Is the fourth commandment done away with? (Moved)

[bugkiller]

How many days, months or years was it before Deut 4:13 was given. It wasn't given in the Exodus but the command to obey my voice was. Is that not a fact.
And even more look at verse 12 for it confirms what I have said and verse 14 makes it even clearer. OBEY MY VOICE. That was the covenant relationship God was looking for from the people but had to give them the law because of their lack of understanding of the relationship He was seeking with them. . How do you not get this.
He makes it clear in Jeremiah but I don't believe you read it for if you had we wouldn't be having this conversation. HE specifically says, I did not give you laws but said to obey my voice. That is a paraphrase but it speaks to the point.

hismessenger

I see what you said as a dismissal because of unbleif. What difference does it make when Deut 4:13 was written. I don't understand how you think it changes the facts. Either Deuteronomy is inspired by God or it is not. It seems to me that you are saying that Moses is lying. The preceeding and post verses do not change the word of v 13 which clearly say the words spoken by the Voice were written on 2 tables of stone.

You are saying that there were two covenants. To which I say hogwash!! I never heard of two covenants with Israel. There are to many scriptures indicating the covenant was recorded on 2 tables of stone.

I take it that you say since the covenant was OBEY MY VOICE, the ten commandments have no authority, thus invalid.

bugkiller

 

[Hismessenger]

You miss the point Bugkiller.

Obey my voice wasn't about a covenant but relationship. And as far as this statement goes;

You are saying that there were two covenants. To which I say hogwash!! I never heard of two covenants with Israel. There are to many scriptures indicating the covenant was recorded on 2 tables of stone.

It goes to show you should be reading your word more and not listening to what others have to say without being Berean about it.

The Ten commandments were written down twice for Moses broke the first ones into pieces when He cast them down. In essence they had been broken before they, the law, was given. For they were given because of the very sins committed by the same stiff necked people who would not obey His voice. Now instead of relationship, it became a thing of requirement. They started out resting in Him but soon turned away to their own devises.

This also goes back to what I said about the law being given because of offences. What was the offence, disregarding His voice, Not the law which was yet to come. You must understand that whatever God has spoken is the law but meant to bring relationship rather than condemnation as does the law. Thus we had OBEY MY VOICE. Law for relationship. Keep the commandments written in the ordinances of the Torah, requirement.

hismessenger

 

[bugkiller]

You miss the point Bugkiller.

Obey my voice wasn't about a covenant but relationship. And as far as this statement goes;



It goes to show you should be reading your word more and not listening to what others have to say without being Berean about it.

The Ten commandments were written down twice for Moses broke the first ones into pieces when He cast them down. In essence they had been broken before they, the law, was given. For they were given because of the very sins committed by the same stiff necked people who would not obey His voice. Now instead of relationship, it became a thing of requirement. They started out resting in Him but soon turned away to their own devises.

This also goes back to what I said about the law being given because of offences. What was the offence, disregarding His voice, Not the law which was yet to come. You must understand that whatever God has spoken is the law but meant to bring relationship rather than condemnation as does the law. Thus we had OBEY MY VOICE. Law for relationship. Keep the commandments written in the ordinances of the Torah, requirement.

hismessenger

My sincerest apologies hismessenger. I am sure I read as above that you said the covenant was not written on stone as Deut 4:13 states: And He declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone. The blue part of the verse is verbal. The black part of the verse tells what God said and wrote. The red part of the verse says that He also wrote what He said in stone.

You state in post 347: The covenant which was made with Israel coming out of Egypt had nothing whatsoever to do with the law. This was not a covenant, it was told to Abraham and a promise was made to him long before they went to Egypt. Genesis 15:13 -15. You further state: It was about relationship, not requirements. And I agree with the first part of your second sentence in blue. I do not concur with the second part. In any covenant vocal or written there must be compliance on at least one parties part. The difference is the type of covenant. Israel said all that the Lord said we will do, did they not? Exodus 19:8. The people of Israel repeated these words in 24:3.

You provided two references from Jeremiah 7:23; 11:4 which say Obey my voice in support of your idea that the covenant with was oral not written. You also offer that the covenant was coming out of Egypt in post 356. I don’t think anyone has ever heard there was a covenant to leave Egypt as the covenant with Israel. A promise yes. But nothing like what you are saying and from Jeremiah, who was a long time after Egypt. At least this is the first time I ever heard it. Do you have some source to back this idea up as offered in post 356? I offered and showed proof that it is both vocal and written. You then tried to dismiss (post 359) my claim backed by Deut 4:13 with: How many days, months or years was it before Deut 4:13 was given. This does not matter if the Bible is inspired by God. Your discussion totally ignores verse 13. Do you have some evidence verse 13 is pollution of the text? Please provide the version/translation with the notes. It wasn't given in the Exodus but the command to obey my voice was.

Exodus 20:1 states: And God spake all these words saying. And the ten commandments follow in verses 2 - 17. You so infer above that: The Ten commandments were written down twice for Moses broke the first ones into pieces when He cast them down. We understand that these words are written on stone which are clearly called the covenant in Deut 4:13. These are also the words on the second set of tables of stone Exodus 34:28. You plainly said they are not the covenant with Israel. You said Obey My voice is the covenant. If that is so what did God say that was different from what Moses said God spoke and wrote on stone? Is Moses saying something God did not say? If so then Moses is lying and the scripture is not reliable, or inspired.

What you write does not indicate optional. I quote: This also goes back to what I said about the law being given because of offences. What was the offence, disregarding His voice, Not the law which was yet to come. If they are the same, how is one version about relationship and not obligation and the other identical version about obligation and not relationship? Your presenttion has nothing to do with Gal 3:19: Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

You close post 347 with: Just so you may understand what God is looking for from us, ask yourself what is it that God wants from us? To obey the law or a relationship as sons? And then think back on these verses and chapters he has shown.

This leaves me with two questions. Either you are posing as two different people on these forums or are declaring yourself God. You are the one doing the showing. I would consider either to be fraud. From the heart the mouth speaketh. To be presenting something in a pinpoint accuracy manner you are at least extremely sloppy.

You said:
It goes to show you should be reading your word more and not listening to what others have to say without being Berean about it.

Now I wish to ask who is doing what you said I should do? Am I being Berean enough for you?

bugkiller

 

[Hismessenger]

Bugkiller,

here is proof positive that the covenant given was oral and not written. Go back and read the chapters before these verses and you will see that there were many things which God commanded them before the law was written down. God wanted them to keep them in their hearts in relationship with His goodness to them. But they wouldn't and constantly complained. Thus came in the law. Even unto the sabbath which they failed to keep as given orally.

​

Exd 19:1 ¶ In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they [into] the wilderness of Sinai.
Exd 19:2 For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come [to] the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.
Exd 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
Exd 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Exd 19:5 Now therefore,if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all

hismessenger

 

[bugkiller]

Bugkiller,

here is proof positive that the covenant given was oral and not written. Go back and read the chapters before these verses and you will see that there were many things which God commanded them before the law was written down. God wanted them to keep them in their hearts in relationship with His goodness to them. But they wouldn't and constantly complained. Thus came in the law. Even unto the sabbath which they failed to keep as given orally.

hismessenger

Not one of those verses you quote Exodus 19:1 -5 reveal what the covenant is. I agree that the covenant was given orally.
Exodus 20:1-17 (King James Version)



1And God spake all these words, saying, 2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13Thou shalt not kill. 14Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15Thou shalt not steal. 16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.


And Deuteronomy 4:13 says this is the covenant which in what 5 posts you have not said a word about. I used this verse by your second post I think. You used the verse preceding and post,but not the verse. Got a reason? Here it is again: And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone.

What did He say (declared)? His covenant - ten commandments
What did He write? them - ten commandments
Where did He write them? upon two tables of stone

To declare is normally spoken and can be used in the same place as the word said with out changing the meaning of verbal communication.

Why do you wish to ignore this verseand these facts?

I have presented proof positive that the covenant, the ten commandments were given orally and also written on two tables of stone.

Here is the reason God gave the the Sabbath in Ex 16. It was to test them about walking (following) His (God's) law. This was not written but oral. Notice it does not say anything about covenant.

Exodus 16:4 (King James Version)
Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in My law, or no.

Is this Berean enough for you?

bugkiller

 

[Hismessenger]

bugkiller,

I have presented proof positive that the covenant, the ten commandments were given orally and also written on two tables of stone.
And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone.

The question to you is why did he write them down and how long after Exd 20. If you will answer this truthfully to yourself, you will realize that it is because they failed to OBEY HIS VOICE. I explained to you in one of the other posts why this was done but evidently it was missed. HE gave then a covenant by word of mouth in Exd 20, but because they failed to obey his voice and his commandments, He wrote them down so there could be no excuse that they didn't know. Even though it doesn't say covenant, it was an oral covenant about RELATIONSHIP, not LAW. The law came in because of the failure to obey His voice willing. So now He made it a requirement at the cost of your very life to go against Him.

You ask;

Why do you wish to ignore this verse and these facts?

Fact is that I haven't ignored them but see them in the proper time perspective. HE spoke his will, they ignored it, so he wrote it down so that they would know that there was a record which they could not deny what He had spoken. Look at all the things which went on in between the time it was spoken and the time it was written down. If the had heeded His voice, there would not have been the need to write it down. HE makes this very clear in Exd and Jeremiah.

hismessenger

 

[bugkiller]

bugkiller,



The question to you is why did he write them down and how long after Exd 20. If you will answer this truthfully to yourself, you will realize that it is because they failed to OBEY HIS VOICE. I explained to you in one of the other posts why this was done but evidently it was missed. HE gave then a covenant by word of mouth in Exd 20, but because they failed to obey his voice and his commandments, He wrote them down so there could be no excuse that they didn't know. Even though it doesn't say covenant, it was an oral covenant about RELATIONSHIP, not LAW. The law came in because of the failure to obey His voice willing. So now He made it a requirement at the cost of your very life to go against Him.

You ask;



Fact is that I haven't ignored them but see them in the proper time perspective. HE spoke his will, they ignored it, so he wrote it down so that they would know that there was a record which they could not deny what He had spoken. Look at all the things which went on in between the time it was spoken and the time it was written down. If the had heeded His voice, there would not have been the need to write it down. HE makes this very clear in Exd and Jeremiah.

hismessenger

So where do you get that God wrote the vocal covenant as something different? Verse please. The tablets of stone appear in Ex 31:18 while they are still camped at Sinai. I don't understand why the time frame makes a difference. I think Moses was on the mountian for 40 days. Alot could be written in 40 days.

Where do you get that the reason for the tables of stone is because they failed to OBEY HIS VOICE? I am having a rather difficult time finding it between the giving of the ten commandments in chapter 20 and the actual tablets appearing in 31. The only voice they might fail to obey between ch 20 and 31 is in 23:21, 22 of an Angel. Please read the following paragraph before getting to excited. This is not the One Who issued the commandments in ch 20 because it plainly says I send. This Angel will not pardon transgression. One can get pardon for violation of the ten issued by the Voice (of God) in ch 20.

The only time I can see that they failed to obey God's voice was while the tables of stone were being made and written on. I did not find a reason why God wrote them on stone from ch 20 to 31. If I overlooked it please tell me the verse. You did say: If the had heeded His voice, there would not have been the need to write it down. HE makes this very clear in Exd. But you did not give a reference from Exodus 20 to 31 about your statement in any post.

Deut 13:4 says: Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear Him, and keep His commandments, and obey His voice, and ye shall serve Him, and cleave unto Him. I take His commandments, and obey His voice to be the same thing because God spake in Ex 20 the commandments.

bugkiller

 

[Hismessenger]

Where is the law after the flood when there was a covenant made with Noah.
It was a spoken covenant just as a hand shake use to suffice for a contract, so was the word of God. And since there was no one greater than himself he swore by himself to keep whatever covenant He made. Man is the one who continually breaks them. Whether they were spoken or written.

And where was the law at the tower of Babel. It had not been given but was given, Why?, because of the continued rebellion to the will of God. Not to a law which had yet to be manifest. Is that so hard to grasp. The law came in because of offenses, sin, transgressions. Not because it was Holy, for that it was, but it was the condemnation of man's inability to follow the will of God.
This is the most misunderstood point about the law. It was NEVER NEVER NEVER given to be kept but to show what sins we commit against God's perfect will. Not what sins we commit against the law for we sin without the law. But now with the law we have no excuse to continue in sin when we know what it says. The law is about condemnation, grace is about relationship.

Christ gave us relationship again so why go back under the law of sin. Did not Christ take on our sins to remove the blemish from our image? Do you desecrate His sacrifice for something which condemned you because you believe it it right and God has told you it is wrong.

Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Take care that your law keeping ways does not bring you to an unacceptable end. The light is given to take away the darkness so do we continue to dwell where darkness reigns?

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

Jer 11:7 For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day [that] I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, [even] unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.
Jer 11:8 Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded [them] to do; but they did [them] not.

What did God say to Noah in Gen;

Gen 6:5 ¶ And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

How many years was this before the law?

hismessenger

 

[bugkiller]

Where is the law after the flood when there was a covenant made with Noah.
It was a spoken covenant just as a hand shake use to suffice for a contract, so was the word of God. And since there was no one greater than himself he swore by himself to keep whatever covenant He made. Man is the one who continually breaks them. Whether they were spoken or written.

And where was the law at the tower of Babel. It had not been given but was given, Why?, because of the continued rebellion to the will of God. Not to a law which had yet to be manifest. Is that so hard to grasp. The law came in because of offenses, sin, transgressions. Not because it was Holy, for that it was, but it was the condemnation of man's inability to follow the will of God.
This is the most misunderstood point about the law. It was NEVER NEVER NEVER given to be kept but to show what sins we commit against God's perfect will. Not what sins we commit against the law for we sin without the law. But now with the law we have no excuse to continue in sin when we know what it says. The law is about condemnation, grace is about relationship.

Christ gave us relationship again so why go back under the law of sin. Did not Christ take on our sins to remove the blemish from our image? Do you desecrate His sacrifice for something which condemned you because you believe it it right and God has told you it is wrong.

I have no clue what you are talking about. But I will point you to Gal 5:16, 18 - 21. I am led by the Spirit and do not habitually practice any of the things listed. I did not say I never sin. I John 1:9; 2:4. His (Jesus') commandments are the commandments mentioned not the ten commandments. I John 3:23: And this is His (God the Father's)commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He (Jesus) gave us commandment.

Take care that your law keeping ways does not bring you to an unacceptable end. The light is given to take away the darkness so do we continue to dwell where darkness reigns?

hismessenger

Your refenerce to the law is the law issued at Sinai. You are trying to argue that this law goes back to Noah. This is not so Gal 3:17. The covenant made with Noah was also made with all the animals of the earth as well. The law only effected domesticated animals of the Jews. The covenant as well is a royal grant covenant. The law or covenant with Israel is suzerian covenant. A royal grant covenant requires no performance on the part of the recipient. A suzerian covenant requires conditional performance on each parties part. That is what the covenant with the COI is.

There is no place that the Bible says the tables of stone were made and given because of failure to obey God's voice.

What is your proof that the law had given in the time of Babel? There was no law of God given any where before Sinai, period. Gal 3:19 The law of Moses was given so man could be charged. Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression. And Roman 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The law did indeed come because of transgressions Gal 3:19. It was ino in existence before Sinai.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

What did God say to Noah in Gen;



How many years was this before the law?

hismessenger

It is immaterial how many years before the law Noah or Abraham was. It does not invalidate Deut 4:13. You are using the law in two different ways calling it the same thing. The problem is that you are calling God's law His voice. There was no violation of law before Sinai. I did not say there was no sin (evil - wrong doing).

bugkiller

 

[Hismessenger]

I have no clue what you are talking about. But I will point you to Gal 5:16, 18 - 21. I am led by the Spirit and do not habitually practice any of the things listed. I did not say I never sin. I John 1:9; 2:4. His (Jesus') commandments are the commandments mentioned not the ten commandments. I John 3:23: And this is His (God the Father's)commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He (Jesus) gave us commandment.

Take care that your law keeping ways does not bring you to an unacceptable end. The light is given to take away the darkness so do we continue to dwell where darkness reigns?

hismessenger
​

Your refenerce to the law is the law issued at Sinai. You are trying to argue that this law goes back to Noah. This is not so Gal 3:17. The covenant made with Noah was also made with all the animals of the earth as well. The law only effected domesticated animals of the Jews. The covenant as well is a royal grant covenant. The law or covenant with Israel is suzerian covenant. A royal grant covenant requires no performance on the part of the recipient. A suzerian covenant requires conditional performance on each parties part. That is what the covenant with the COI is.

There is no place that the Bible says the tables of stone were made and given because of failure to obey God's voice.

What is your proof that the law had given in the time of Babel? There was no law of God given any where before Sinai, period. Gal 3:19 The law of Moses was given so man could be charged. Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression. And Roman 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The law did indeed come because of transgressions Gal 3:19. It was ino in existence before Sinai.

LOL bugkiller, you didn't have to tell me that you had no clue. This thread started out about whether the fourth commandment was done away with to which I answered yes. That Christ is the true sabbath and the day was only a shadow of Him. In Him we rest eternally. Not in a day. It then went to whether there was the law of commandments to which i said there was no law. God said to obey His voice. In that whatever He tells us to do, we need to do without question or rebellion.

But because we couldn't and wouldn't, he wrote down his commandments so that there could be no mistake about what he had said to do. But this is only a part of the law. His word was law and what He speaks, even today is a commandment if we have ears to hear. SO yes, there was no written law before Sinai but only to follow the lead of His voice. That was the law.

He sent prophets with His law/will to which the people still rebelled and even killed some of the prophets. When He told Isaiah to walk naked before the people, that was also law to which Isaiah never questioned. Why? Because he had a RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. If God has said it, then we best believe it and do it as He has said, without question. I hope you understand that what God told Isaiah was law for it was spoken by God for him to do.

And lastly, I never said the law goes back to Noah but that God made a covenant of relationship with Noah. Not law.

hismessenger

 

[bugkiller]

LOL bugkiller, you didn't have to tell me that you had no clue.

I did not say I am clueless. I did say I have no clue what you are talkiing about. There is a difference. If there was a verbal law of God then there was a law and all mankind could be charged for its violation. If that is so then the law of Moses served no purpose. Romans points out that the law of Moses was so that all mankind could be charged. This law came 430 years after Abraham. There was no law previously. The law cames because of transgression. Yes sin was before the law. A result of sin brought about the law. It works the same way in our secular society. There is wrong doing and a law comes to punish that. Mankind generally has no ability to be reasonable. Since this law of God was verbal it can not be traced or inforced. It is a your word against my word deal. Denial is to easy and is in effective even with witnesses. One can easily construe anything any way they like. Lawyers are pretty good at it.

The next problem we have is the sabbath. It was given only to the COI at Sinai in the ten commandments. We have Jeremiah saying that God said there was coming a change in the law 31:31-33. It is on that scripture alone that I also said the fourth is no more. I also called on Hosea 2:11 to further my claim. The word cease is shabat is also used in Genesis 2:3 which is commonly used to promote the establishment of the shabbat (sabbath) at creation because the word rested is used.

This thread started out about whether the fourth commandment was done away with to which I answered yes. That Christ is the true sabbath and the day was only a shadow of Him. In Him we rest eternally. Not in a day. It then went to whether there was the law of commandments to which i said there was no law. God said to obey His voice. In that whatever He tells us to do, we need to do without question or rebellion.

But because we couldn't and wouldn't, he wrote down his commandments so that there could be no mistake about what he had said to do. But this is only a part of the law. His word was law and what He speaks, even today is a commandment if we have ears to hear. SO yes, there was no written law before Sinai but only to follow the lead of His voice. That was the law.

He sent prophets with His law/will to which the people still rebelled and even killed some of the prophets. When He told Isaiah to walk naked before the people, that was also law to which Isaiah never questioned. Why? Because he had a RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. If God has said it, then we best believe it and do it as He has said, without question. I hope you understand that what God told Isaiah was law for it was spoken by God for him to do.

And lastly, I never said the law goes back to Noah but that God made a covenant of relationship with Noah. Not law.

hismessenger

OK so we have had a bad misunderstanding. You are saying the Law of God is His voice and there is a difference in the Law of God written on stone and God is saying through Jeremiah He was going to change it again or back to what it was. I read a new not before law. I do agree it is about relationship with God. I also believe that law governs relationships whether spoken, written, even unspoken.

I am still interested in your support that a written Law came about because of our refusal to obey His voice. I think the Bible says other wise. Do you have such a scripture? Will you provide it? Jeremiah 7:12; 11:4 do not say such. Neither does Deut 4:12, 13 or 14. I did not find that obey My voice to be a law seperate from the Law of Moses - The Ten Commandments which were given orally first. Yes a covenant is effectively a law. A covenant with Noah and Abraham is not what is called or referred to as the law.

bugkiller

 

[Hismessenger]

bugkiller,

you asked for scripture to show how the law came about because of their refusal to obey His voice, here are a few;

Exd 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
Exd 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Exd 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:

Take note that He said obey my voice and keep my covenant, not His commandments for it was still about relationship with God. But then Go back to Jeremiah and see that He says because you would not keep my covenant nor obey my voice, 11:7&8. It makes it quite clear that they totally went the way they wanted to go because they did not understand the point of the covenant. Thus came the law. Now they had no choice but to obey or die.

hismessenger

 

[bugkiller]

bugkiller,

you asked for scripture to show how the law came about because of their refusal to obey His voice, here are a few;


Take note that He said obey my voice and keep my covenant, not His commandments for it was still about relationship with God. But then Go back to Jeremiah and see that He says because you would not keep my covenant nor obey my voice, 11:7&8. It makes it quite clear that they totally went the way they wanted to go because they did not understand the point of the covenant. Thus came the law. Now they had no choice but to obey or die.

hismessenger

Yes and note what was the covenant made at Sinai? It was not a verbal covenant only. It was conveyed both ways. I would say that Ex 19 is context for Ex 20. They were tested in chap 16 and failed. The scripture does not say the covenant was written because they did not obey His voice. And the Ten Commandments were given vocally prior to being engraved on stone. chap 20. They are the same vocal and written unless you have a scripture showing other wise.

bugkiller

 

[Hismessenger]

The covenant made with Noah had not much to do with Sinai. There was no rainbow in the Sinai covenant. There was no ten commandments in the Noahic covenant. See, God was still about and is still about relationship. What He told Noah was the same thing which he told the first Adam;

Gen 8:17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that [is] with thee, of all flesh, [both] of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.

So now I ask, do you hear requirement in this covenant? Answer, No. Is there requirement in the Covenant at Sinai? Answer, Yes. There is a definite difference because one is about relationship and the other is about requirement. Can you not see this?

hismessenger

 

[bugkiller]

The covenant made with Noah had not much to do with Sinai. There was no rainbow in the Sinai covenant. There was no ten commandments in the Noahic covenant. See, God was still about and is still about relationship. What He told Noah was the same thing which he told the first Adam;

Without reading the accounts to refresh my memory, I say not so.

So now I ask, do you hear requirement in this covenant? Answer, No. Is there requirement in the Covenant at Sinai? Answer, Yes. There is a definite difference because one is about relationship and the other is about requirement. Can you not see this?

hismessenger

No I really can not. The covenant with Noah is a different type of covenant than with the COI?. The covenant vocal and written with Israel is about relationship. God speaks of the relationship as divorce, Him being the husband and marriage. These are relationship terms. The NC is also about relationship and the terms are different.

bugkiller

 

[CJ Williams]

IMHO, it would be an odd thing indeed for ONE of the ten commandments to be done away with! The Sabbath goes back to creation, long before the law given at Sinai. Hebrews 4 makes the argument that because we still have the promise of entering the final rest of God, "thee remains therefore a sabbtah for the people of God." In other words, the sabbath/Lord's day was always meant to be a foretaste of our heavenly rest. As long as the promise remains, the foretaste remains.

Blessings,
CJ

 

[Duckybill]

Do we really have to obey the Sabbath commands? :

Exodus 31:14-17 (NKJV)
14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.' "

We'd need a LOT of body bags.

 

[visionary]

Do we really have to obey the Sabbath commands? :

Exodus 31:14-17 (NKJV)
14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.' "

We'd need a LOT of body bags.

Remember God has taken the rights to judge back.. so in our generation, we are not to perform the judgement, but understand that this is the decree God has ordained to perform Himself. Our place is to do as He tells us.