's true- so what? I could accept that,
if there were proof- I am not a creationist who would
dixintrgrate if I had to admitbto error.

ANYWAY, if God the big bang guy is proved it makes zero
difference to anything about evolution.
 
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disciple Clint

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No, you need to tell us which PRATT you consider to be compelling. It is not down to me to pick your argument for you.

Flavius JosephusFlavius Josephus (a Jewish historian writing a history of the Jewish people for a Roman audience in approximately 93 AD) provides the most impressive and detailed evidence for the historical Jesus outside Christian scripture. Many historians and exegetes have written extensively on Josephus’ testimony about Jesus because there were obviousChristian edits and interpolations of this text. Luke Timothy Johnson,8Raymond Brown,and John P. Meierhave a very balanced (and somewhat minimalistic) approach to the critical passage. All three scholars believe that the beginning part of the passage from Josephus’ Antiquities has not been significantly changed or edited, though later parts clearly were. The passage (sometimes called the Testimonium Flavianum) appears directly below. The italicized portions represent those which many scholars believe are part of the original text of Josephus. The unitalicized parts are either probably or definitely Christian additions or interpolations.Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.And the tribe of Christians, so namedfrom him, are not extinct at this day.9Johnson provides a mainstream-minimalistic view of the matter:Stripped of its obvious Christian accretions, the passage tells us a number of important things about Jesus, from the perspective of a first-century Jewish historian . . . . Jesus was both a teacher and a wonder-worker, that he got into trouble with some of the leaders of the Jews, that he was executed under theprefect Pontius Pilate, and that his followers continued to exist at the time of Josephus’ writing.10“Wonder-worker” in the above passage refers to Jesus’ miracles, and it is one of the most explicit references to miracle-working in Josephus’ works. Meier explains it as follows:7Kirby 20148See Johnson 1991, pp. 113-114. 9 See Brown 1994(a), pp.373-376. 10 See Meier 1994, pp.592-593.9Josephus 1965, 18:3.3.10Johnson 1991, pp. 113-114.CCBB - Volume 3 - Evidence for the History and Divinity of Jesus Christ13

Thus, Jesus of Nazareth stands out as a relative exception in The Antiquities [of Josephus] in that he is a named figure in 1st-century Jewish Palestine to whom Josephus is willing to attribute a number of miraculous deeds (Ant.18.3.3 Sec. 63: paradoxōn ergōn poiētēs). That Josephus did not transform 1st-century religious figures into miracle-workers in an irresponsible fashion is shown not only by his presentation of the “sign prophets” but also by the intriguing contrast betweenJesus and the Baptist in Book 18 of The Antiquities.TheBaptistreceivesthelongerandmorelaudatorynotice(18.5.2 Sec.16-19), but without benefit of miracles, while Jesus is presented as both miracle-worker and teacher. The distinction implied in Josephus is mirrored perfectly in the Four Gospels. https://www.crediblecatholic.com/the-7-essential-modules/#big-book
 
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Astrid

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Flavius JosephusFlavius Josephus (a Jewish historian writing a history of the Jewish people for a Roman audience in approximately 93 AD) provides the most impressive and detailed evidence for the historical Jesus outside Christian scripture. Many historians and exegetes have written extensively on Josephus’ testimony about Jesus because there were obviousChristian edits and interpolations of this text. Luke Timothy Johnson,8Raymond Brown,and John P. Meierhave a very balanced (and somewhat minimalistic) approach to the critical passage. All three scholars believe that the beginning part of the passage from Josephus’ Antiquities has not been significantly changed or edited, though later parts clearly were. The passage (sometimes called the Testimonium Flavianum) appears directly below. The italicized portions represent those which many scholars believe are part of the original text of Josephus. The unitalicized parts are either probably or definitely Christian additions or interpolations.Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.And the tribe of Christians, so namedfrom him, are not extinct at this day.9Johnson provides a mainstream-minimalistic view of the matter:Stripped of its obvious Christian accretions, the passage tells us a number of important things about Jesus, from the perspective of a first-century Jewish historian . . . . Jesus was both a teacher and a wonder-worker, that he got into trouble with some of the leaders of the Jews, that he was executed under theprefect Pontius Pilate, and that his followers continued to exist at the time of Josephus’ writing.10“Wonder-worker” in the above passage refers to Jesus’ miracles, and it is one of the most explicit references to miracle-working in Josephus’ works. Meier explains it as follows:7Kirby 20148See Johnson 1991, pp. 113-114. 9 See Brown 1994(a), pp.373-376. 10 See Meier 1994, pp.592-593.9Josephus 1965, 18:3.3.10Johnson 1991, pp. 113-114.CCBB - Volume 3 - Evidence for the History and Divinity of Jesus Christ13

Thus, Jesus of Nazareth stands out as a relative exception in The Antiquities [of Josephus] in that he is a named figure in 1st-century Jewish Palestine to whom Josephus is willing to attribute a number of miraculous deeds (Ant.18.3.3 Sec. 63: paradoxōn ergōn poiētēs). That Josephus did not transform 1st-century religious figures into miracle-workers in an irresponsible fashion is shown not only by his presentation of the “sign prophets” but also by the intriguing contrast betweenJesus and the Baptist in Book 18 of The Antiquities.TheBaptistreceivesthelongerandmorelaudatorynotice(18.5.2 Sec.16-19), but without benefit of miracles, while Jesus is presented as both miracle-worker and teacher. The distinction implied in Josephus is mirrored perfectly in the Four Gospels. The 7 Essential Modules - Credible Catholic
Another so what
 
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Bungle_Bear

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Flavius JosephusFlavius Josephus (a Jewish historian writing a history of the Jewish people for a Roman audience in approximately 93 AD) provides the most impressive and detailed evidence for the historical Jesus outside Christian scripture. Many historians and exegetes have written extensively on Josephus’ testimony about Jesus because there were obviousChristian edits and interpolations of this text. Luke Timothy Johnson,8Raymond Brown,and John P. Meierhave a very balanced (and somewhat minimalistic) approach to the critical passage. All three scholars believe that the beginning part of the passage from Josephus’ Antiquities has not been significantly changed or edited, though later parts clearly were. The passage (sometimes called the Testimonium Flavianum) appears directly below. The italicized portions represent those which many scholars believe are part of the original text of Josephus. The unitalicized parts are either probably or definitely Christian additions or interpolations.Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.And the tribe of Christians, so namedfrom him, are not extinct at this day.9Johnson provides a mainstream-minimalistic view of the matter:Stripped of its obvious Christian accretions, the passage tells us a number of important things about Jesus, from the perspective of a first-century Jewish historian . . . . Jesus was both a teacher and a wonder-worker, that he got into trouble with some of the leaders of the Jews, that he was executed under theprefect Pontius Pilate, and that his followers continued to exist at the time of Josephus’ writing.10“Wonder-worker” in the above passage refers to Jesus’ miracles, and it is one of the most explicit references to miracle-working in Josephus’ works. Meier explains it as follows:7Kirby 20148See Johnson 1991, pp. 113-114. 9 See Brown 1994(a), pp.373-376. 10 See Meier 1994, pp.592-593.9Josephus 1965, 18:3.3.10Johnson 1991, pp. 113-114.CCBB - Volume 3 - Evidence for the History and Divinity of Jesus Christ13

Thus, Jesus of Nazareth stands out as a relative exception in The Antiquities [of Josephus] in that he is a named figure in 1st-century Jewish Palestine to whom Josephus is willing to attribute a number of miraculous deeds (Ant.18.3.3 Sec. 63: paradoxōn ergōn poiētēs). That Josephus did not transform 1st-century religious figures into miracle-workers in an irresponsible fashion is shown not only by his presentation of the “sign prophets” but also by the intriguing contrast betweenJesus and the Baptist in Book 18 of The Antiquities.TheBaptistreceivesthelongerandmorelaudatorynotice(18.5.2 Sec.16-19), but without benefit of miracles, while Jesus is presented as both miracle-worker and teacher. The distinction implied in Josephus is mirrored perfectly in the Four Gospels. The 7 Essential Modules - Credible Catholic
And.....? How does that make the gospels historically accurate? Very few people dispute Jesus being a real person, but that still does nothing to support historical accuracy of the gospels. Try again?
 
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disciple Clint

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A scientist who says something you like speaks Trugh,
but the rest are liars.

If you have proof then faith becomes meaningless.

But just suppose it's true- so what? I could accept that,
if there were proof- I am not a creationist who would
dixintrgrate if I had to admitbto error.

ANYWAY, if God the big bang guy is proved it makes zero
difference to anything about evolution.
But just suppose it's true- so what?
well if you suppose it might be true then you would be foolish not to accept Jesus as your savior and risk going to hell forever. Pascal’s Wager about God | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
 
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disciple Clint

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And.....? How does that make the gospels historically accurate? Very few people dispute Jesus being a real person, but that still does nothing to support historical accuracy of the gospels. Try again?
There are two possibilities.
1. you truly want to know the truth and are open to accepting God. In which case I gave you the shortcut to get the information
OR
2. Nothing will change your mind about God. I will not waste my time, there are people who are open to the truth and want help.
 
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Astrid

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well if you suppose it might be true then you would be foolish not to accept Jesus as your savior and risk going to hell forever. Pascal’s Wager about God | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Who doubts that some person existed? He wasn't named Jesus,
nobody knows when or where he died.
After he died, people were miraculously able to " remember" things he said
and did.

Therefore I should say something I don't believe?

As for Pascal, according to Islam I am at risk of being
hung by my hair in eternal fire as I refuse to cover my
hair in public.

In the event " god" would not be fooled if I say I believe
something when I don't. Maybe Allah could be tricked by
me covering my hair,
 
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disciple Clint

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Who doubts that some person existed? He wasn't named Jesus,
nobody knows when or where he died.
After he died, people were miraculously able to " remember" things he said
and did.

Therefore I should say something I don't believe?

As for Pascal, according to Islam I am at risk of being
hung by my hair in eternal fire as I refuse to cover my
hair in public.

In the event " god" would not be fooled if I say I believe
something when I don't. Maybe Allah could be tricked by
me covering my hair,
If you knew something was true would you be willing to lie and say it was false if it would save you from being burned alive?
 
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Astrid

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There are two possibilities.
1. you truly want to know the truth and are open to accepting God. In which case I gave you the shortcut to get the information
OR
2. Nothing will change your mind about God. I will not waste my time, there are people who are open to the truth and want help.

And you are determined not to know the truth about evolution?
What if there is a God and as such is annoyed that people lie
about what he did and how he did it? Pascal and all.

Your reasons for refusing to understand are not thought through,
your " disproof" is facile and clueless,

How well do yiu expect that to be received except among the
similarly benighted?
 
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disciple Clint

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And you are determined not to know the truth about evolution?
What if there is a God and as such is annoyed that people lie
about what he did and how he did it? Pascal and all.

Your reasons for refusing to understand are not thought through,
your " disproof" is facile and clueless,

How well do yiu expect that to be received except among the
similarly benighted?
you are going to need to be more clear in your communications
 
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Astrid

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you are going to need to be more clear in your communications

If you really cannot figure out what I said, then you for sure
cannot understand the content of your "proofs".

A person who is uneducated in things like used car buying
or commodities futures trading is very easy to dupe with slick
talk.

Same with the creationist pseudo science snake oil you don't
understand, but buy it anyway.
 
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disciple Clint

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If you really cannot figure out what I said, then you for sure
cannot understand the content of your "proofs".

A person who is uneducated in things like used car buying
or commodities futures trading is very easy to dupe with slick
talk.

Same with the creationist pseudo science snake oil you don't
understand, but buy it anyway.
I see anyone who does not agree with you is uneducated. Has absolutely noting to do with incomplete sentences that have no context.
 
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Speedwell

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There are two possibilities.
1. you truly want to know the truth and are open to accepting God. In which case I gave you the shortcut to get the information
OR
2. Nothing will change your mind about God. I will not waste my time, there are people who are open to the truth and want help.
This discussion is not about the Existence of God nor the divinity and resurrection of Jesus. Neither the existence of God nor the resurrection of Jesus are on topic for this forum nor being disputed here. Some of us believe in God and the resurrection of Jesus and do not dipute it, others don't believe in the existence of God or the divinity and resurrection of Jesus but don't care if you do and won't dispute it. You made the claim that you had evidence supporting the accuracy of the Gospels and evidence supporting ID. You have provided neither.
 
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disciple Clint

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This discussion is not about the Existence of God nor the divinity and resurrection of Jesus. Neither the existence of God nor the resurrection of Jesus are on topic for this forum nor being disputed here. Some of us believe in God and the resurrection of Jesus and do not dipute it, others don't believe in the existence of God or the divinity and resurrection of Jesus but don't care if you do and won't dispute it. You made the claim that you had evidence supporting the accuracy of the Gospels and evidence supporting ID. You have provided neither.
I have provided more than sufficient evidence, none of which as been refuted, I am not here to force feed people, believe what you want to believe.
 
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Speedwell

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This is just a sample:

The high improbability of a pure chance occurrence of our low-entropy universe a low-entropy universe is necessary for the emergence, evolution, and complexification of life forms (because a high entropy universe would be too run down to allow for such development). Roger Penrose has calculated the exceedingly small probability of a pure chance occurrence of our low–entropy universe as 1010123o one against. How can we understand this number? It is like a ten raised to an exponent of: 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.This number is so large, that if every zero were 10 point type, our solar system would not be able to hold it! This is about the same odds as a monkey typing Shakespeare’s Macbeth by random tapping of the keys in a single attempt (virtually impossible). Currently, there is no natural explanation for the occurrence of this number, and if none is found, then we are left with the words of Roger Penrose himself: In order to produce a universe resembling the one in which we live, the Creator would have to aim for an absurdly tiny volume of the phase space of possible universes—about one part in ten exponentially raised to (10 exponentially raised to 123) to one of the entire folume for the situation under consideration.What Penrose is saying here is that this occurrence cannot be explained by a random (pure chance) occurrence. Therefore, one will have to make recourse either to a multiverse (composed of bubble universes, each having different values of constants) or as Penrose implies, a Creator
The 7 Essential Modules - Credible Catholic
Yes, that is all very well, and is only a very slight misrepresentation of Penrose (who is an atheist) but it has nothing whatever to do with Intelligent Design.
 
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Speedwell

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I have provided more than sufficient evidence, none of which as been refuted, I am not here to force feed people, believe what you want to believe.
What a fib. You have provided NO evidence of ID. You haven't even discussed it except to claim that you have evidence of it, and then you go back to quoting Father Spitzer who doesn't even believe in ID much less provide any evidence of it.

What are you up to here? You claim to have evidence of ID, you provide evidence which has nothing to do with ID and want us to refute it? Why? So you can go off boasting you presented evidence of ID which we couldn't refute?
 
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