Is the Earth Flat?

[JohnEmmett]

I mean the … just right universe, with the just right galaxy, the right solar system, the just right star, the just right planet.

Right…

 

[BNR32FAN]

All you'd need to do is teach people their whole lives the earth is a globe and that anyone with a different opinion is stupid. Then everything is just conformed to the paradigm given. No massive cover-up needed. Sort of how entire generations have been taught we went to the moon, and now they not only believe the lie without question, but also defend it.

A century ago, schools were still teaching a flat earth. A change of educational material resulted in an established lie.

What schools and where are you getting this information from, the daily plane.com?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Since you spend time on a basically Christian Forum, you must see some relevance to the Bible, God, and the things talked about here.
Are you dedicated to proving Bible and God are not relevant?

I’ve often wondered if these people spend as much time refuting the existence of the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny?

 

[d taylor]

You are making a case against The Bible

Believing God created a flat and stationary earth, with the sun moon and stars moving over the earth in the dome.

Well you can to my list the the creation of man and women (from Adam) and all living things in a period of two 24 hr days, The world wide flood, the parting of the Red Sea, Joshua 10:12-15, the swallowing of Jonah for three day by a great fish. the resurrection of Jesus. The falling to earth the stars of the sky, the blacking of the moon and sun, The return of Jesus to rule the earth for 1000 years and the creation of a new heaven and earth.

 

[JohnEmmett]

Well

Buddhism has mythology too

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you have any idea how much money and how massive cover up this would take? Its technically impossible. People talk.

We have several astronomical observatories in our country. Are they paid liars, creating fake photos and videos all day long? What are you talking about?

Yep all of them are liars including all pilots, ship captains, freight companies, geographers, telecommunications technicians, astronomers, astronauts, automotive manufacturers (because somehow the odometers and speedometers have to be reconfigured to know your location in order to accurately display the incorrect mileage and speed so no one figures out how far they actually drove depending on if they’re in the “northern hemisphere” or “southern hemisphere” since Australia is actually 4 times larger than Asia and South America is roughly 4 times larger than North America), the military, certain parents and schools (because children either have to be indoctrinated from birth to know that the earth is flat and it’s a big secret they can’t tell anyone or they have to at some point be let in on the conspiracy and promise not to tell anyone, Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, all of them are keeping this big secret that nobody else knows.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm talking about there's no massive cover-up needed. Everyone just thinks and conforms to the paradigm theyve been taught. It really not that difficult of a concept. People are gullible, especially in groups.

How do they get the odometers and speedometers on vehicles to display the incorrect speed and distance that is necessary to compensate for the massive difference in distance traveled depending on whether they’re driving in an area close to the center of the disk or the outer area of the disk? Let me guess, they were hiding GPS components in model Ts the whole time?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Since you spend time on a basically Christian Forum, you must see some relevance to the Bible, God, and the things talked about here.

Here we go again. I came here to discuss pseudoscience because I followed a thread from a different forum here. Guess what were doing here -- Yep, that's right, we're discussing pseudoscience.

Are you dedicated to proving Bible and God are not relevant?

I don't need to prove this. Those things are just not relevant to the practice or conclusions of science. (Plus what a boring exercise that would be.)

I think when we come across God we are bound to touch some things which are wonderfully profound.
The more I am a Christian the more it makes sense to me that this Person of God involves some nearly incomprensible aspects.

Some might say "Define God. Give two or three examples." But a point is that God is Someone unique of which there IS no other example.
He is holy. He is like nothing else that exists. Some have used the example of people in a two dimensional world encountering a being of the three dimensional world. There is bound to be aspects of the latter that the former find hard to understand.

God is Father - Son - Holy Spirit. Each lives within the other - "coinherance."
I believe "eternal life" is not just endless in duration. I it also infinite in quality - a life supreme of infinite quality which had no beginning and no end. The Triune God makes sense to me.

I'm not really interested in theology.

I don't find it easier to believe the universe created itself. Then it would have to exist before it existed, which makes no sense to me.

The Universe, or rather its precursor, may have always existed. We just can't know.

And we have Someone in history who both spoke and acted like a totally unique person - Jesus.

If you say so.

Whoever designed the interactions of quantum phenomenon must be a Master of the extremely small.
The same Creator would be the Master of the extremely large.

Why do they need design?

I was once musing aloud to my then teenage son saying " I wonder what is a million times smaller than the smallest quark." He dryly remarked "My allowance."

Ahh, dad jokes. So far the most interesting part of your post. Let's continue...

Getting back to the matter. I have no choice but to believe the largest as well as the smallest systems were designed by the same Creator.

See my previous statement on the need for a designer.

Do I want Christ to be a quantum wave form?

My experience is that His help reaches me on a "quantum" level. I have had experiences where I needed Him to get from one day to the next. I have also enjoyed His help getting from one troubled hour to the next. I have also receive His supporting peace getting from one second to the next. And I have learned He is able to supply me with peace getting from one microsecond to the next.

So I would call Him "the Quantum Christ."

Please stop trying to apply quantum mechanics to things. You clearly don't know it.

Maybe so, like a self creating universe or an accidently arranging DNA molecule. Science fiction fantasy.

Both of these misunderstand the related claims and science.

No need to apologise to me.
I have already had my period in life getting a dubious rush from thinking God could not be.
It was kind of fun for awhile. "Just think of it! I don't believe there is God."

It is the dubious thrill of taking "Question Authority" to its ultimate point.

It has nothing to do with rebellion, neither my own lack of belief, nor the absence of "necessary gods" in science. Science operates to find natural explanations to natural phenomena. It is neutral to the existence of gods. As for me, it wasn't an act of rebellion. I just realized one day that I no longer believed and that was it.

But this 800 pound golden gorilla in the living room of history - Jesus Christ, is hard to ignore.

Christians are hard to ignore in the last 2000 years of history, but that is irrelevant to the process of science.

Taking about weak reasonings and weak conspiracy theories, trying to rationalize away Christ's words and life is weak.
And as for science, I think man is reading into the mechanics of the universe what a creating mind put into it.
He is way, way ahead of us.

The words of Jesus are even more irrelevant to the progress of science than Genesis and the latter leaves people to believe in ridiculous notions like a flat Earth.

I also think God placed us in the place in time and space where we have the greatest opportunity to observe the priviledged position
we occupy. I mean the right just right universe, with the just right galaxy, the right solar system, the just right star, the just right planet.

Life on Earth thrives in the place where it evolved to thrive. Shocking! (not)

The Privileged Planet

The really long version of the argument from "big number probabilities I don't know how to calculate, so I'll just make up some big numbers" plus a few bits of empty "philosophy". No thanks.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So what exactly happens in that observatory when you look through the telescope there?

Describe for me, how it all works. Is the telescope fake with only some prepared pictures in it?

Yeah it’s just like the ones in the toy store with the pictures of animals except it has pictures of stars and they’re more expensive. But it works the exact same way, just nobody has noticed.

 

[d taylor]

Buddhism has mythology too

-​

Buddhism is mythology

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Law of Perspective states that objects appear smaller as they becme more distant. There is a vast array of photographic evidence showing that the sun does not change in size as it travels across the sky, which demonstrates that the people making the claim you linked to have no idea what they are talking about. The very law they claim as proof of flat earth, utterly debunks their claims.

Yeah not to mention that their “explanation” has nothing to do with a sunset because if the sun doesn’t go below the horizon it will always be visible from any and every point on the planet even if it is a “flashlight” shining downward that still doesn’t explain why every morning and every evening we see half of the sun on the horizon. EVERYONE knows this, so it’s not a matter of comprehension, it’s a matter of just plain honesty.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yet you still cannot produce a model that works with everything we observe

Or even just a map that is to scale.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I've already described it to you. You are taught you are on a ball hurling through open space. That is your paradigm. Everything you see or hear from that point on is only understood by you within that framework because to you, there are no other explanations you will accept. Maybe think it over a bit until you understand.

What’s so hard to understand about a ball hurling thru space?

 

[oikonomia]

I’ve often wondered if these people spend as much time refuting the existence of the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny?

I have found that there is way more at stake to convince one's self that Christ should be dismissed.
I don't think you will find the same amount of effort to debunk mythologies. I think far less time and energy to debunk Thor, Isis, and Ra occurs on the Internet.

With some I find the game skeptics' plan is to innundate discussion with dazzling minutia about details of science.
Some feel scoring points on the behavior of some little amino acid or other tiny technicalities is enough to stave off larger issues of one's need for forgiveness of sins from God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have found that there is way more at stake to convince one's self that Christ should be dismissed.
I don't think you will find the same amount of effort to debunk mythologies. I think far less time and energy to debunk Thor, Isis, and Ra occurs on the Internet.

With some I find the game skeptics' plan is to innundate discussion with dazzling minutia about details of science.
Some feel scoring points on the behavior of some little amino acid or other tiny technicalities is enough to stave off larger issues of one's need for forgiveness of sins from God.

Yeah that’s why I have most atheists on ignore. I don’t come here to talk to atheists.

 

[Hans Blaster]

This statement is, as far as I can tell, about as accurate as the Flat Earth claims. I suppose it's more popular than Flat Earth, but that doesn't make it more accurate.

Now, you do make a follow up on this and explain things in a little more detail:


Before getting into the particulars, one is struck by what seems an obvious issue with this idea that, for about a thousand years, science was being suppressed in Europe. Namely, if this is the case, then why didn't the rest of the world surge ahead markedly with this thousand-year head start? The Church did absolutely no suppression in North and South America or most of Africa (it had absolutely no contact with those areas, in fact). With an extra thousand years of scientific development, you'd think they would have gone to the moon, or at least invented steam ships.

This "moon" and "steamship" claim completely ignores the cumulative and accelerationist nature of knowledge. It falls in the same category as arguments against the age of humanity claiming "if it took only 10,000 to go from agriculture to cell phones, why did humans just use simple stone tools for 200,000 years, clearly humans have only been around for 10,000 years and the rest is a bunch of lies".

And the Arab clearly were ahead of Europe (at least the parts they didn't control) at their peak, perhaps the Indians and Chinese were as well.

Was my claim in post #1460 a bit abrupt, sure, but I was just trying to get out of a dumb philosophical argument and stepped in a dumb historical argument.

As for the more specific things, I don't like to just repeat what others have said better than I have. Some fairly good, if long, essays on the subject by Tim O'Neil (an atheist, so no pro-church bias there) can be found here:

"The Dark Ages" the Middle Ages andPeriodisation

“When the Pope ruled England, them was called the Dark Ages!”(East London street orator, reported by Herbert Butterfield, 1931) The concept of “the Dark Ages” is central to several key elements in New Atheist Bad History. One of the primary myths most beloved by many New Atheists is the one...

historyforatheists.com

The Great Myths 13: The Renaissance Myth - History for Atheists

Many of my fellow atheists operate with a simplistic children’s picture book view of the past. This is one where the glories of Greece and Rome are destroyed and suppressed by the Medieval Church, but civilisation is saved by the geniuses of the Renaissance, whose revival of ancient thought...

historyforatheists.com

(he has as number of articles on topics like this, but the above are the two most pertinent)

The first one is, admittedly, meant more specifically as a response to something that someone else wrote, but it nevertheless covers the important factors concerning the supposed suppression of science. The second one is more standalone and addresses more specifically the idea of the Renaissance as being some kind of waking up from the previous suppression (or, as you wrote it, that science only "returns and recovers in the late medieval period/Renaissance when revived by outside influences").

Europeans clearly lagged for a long period after the fall of the Roman empire. What caused it to recover? Was it some sort of theological innovation? I don't think so. There were a series of theological/philosophical claims about how christian theology and philosophy provides the backing given in post #1453, to which I responded in post #1457. There just isn't a Christian theological basis to the scientific understanding of nature. This makes it hard for Christianity to be responsible for the explosion of science.

 

[oikonomia]

I never said creation descriptions were only in Genesis. I mean you even posted a verse that states, God laid the earths foundation, a globe has no foundations.

I think I understand what is being said there.

Your verse about the rapture is read the way you read it because you have been influenced by science and you bring the idea of a rotating sphere into this verse. There is no place in The Bible that supports a rotating earth.

Is it basically wrong for a Christian to be influenced by science in his appreciation of something the Bible said?
Do you have some 11th commandment "Thou Shalt Not Understand Anything in the Bible With An Influence Of Science"?

I mean even the word earth in The Bible does not mean a rotating water covered sphere. Earth simply means land/ground.

Joshua 10:12-15

I don't think God intended Genesis one to be an exhaustive account of how He did everything and how everything works.
If that had been the case perhaps the 66 books of the Bible would have been on a small section of describing the nature of a water molecule. It would have been a much larger library to exhaustively explain many things about the physical world.

With economical words the seer (who was not there obviously) records how God revealed to Him the most important things about creation.
Especially He showed ( Moses and / or Adam) what the most relevant things about creation to man's purpose in God's plan.

I don't take Genesis as a exhaustive detailed explanation of all God created and how.
I see that there is order not damaged and chaos.
I see He prepared all things for the crown of His creation - humanity.
I see He did this in a specific cycle of time as we now measure it.
I see that life ascends until it reaches the climax - a man made in the image and likeness of God.

I think the vision was shown to the seer in a orderly manner - seven days.
Elsewhere in the Bible it appears there was a pre-Adamic age.
Because God's interest is with man and not the pre-Adamic world, scant little is revealed about that EXCEPT what is critical for His church to know. That is mainly that before man was given deputy authority over God's creation another creature who became Satan had that position.

I believe man was created to replace that pre-Adamic authority.
This would also go to explain the intense jealousy and opposition of this former rebel towards man.

I do not believe that while Adam was in the garden somewhere untold us was great and marvelous anounted cherub ALSO endowed with authority over the earth. What we see latter in Ezekiel and Isaiah of the Daystar or Anointed Cherub who became Satan, is "pre-Adam."
His creation and career were not simultaneous with the six days. The pre-date that time.

God tells us little about that time besides what is important for us to know.
He doesn't care about that age any longer.
He cares for man in the image of God according to His likeness.
His eternal purpose is with man. He became a man that man might become God in life and nature but not in His Godhead.

This is an overview of the whole Bible.
God became man so that man might become God in life and in nature but not in His Fatherhood or Godhead.

 

[Lost4words]

Imagine God creating a flat earth and everything else, planets, moons, stars he created round!! Why? Doesnt make any sense at all...

 

[oikonomia]

Here we go again. I came here to discuss pseudoscience because I followed a thread from a different forum here. Guess what were doing here -- Yep, that's right, we're discussing pseudoscience.

I think you should consider seriously the need to let Jesus come into your heart.
My prayer and goal is nothing sneaky. I am here hoping you won't allow anything to interfere with being saved through Jesus.

I'm not really interested in theology.

But you are very curious about the universe.
And I think a major part of the curiosity is you want to know what it means to your existence.
Or at least you want to know how we can channel the laws of nature to make life better for ourselves.

I think the science intereprise is more than just curiousity. I think the questions of how we can harness the laws of nature
to do such things are make our life better.

Look at the creation of AI. Isn't the aim of space exploration, computers, biology, chemistry mostly a quest to improve by knowledge our lot in life?

God is interested in this. So I think some equal time you should give to considering Theos.

Why do they need design?

Things like a DNA molecule don't happen by accident. No matter how much time you allow for it.
If you can't see that then you must be in denial.

Ahh, dad jokes. So far the most interesting part of your post. Let's continue...

See my previous statement on the need for a designer.

A second look at your statement will do what?

Please stop trying to apply quantum mechanics to things. You clearly don't know it.

I don't have to be an expert.
You can dazzle us with how much more you know about physics.
You can score lots of points on tiny details about it you know more about than me.
That doesn't impress me about the big picture. Its reveals laws. Laws require a Legislator.

It has nothing to do with rebellion, neither my own lack of belief, nor the absence of "necessary gods" in science. Science operates to find natural explanations to natural phenomena. It is neutral to the existence of gods. As for me, it wasn't an act of rebellion. I just realized one day that I no longer believed and that was it.

You had no subjective experience with the Holy Spirit.
You had not sense of His great love poured out into your heart.

You are spirit and soul and body - three parts.
Your spiritual part is comatose, deadened.
It is dead because of sins. The wall of separation between you and the living God is your sins.
Before you were born God made provision for the removal of this obstacle, this barrier.

I think you should give some equal time with your curiosity about how stuff works to how God has made
loving provision for your salvation.

I tnink no matter how much you discover even legitimatly about how the universe works, an emptiness about why you are here will remain.
I think you won't have the deeper peace of knowing the love of the Father.
I think as a scientist you will be in good company with other scientists who have opened their hearts to receive this Savior God.

Christians are hard to ignore in the last 2000 years of history, but that is irrelevant to the process of science.

Still His eternal power and divine characteristics are testified to.
Should another 2000 years of more knowledge be secured, I don't think that realization will be diminished.

The words of Jesus are even more irrelevant to the progress of science than Genesis and the latter leaves people to believe in ridiculous notions like a flat Earth.

Well I would not argue for a flat earth here. I think we know better.

Christ's words are relevant for why we are here - as objects of His love, as objects of His desire that we eternally enjoy that love.
To really understand the universe you have to know all about the Son of God and the eternal purpose of the Creator.

Life on Earth thrives in the place where it evolved to thrive. Shocking! (not)

Why ?
Its just that way for no reason?

All around does not have thriving life. Everywhere else is hostile to a thriving place such as earth.
I mean you can distract from this question by totally occupying yourself with the mechanics of it all.

Recently someone said the more he studied how it all works the more pointless it all appeared.

The really long version of the argument from "big number probabilities I don't know how to calculate, so I'll just make up some big numbers" plus a few bits of empty "philosophy". No thanks.

"All the really smart people are atheist" arguments have never impressed me.
Arrogants has not impressed me in this.

"All the really smart people are ________" doesn't work for either thiests or atheists.
Silly examples of logic can be seen from atheists as well as theists.

You didn't stop studying physics because of some poor examples of unsound reasoning in that realm.
You loved it. You hung around those who encouraged your pursuit and avoided those who discouraged it.

I look for people of faith in all realms of life who will encourage my love for God.
I don't hunt for the ones who discourage it with bad reasoning.

Though Albert Einstien was not a fundamentalist evangelical Christian, he did say how could he not believe in God.
He did say it would be an insult to him to even ask him if he believed in God.
Anthony Flew a renown atheist and author of many books on it finally had to take a deist position that there must be a designer.

Discouraged atheists made the excuse that he just got old.
No, he just decided his human conscience informed him of the truth.
I think he finally decided to stop supressing and holding down where the evidence pointed.
Things like a DNA molecule don't come together by lucky happenstance.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I think you should consider seriously the need to let Jesus come into your heart.
My prayer and goal is nothing sneaky. I am here hoping you won't allow anything to interfere with being saved through Jesus.

Pass.

But you are very curious about the universe.

Yeah, so?

And I think a major part of the curiosity is you want to know what it means to your existence.
Or at least you want to know how we can channel the laws of nature to make life better for ourselves.

Please don't assume things about other people's motivations.

I think the science intereprise is more than just curiousity. I think the questions of how we can harness the laws of nature
to do such things are make our life better.

That's another reason to pursue scientific knowledge. Certainly not less important than others.

Look at the creation of AI.

Not science.

Isn't the aim of space exploration, computers, biology, chemistry mostly a quest to improve by knowledge our lot in life?

Sure, why not.

God is interested in this.

If you say so, but I'm not interested in god.

So I think some equal time you should give to considering Theos.

I don't care what you think I should do.

Things like a DNA molecule don't happen by accident. No matter how much time you allow for it.

This isn't the thread for explaining such things, nor am I the person to do it.

If you can't see that then you must be in denial.

Nope. Especially when we have natural mechanisms.

A second look at your statement will do what?

Explain that I already covered nature not needing a designer.

I don't have to be an expert.
You can dazzle us with how much more you know about physics.

I'm glad you feel dazzled, but I've barely even mentioned physics. You should see me at my best...

You can score lots of points on tiny details about it you know more about than me.

The points are from people liking my posts.

That doesn't impress me about the big picture. Its reveals laws. Laws require a Legislator.

Scientific laws are descriptive. Just humanity's description of the pattern of behavior observed. They do require an observer and a compiler, but those people are known. (And often have their names on the laws: Ohm's Law, Boyle's Law, Lenz's Law, etc.)

You had no subjective experience with the Holy Spirit.
You had not sense of His great love poured out into your heart.

You make that claim without knowing me. You should really stop that. (But, not that it is your business, I never felt the Holy Spirt, despite 25 years of active participation in Christianity. I wonder why that was...)

You are spirit and soul and body - three parts.
Your spiritual part is comatose, deadened.

I have body and the brain part of the body has consciousness. I've never seen any evidence for anything beyond that.

It is dead because of sins. The wall of separation between you and the living God is your sins.
Before you were born God made provision for the removal of this obstacle, this barrier.

I gave up on sin when I gave up on God 20 years ago. I have no need for either and I am just fine this way.

I think you should give some equal time with your curiosity about how stuff works to how God has made
loving provision for your salvation.

I did once look into the origins of the Bible and Christianity and look where I ended up -- outside.

I tnink no matter how much you discover even legitimatly about how the universe works, an emptiness about why you are here will remain.

Stop telling me what I feel. You don't know me and clearly you have no comprehension of life without faith. It's not that bad really. No worse than the alternative.

I think you won't have the deeper peace of knowing the love of the Father.

This isn't about my father.

I think as a scientist you will be in good company with other scientists who have opened their hearts to receive this Savior God.

We don't discuss religion amongst ourselves. That is a private matter and the best place to keep it.

Still His eternal power and divine characteristics are testified to.
Should another 2000 years of more knowledge be secured, I don't think that realization will be diminished.

Well I would not argue for a flat earth here. I think we know better.

Christ's words are relevant for why we are here - as objects of His love, as objects of His desire that we eternally enjoy that love.
To really understand the universe you have to know all about the Son of God and the eternal purpose of the Creator.

Will this preaching never end?

Why ?
Its just that way for no reason?

There is no apparent reason for why.

All around does not have thriving life. Everywhere else is hostile to a thriving place such as earth.

I really look forward to life on other planets. It will obliterate this silly argument.

I mean you can distract from this question by totally occupying yourself with the mechanics of it all.

I am a physicist and not a biologist after all.

Recently someone said the more he studied how it all works the more pointless it all appeared.


"All the really smart people are atheist" arguments have never impressed me.
Arrogants has not impressed me in this.

No one made that argument.

"All the really smart people are ________" doesn't work for either thiests or atheists.
Silly examples of logic can be seen from atheists as well as theists.

Or that one. (What do you call a group of strawmen?)

You didn't stop studying physics because of some poor examples of unsound reasoning in that realm.
You loved it. You hung around those who encouraged your pursuit and avoided those who discouraged it.

Again, quite trying to interpret my story without actually knowing anything. This is all just you building some narrative about me based on the fact that I stated my profession earlier in the thread and my "faith status" is listed under my avatar. (As Gnrl. Sherman said "War is cruelty and I shall not endeavor to refine it." or there abouts)

I look for people of faith in all realms of life who will encourage my love for God.
I don't hunt for the ones who discourage it with bad reasoning.

I think you might be in the wrong board. This isn't the recruitment section.

Though Albert Einstien was not a fundamentalist evangelical Christian, he did say how could he not believe in God.
He did say it would be an insult to him to even ask him if he believed in God.

And you point?

Anthony Flew a renown atheist and author of many books on it finally had to take a deist position that there must be a designer.

You guys really love you some Antony Flew don't ya? The only people who ever mention him are you'se guys as if it will some how convince us to convert to ... (checks quote...) deism. Ooooh deism, so much for the "god loves you" stuff, cause the deistic god certainly doesn't care. (Nor do I.)

Discouraged atheists made the excuse that he just got old.
No, he just decided his human conscience informed him of the truth.
I think he finally decided to stop supressing and holding down where the evidence pointed.
Things like a DNA molecule don't come together by lucky happenstance.

Are you still talking about Flew? Give it a rest.