Is the fourth commandment done away with? (Moved)

[bugkiller]

Biblically and known in apostalistic time as a sect of Judaism... with Paul as the ring leader.

Acts 24:5
"We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect

Of which Paul agrees with...

Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,

What you say may be initially true and universal. But in Acts 11:26 And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. This is before the Council at Jerusalem.

As Paul I also agree with everything that is written in the Prophets and I add the law. This does not mean to either Paul or me that the law currently has jurisdiction. To so say is prooftexting at best and ignoring by lack of knowledge (I don't think that is the case) other things Paul writes at the least.

Notice that Paul does not admit the Way is a sect. He says 'which they call a sect.' This is a long way from Paul calling the Way a sect.

I see your post as an attempt to dismiss Christianity.

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

Born again.. changes perspective. It didn't make Paul any less of a Jew but an more impressive one in Yeshua who is King of the Jews

of course he did not change his race,and he also loved the Jews..

But...he did seem to diferentiate though.


4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, [3] blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ

 

[visionary]

What you say may be initially true and universal. But in Acts 11:26 And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. This is before the Council at Jerusalem.

As Paul I also agree with everything that is written in the Prophets and I add the law. This does not mean to either Paul or me that the law currently has jurisdiction. To so say is prooftexting at best and ignoring by lack of knowledge (I don't think that is the case) other things Paul writes at the least.

Notice that Paul does not admit the Way is a sect. He says 'which they call a sect.' This is a long way from Paul calling the Way a sect.

I see your post as an attempt to dismiss Christianity.

bugkiller

Actually not... it was a slang term that was suppose to derogatory but nothing new for THE WAY a sect of Judaism to encounter.

 

[bugkiller]

Actually not... it was a slang term that was suppose to derogatory but nothing new for THE WAY a sect of Judaism to encounter.

I am pretty slow, but I would say that is a rather hasty and serious retreat. There must be alot of blood loss. I surely must have used something more than a flyswater.

bugkiller

 

[Hismessenger]

The fourth commandment is fulfilled in Christ who is the true sabbath of which the earthly sabbath was only a shadow. We are to rest In Christ, not a day.

hismessenger

 

[visionary]

of course he did not change his race,and he also loved the Jews..

But...he did seem to diferentiate though.


4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, [3] blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ

Is your faith the glory of His people Israel?

Luke 2:32
A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Are we not coming to the time of the fulness of the gentiles?
..
Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Are you aliens to the commonwealth of Israel?

Ephesians 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Talking about the new covenant... Even it is seen in context... It will be made with the house of Israel...

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Our Lord is the King of the Jews... He will be triumphant... and those hard headed people will be His people... They will be in Him not only in name but in faith... like we have not seen yet... It will come in the latter rain.. Just as the former rain brought the gospel to the gentiles... the latter rain will come out of Jerusalem and go around the world, led by Jews... We will grab onto their hem, saying...

Zechariah 8:23
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

It is a prophecy yet to be fulfilled... and I think it will be when the seal is opened and it must be prophecied again...

Revelation 10:11
And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

 

[Hismessenger]

The covenant which was made with Israel coming out of Egypt had nothing whatsoever to do with the law. If you look at chapter 7 of Jeremiah and chapter 11, you will see the covenant given if you have understanding. It was about relationship, not requirements. Most who view the law are still blinded to the truth. The law came from our transgressions. Not from God's holiness as many believe. It was given to point out our sins which we commit. We sinned before the law was given and God made sure that we knew that we were going against His will by showing us our sins. We can never stand before Him and say I never knew.

Here are a couple of verses from those chapters to show the truth of what I have said. Read the whole chapter to confirm.

Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

Jer 11:3 And say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Cursed [be] the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant,

Jer 11:4 Which I commanded your fathers in the day [that] I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God:

Just so you may understand what God is looking for from us, ask yourself what is it that God wants from us? To obey the law or a relationship as sons? And then think back on these verses and chapters he has shown.

hismessenger

 

[visionary]

It is always a relationship, no one can grab a contract and say that they are a part of it just because they are holding the contract paperwork in their hands. They have to be the parties who agree with what is written in the contract... It is an experience.

 

[bugkiller]

The covenant which was made with Israel coming out of Egypt had nothing whatsoever to do with the law. If you look at chapter 7 of Jeremiah and chapter 11, you will see the covenant given if you have understanding. It was about relationship, not requirements. Most who view the law are still blinded to the truth. The law came from our transgressions. Not from God's holiness as many believe. It was given to point out our sins which we commit. We sinned before the law was given and God made sure that we knew that we were going against His will by showing us our sins. We can never stand before Him and say I never knew.

Here are a couple of verses from those chapters to show the truth of what I have said. Read the whole chapter to confirm.

Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

Jer 11:3 And say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Cursed [be] the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant,

Jer 11:4 Which I commanded your fathers in the day [that] I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God:

Just so you may understand what God is looking for from us, ask yourself what is it that God wants from us? To obey the law or a relationship as sons? And then think back on these verses and chapters he has shown.

hismessenger

This is pretty strange. According to Deuteronomy 4:13 the covenant is the ten commandments written on 2 tables of stone. Please explain this paradox. Will you identify the covenant made with their fathers. I think I have, but you obviously disagree. I think you have at least called Moses uninformed by God Himself or at worst called Moses a liar. Your options are not that many. Which I could point out very easily. I want to give you an opprotunity to explain.

This do get interesting, I'll say.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Actually not... it was a slang term that was suppose to derogatory but nothing new for THE WAY a sect of Judaism to encounter.

I regret that I do not understand the phrase Actually not... in your post. I do understand the explaination about the Way.

Will you help me out on that part I do not understand?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Is your faith the glory of His people Israel?

Luke 2:32
A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Are we not coming to the time of the fulness of the gentiles?
..
Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Are you aliens to the commonwealth of Israel?

Ephesians 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Talking about the new covenant... Even it is seen in context... It will be made with the house of Israel...

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Our Lord is the King of the Jews... He will be triumphant... and those hard headed people will be His people... They will be in Him not only in name but in faith... like we have not seen yet... It will come in the latter rain.. Just as the former rain brought the gospel to the gentiles... the latter rain will come out of Jerusalem and go around the world, led by Jews... We will grab onto their hem, saying...

Zechariah 8:23
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

It is a prophecy yet to be fulfilled... and I think it will be when the seal is opened and it must be prophecied again...

Revelation 10:11
And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

It appears to me that you are saying that unsless I am a part of Israel I am not part of the people of God. Is this understanding correct?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Let's say that I am keeping the shabbat I want, the way I want but I call it my feast, my shabbat, etc... is it the Lord's?

This is in reference to you trying to get around the Hosea 2;11 reference by clearly indicating what Hoses was referring to was not the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

ok.. let me explain it this way... Did our Lord have a controversy with the way the pharisee's were keeping or even understanding on how to keep the shabbat? So whose shabbat were the pharisees keeping if it was not the Lord's? The Law is spiritual and must be spiritual discerned. .. otherwise we are doing things by guess and gosh... and then depending on a man made system [in the Israel's case.. Oral Torah [see Jewish traditions here]. That is where scripture [our Lord] is making a distinction between 'her' and "his'....

Galatians 1:14
And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Please notice in this verse where the exceedly zealous was for .. aka the traditions of my fathers... now compare...

Acts 21:20
And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Now born again.. these Jews switched from zealous for the traditions of fathers to zealous of the Law of God.... Even our Lord said He is Lord of the SABBATH. Yeshua made sure all understood that He did not come to do away with the Law but to establish it in its proper setting.

What the pharisees considered to be breaking the sabbath laws, was really traditions. When reading scriptures, you have to get into the scene being described before you. That mean you have to understand the setting so that you understand it in context.

Matthew 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

He expounded on how the traditional thinking was interfering with the true spirit of keeping the Law..

Matthew 12

1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.

2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

3But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

4How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

5Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

OK, am I missing something here? Where did you say Jesus referred to her sabbaths? Gotta cut back on my Dr Pepper.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I see it differently and do believe that the decree of men years ago to remove all things Jewish from the faith was not of God... it was a roman thing. I believe originally the faith was a sect of Judaism and scriptures must be seen in this context. So yeah, what I have written may put a burr in your craw, especially since you have taken so many years to settle it in your own mind, it is a real pain for someone to bring up another perspective that upsets your apple cart. We should be more concerned about whether it is in line with God's thinking. Since God created Judaism as outlined on Mount Sinai, I would say that it is God who is looking for a people who can be spiritual Jews..

Romans 2:29 (King James Version)

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Usually the one who barks is the one being bitten. Are you sure you shouldn'tbe applying your above comments to yourself? I am not. It seems to me that you are implying obligation to the law. If this is so then you are also trying to get me to forsake my salvational/redemptive relationship with God provided by Jesus. Gal 5:4.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Biblically and known in apostalistic time as a sect of Judaism... with Paul as the ring leader.

Acts 24:5
"We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect

Of which Paul agrees with...

Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,

I very understand what the Jews were calling this new thing we call Chrisitanity. The Way did not work so you found another scripture calling Christianity a sec of the Jews. Hogwash!! Christianity is not a sect of the Jews. I did not say Christianity's foundation has no roots in Israelism, or the OC. Indeed it does help to a degree to know about and understand the OT. Jesus Himself states This is My bolood of the new testament (covenant). And this new covenant is not like the one extablished with their fathers at Sinai Jere 31:31 - 33, Hebrews 8:8 -13, Deut 4:13.

Yes I understand how bad you want this to be Israel. Because if it isn't then you have to give up your postition. Christians are not (spiritual) Jews. Gal 5:4. Rom 2:29; 11:17; John 10:16.

bugkiller

 

[Hismessenger]

I just did explain but evidently you can't see it.
The covenant was this. OBEY my Voice. Not the law for there was no law until they showed their lack of understanding for relationship. The law came after they left Egypt and it was some days after they were over the Red Sea. If you recall, they were to rest when the cloud rested and move when the cloud moved. That is what He told them and that is what they kept. There is no law in that but relationship. Follow me and I will protect you. Is that plain enough.

hismessenger

 

[bugkiller]

I just did explain but evidently you can't see it.
The covenant was this. OBEY my Voice. Not the law for there was no law until they showed their lack of understanding for relationship. The law came after they left Egypt and it was some days after they were over the Red Sea. If you recall, they were to rest when the cloud rested and move when the cloud moved. That is what He told them and that is what they kept. There is no law in that but relationship. Follow me and I will protect you. Is that plain enough.

hismessenger

Please explain this verse (Deut 4:13) which I have repeatedly referred to and quote: And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

bugkiller

 

[visionary]

Finding harmony with all of scriptures is important. IN the verses I provided, they are to be entered into one's own heart, especially those found in NT. ... including the ones I provided.

 

[Hismessenger]

How many days, months or years was it before Deut 4:13 was given. It wasn't given in the Exodus but the command to obey my voice was. Is that not a fact.
And even more look at verse 12 for it confirms what I have said and verse 14 makes it even clearer. OBEY MY VOICE. That was the covenant relationship God was looking for from the people but had to give them the law because of their lack of understanding of the relationship He was seeking with them. . How do you not get this.
He makes it clear in Jeremiah but I don't believe you read it for if you had we wouldn't be having this conversation. HE specifically says, I did not give you laws but said to obey my voice. That is a paraphrase but it speaks to the point.

hismessenger

 

[bugkiller]

Finding harmony with all of scriptures is important. IN the verses I provided, they are to be entered into one's own heart, especially those found in NT. ... including the ones I provided.

So are you saying that I am ignoring those verses you provided? I notice that you said nothing about them being called Christians. Instead you prefer the terms The Way and Sect of the Nazarenes. You can certainly use those names in referring to Christianity, and I fully admit that they were slurs against what is today called generally Christian. The Jews were in full bloom hate of such.

bugkiller