Is the Earth Flat?

[PIckleRelations]

LIGO has observatories at both Hanford and Livingston.
Each observatory has two interferometer arms perpendicular to each other.
It's an amazing coincidence that each arm should deviate by the same degree as a result of a "small hill".

But it is the simplest explanation. Other explanations could include that it isn't true at all, but a lie repeated until it gained validity.

 

[sjastro]

But it is the simplest explanation. Other explanations could include that it isn't true at all, but a lie repeated until it gained validity.

These small hills would have to be perfectly symmetrical domes for the curvature to be the same in both directions of the interferometer arms.
Then there is the further complication the domes need to be exactly the same at Hanford and Livingston.
It is clearly not the simplest explanation but a highly improbable one.

The explanation that it’s all a lie is a typical anti-intellectual rant.
It’s ironical one of the principal researchers at LIGO that I communicate with occasionally has not been a victim of direct anti-intellectual attack but has stated hostility towards the science of gravitational waves has come from flat earth groups.

Hello Steven,

I would say no particular anti-intellectualism in response to my professional activities. There is some hostility around gravitational waves from various flat-earth-related groups, but I have mostly avoided that. Talking about discrimination in science or society (say sexism or racism) typically draws more of a negative response on social. Even just posting for International Women In Science Day with no comment about sexism will draw criticism.

What is perhaps more common, is people with pet theories expecting large amounts of time. Say read long text, select a course of reading material, explain misconceptions, etc. All these are part of an academic's job, but can take many, many hours, which isn't feasible when we have students and our own projects to look after. Some people have nice FAQs on this topic (Katie Mack and Emily Lakdawalla I think may be good examples if I remember correctly). People are generally OK if you explain that you don't have time, but sometimes they just think you're being rude, which does cause aggravation.

Regards,

Christopher

--
Christopher Berry
CIERA Board of Visitors Research Professor
Northwestern University

 

[PIckleRelations]

These small hills would have to be perfectly symmetrical domes for the curvature to be the same in both directions of the interferometer arms.
Then there is the further complication the domes need to be exactly the same at Hanford and Livingston.
It is clearly not the simplest explanation but a highly improbable one.

The explanation that it’s all a lie is a typical anti-intellectual rant.
It’s ironical one of the principal researchers at LIGO that I communicate with occasionally has not been a victim of direct anti-intellectual attack but has stated hostility towards the science of gravitational waves has come from flat earth groups.

It's the simplest because you aren't living on a ball.

 

[Hans Blaster]

It's the simplest because you aren't living on a ball.

Like you I live on a roughly spherical planet held together by its own gravity.

 

[sjastro]

It's the simplest because you aren't living on a ball.

No you said the simplest explanation for having to account for curvature was the Hanford and Livingston observatories were on small hills.
Since this has been shown to be not simple at all you have defaulted to denial mode which is the behavioral pattern observed in flat earthers.

 

[prodromos]

It's the simplest because you aren't living on a ball.

Of course not! It's an oblate spheroid.

 

[d taylor]

But it is the simplest explanation. Other explanations could include that it isn't true at all, but a lie repeated until it gained validity.

...Concerning God's creation, i see no reason i should share the same faith in science as an atheist does. Just as an atheist should not share the same faith i have in God about His creation.

Just like God reserved Jewish believers who did not bow to Baal. God has reserved and is reserving believers who are not bowing to the science god, concerning God's creation.

Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

 

[trophy33]

...Concerning God's creation, i see no reason i should share the same faith in science as an atheist does. Just as an atheist should not share the same faith i have in God about His creation.

Just like God reserved Jewish believers who did not bow to Baal. God has reserved and is reserving believers who are not bowing to the science god, concerning God's creation.

Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

You are still mentioning atheists, but science is from Christians. The search for truth in a stable creation is historically the Christian worldview.

And interestingly enough, the highest percentage of Christian scientists is in astronomy.

 

[Lost4words]

You are still mentioning atheists, but science is from Christians. The search for truth in a stable creation is historically the Christian worldview.

And interestingly enough, the highest percentage of Christian scientists is in astronomy.

So true.

 

[Occams Barber]

And interestingly enough, the highest percentage of Christian scientists is in astronomy.

I found this an interesting and surprising comment.

Do you have a link to the survey/poll which shows this? I recall seeing something suggesting that biologists may have been the least Christian but I don't recollect where astronomers sat.

OB

 

[PIckleRelations]

...Concerning God's creation, i see no reason i should share the same faith in science as an atheist does. Just as an atheist should not share the same faith i have in God about His creation.

Just like God reserved Jewish believers who did not bow to Baal. God has reserved and is reserving believers who are not bowing to the science god, concerning God's creation.

Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

On one hand, there are flat-earthers who are not Christians. They've just seen the abundance of evidence supporting the claim, as well as flimsy ball-earth evidence, and was able to set ego aside and admit they were wrong.

On the other hand, there are just so many testimonies I've seen over the years of those who realized the earth was actually flat and God used that knowledge to reveal Himself and save them. I probably read at least several hundred of these by 2017. No telling how many there's been since then.

I do understand the desire to be part of the crowd can be strong. Like the old saying goes, nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd. I always think of the Logos Bible Software people, who came out with their diagram of how the earth is depicted in the OT, flat, pillars, dome, the whole thing, then those speaking for them, such as the late Dr. Michael Heiser, who actually stated that the Bible is most definitely a flat earth book, but that God was just telling the Jews what they could understand at the time because 'ball' was apparently too hard of a concept. He gave into to the lie of the day over the truth of scriptures.

 

[PIckleRelations]

No you said the simplest explanation for having to account for curvature was the Hanford and Livingston observatories were on small hills.
Since this has been shown to be not simple at all you have defaulted to denial mode which is the behavioral pattern observed in flat earthers.

The earth is flat, and any explanation given needs to conform to that fact. Your explanation does not.

 

[Lost4words]

The earth is flat, and any explanation given needs to conform to that fact. Your explanation does not.

The earth is def not flat. There is no credible evidence to back that up. None.

Flat earth movement has and is suckering people with pure fantasy and totally unscientific 'data'.

The gullible will keep on being gullible! They will keep on falling for the complete and utter lies of a flat earth!

 

[PIckleRelations]

The earth is def not flat. There is no credible evidence to back that up. None.

Flat earth movement has and is suckering people with pure fantasy and totally unscientific 'data'.

The gullible will keep on being gullible! They will keep on falling for the complete and utter lies of a flat earth!

Ok.

 

[d taylor]

You are still mentioning atheists, but science is from Christians. The search for truth in a stable creation is historically the Christian worldview.

And interestingly enough, the highest percentage of Christian scientists is in astronomy.

-​

Science came out of pagan societies Egyptians and Greeks. The first person to propose a spherical earth was a Greek who was more than likely a pagan or atheist

 

[d taylor]

On one hand, there are flat-earthers who are not Christians. They've just seen the abundance of evidence supporting the claim, as well as flimsy ball-earth evidence, and was able to set ego aside and admit they were wrong.

On the other hand, there are just so many testimonies I've seen over the years of those who realized the earth was actually flat and God used that knowledge to reveal Himself and save them. I probably read at least several hundred of these by 2017. No telling how many there's been since then.

I do understand the desire to be part of the crowd can be strong. Like the old saying goes, nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd. I always think of the Logos Bible Software people, who came out with their diagram of how the earth is depicted in the OT, flat, pillars, dome, the whole thing, then those speaking for them, such as the late Dr. Michael Heiser, who actually stated that the Bible is most definitely a flat earth book, but that God was just telling the Jews what they could understand at the time because 'ball' was apparently too hard of a concept. He gave into to the lie of the day over the truth of scriptures.

Right there is the flat earth society and people like Eric Dubay who to my knowledge are not born again believers.

I have seen the videos on youtube with these atheist testimonies I personally do not know any atheist coming to be a born again believer. So i am not sure, i take youtube videos with skepticism even from people who are saying they are flat earth believers.

Not sure if you have seen these two articles about the creation in The Bible. This is from a person who is not a flat earth believer, but he does state that is the description that The Bible gives.

https://www.godawa.com/chronicles_o...s_By_Others/Seely-3-Geo_Meaning_Earth_Sea.pdf

https://www.godawa.com/chronicles_o..._By_Others/Seely-1-Firmament_and_Waters_1.pdf

Also not sure if you have seen this video, this person is not a flat earth person

 

[PIckleRelations]

Right there is the flat earth society and people like Eric Dubay who to my knowledge are not born again believers.

I have seen the videos on youtube with these atheist testimonies I personally do not know any atheist coming to be a born again believer. So i am not sure, i take youtube videos with skepticism even from people who are saying they are flat earth believers.

Not sure if you have seen these two articles about the creation in The Bible. This is from a person who is not a flat earth believer, but he does state that is the description that The Bible gives.

https://www.godawa.com/chronicles_o...s_By_Others/Seely-3-Geo_Meaning_Earth_Sea.pdf

https://www.godawa.com/chronicles_o..._By_Others/Seely-1-Firmament_and_Waters_1.pdf

Also not sure if you have seen this video, this person is not a flat earth person

Thanks. I'm not certain if I'm familiar with these sources or not. I'll be able to check them out later today.

 

[HantsUK]

...Concerning God's creation, i see no reason i should share the same faith in science as an atheist does. Just as an atheist should not share the same faith i have in God about His creation.

Just like God reserved Jewish believers who did not bow to Baal. God has reserved and is reserving believers who are not bowing to the science god, concerning God's creation.

Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

Science is the study of God's creation. According to Scripture, creation reveals the Creator.

Atheists happen to share the same universe that you and I share. Truth does not depend on the observer, so if an Atheist discovers something about creation, being an Atheist does not make that discovery or understanding wrong. I worship the creator, not the creation. Atheists claim to not worship anyone or anything, and that the universe exists because it just does.

D Taylor's views are based on a very particular understanding of how he reads, and he dismisses 'science' as this is incompatible with his interpretation . So there is no point in making any arguments based on physical observations or explanations (theories) using maths (which is the language of science).

Other Flat Earthers do look at the physical evidence we see around us, but come to a completely different conclusion.

 

[prodromos]

On one hand, there are flat-earthers who are not Christians. They've just seen the abundance of evidence supporting the claim, as well as flimsy ball-earth evidence, and was able to set ego aside and admit they were wrong.

So those who believe the earth is a globe orbiting a star which is just one star among millions in our galaxy which is just one among innumerable others throughout the universe, which testifies to how great God is, they are egotistical, whereas those who believe in a single terrarium containing everything visible, they are the humble ones? Gotcha.

On the other hand, there are just so many testimonies I've seen over the years of those who realized the earth was actually flat and God used that knowledge to reveal Himself and save them. I probably read at least several hundred of these by 2017. No telling how many there's been since then.

So numbers of adherents is a positive argument?

I do understand the desire to be part of the crowd can be strong. Like the old saying goes, nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd.

Wait, so numbers of adherents is not a positive argument?
You can't have it both ways.

 

[sjastro]

The earth is flat, and any explanation given needs to conform to that fact. Your explanation does not.

This is complete utter nonsense as it is based on a circular argument.
My explanations based on evidence lead to the conclusion the Earth is not flat.
You don't start off with the conclusion and work backwards looking for explanations the earth is flat, particularly when the evidence contradicts the conclusion.