Aren't we death before being baptized in Christ?If the martyrs in Revelation 20:4 are resurrected after death though, this would indicate they are baptized after death. I for one haven't heard of such a thing as that. I don't recall reading anywhere in the Bible that saints are baptized after death. The point being, the text seems to indicate they are resurrected after death, and not before death instead.
If you read the rest of the scripture it continues on...Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
If it is after death only a bodily resurrection appears to be applicable. If it is before death only a spiritual resurrection appears to be applicable.
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
This is the first resurrection
The text states this----and I saw the souls of them
Then the text goes on to state this----and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
How should that be understood?
Like such?
and the souls of them lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
Or like such instead?
and the bodily resurrected martyrs lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
One thing we do know is this, or at least we should if we don't. and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years---equals this---This is the first resurrection.
What does this at least tell us? That the first resurrection can't precede nor follow the thousand years. One can't reign with Christ a thousand years before the thousand years even begin. Nor can one reign with Christ a thousand years when the thousand years have expired. This would indicate, assuming the first resurrection is spiritual, meaning when one is initially saved in this age, no one can be saved during satan's little season in that case. The reason being, you can't have the first resurrection without the reigning of a thousand years. satan's little season is after the thousand years.
The question then is this. The martyrs in Revelation 20:4, are they already reigning with Christ a thousand years when they are initially martyred? Or because they have been martyred, they then reign with Christ a thousand years at some later point in the future?
The former would imply that the martyred are resurrected while they are still physically alive. The latter would imply they are resurrected after they have already physically died first. The former would fit a position such as Amil. The latter, a position such as Premil. The way the text reads to me, it is the latter. And I'm not just saying that because I'm Premil. I'm saying that because that is literally how the text reads to me.
When Jesus returns there are still lost people as part of the beast's armies still physically alive and not even dead yet. And once they end up dead, they have to be raised back to life in order to be present at the GWTJ. Can't do that if the resurrection of the unjust already preceded their deaths.
All of that is found in Revelation 11:18.
First we have the "wrath" come upon the nations, which would be the living.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come,
Then we have "the time of the judgment of the dead".
and the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
Which includes "reward" for some.
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;
and others will be "destroyed".
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
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Why did you stop at verse 18 though? What about verse 19? There is no earthquake and great hail occurring at the GWTJ. Obviously the earthquake and great hail involves the destroying of them which destroy the earth. You don't rain hail on people already dead, you rain hail on people still alive.
Another question would be, why are you trying to ignore "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18?
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
A second question would be, if events are occurring simultaneously, does it sometimes take several pages of text to describe that event? Ask a police officer who has to describe a multi-vehicle traffic fatality.
If the Second Coming of Christ is found in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, do you think the Book of Revelation is in chronological order?
Is the hail also described in chapter 16?
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Is fire described in chapter 20, as described by Paul at the Second Coming of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Is fire described on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief" in 2 Peter 3:10-13?
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I'm not ignoring the time of the dead. It is apparently meaning the time of the dead in regards to the saved and not the lost as well. Because if it was meaning the time of the lost dead as well, that would indicate the GWTJ would have to be in view here.
If the Second Coming of Christ is found in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, do you think the Book of Revelation is in chronological order?
Is the hail also described in chapter 16?
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Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men werehttps://www.christianforums.com/attachments/upload?hash=b8e09a324fe9764516280023f5495cae&content_type=post&content_data[thread_id]=8119885 upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Is fire described in chapter 20, as described by Paul at the Second Coming of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Is fire described on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief" in 2 Peter 3:10-13?
.
How many times I have I already told you now that I don't see Revelation being in chronological order from start to finish? I may have to put it in my Signature that I don't believe Revelation is chronological from start to finish---lol.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
If it is after death only a bodily resurrection appears to be applicable. If it is before death only a spiritual resurrection appears to be applicable.
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
This is the first resurrection
The text states this----and I saw the souls of them
Then the text goes on to state this----and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
How should that be understood?
Like such?
and the souls of them lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
Or like such instead?
and the bodily resurrected martyrs lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
One thing we do know is this, or at least we should if we don't. and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years---equals this---This is the first resurrection.
What does this at least tell us? That the first resurrection can't precede nor follow the thousand years. One can't reign with Christ a thousand years before the thousand years even begin. Nor can one reign with Christ a thousand years when the thousand years have expired. This would indicate, assuming the first resurrection is spiritual, meaning when one is initially saved in this age, no one can be saved during satan's little season in that case. The reason being, you can't have the first resurrection without the reigning of a thousand years. satan's little season is after the thousand years.
The question then is this. The martyrs in Revelation 20:4, are they already reigning with Christ a thousand years when they are initially martyred? Or because they have been martyred, they then reign with Christ a thousand years at some later point in the future?
The former would imply that the martyred are resurrected while they are still physically alive. The latter would imply they are resurrected after they have already physically died first. The former would fit a position such as Amil. The latter, a position such as Premil. The way the text reads to me, it is the latter. And I'm not just saying that because I'm Premil. I'm saying that because that is literally how the text reads to me.
If the above is the truth, then you should have given up on your 1,000 year earthly reign of Christ after His Second Coming.
The idea cannot work unless the book is in chronological order.
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You are being ridiculous here. And I will prove it. What about Revelation 21, per your perspective? Since the book is not in chronological order, this should mean that even you don't think the NHNE chronologically follows the GWTJ in that case. Yet, I bet you do think it does though. When Premils conclude Revelation 20 chronologically follows Revelation 19, you give the impression there is no such thing in the book of Revelation where the events in one chapter chronologically continues in the next chapter, while at the same time you do believe there is such a thing.
A resurrection, as the scripture describes it, always refers to a literal, bodily resurrection. I have not yet found any passages that apply resurrection in any other way.
What would you call it when a person who was dead comes to life?
John 5:24
(CJB) Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever hears what I am saying and trusts the One who sent me has eternal life -- that is, he will not come up for judgment but has already crossed over from death to life!
(ESV) Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
(Geneva) Verely, verely I say vnto you, he that heareth my worde, and beleeueth him that sent me, hath euerlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but hath passed from death vnto life.
(Greek NT TR) αμην αμην λεγω υμιν οτι ο τον λογον μου ακουων και πιστευων τω πεμψαντι με εχει ζωην αιωνιον και εις κρισιν ουκ ερχεται αλλα μεταβεβηκεν εκ του θανατου εις την ζωην
(GW) I can guarantee this truth: Those who listen to what I say and believe in the one who sent me will have eternal life. They won't be judged because they have already passed from death to life.
(LITV-TSP) Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
(KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(KJV+) Verily,G281 verily,G281 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 (G3754) He that hearethG191 myG3450 word,G3056 andG2532 believethG4100 on him that sentG3992 me,G3165 hathG2192 everlastingG166 life,G2222 andG2532 shall notG3756 comeG2064 intoG1519 condemnation;G2920 butG235 is passedG3327 fromG1537 deathG2288 untoG1519 life.G2222
(NKJV) "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
(YLT) 'Verily, verily, I say to you—He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.
.
What would you call it when a person who was dead comes to life?
John 5:24
(CJB) Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever hears what I am saying and trusts the One who sent me has eternal life -- that is, he will not come up for judgment but has already crossed over from death to life!
(ESV) Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
(Geneva) Verely, verely I say vnto you, he that heareth my worde, and beleeueth him that sent me, hath euerlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but hath passed from death vnto life.
(Greek NT TR) αμην αμην λεγω υμιν οτι ο τον λογον μου ακουων και πιστευων τω πεμψαντι με εχει ζωην αιωνιον και εις κρισιν ουκ ερχεται αλλα μεταβεβηκεν εκ του θανατου εις την ζωην
(GW) I can guarantee this truth: Those who listen to what I say and believe in the one who sent me will have eternal life. They won't be judged because they have already passed from death to life.
(LITV-TSP) Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
(KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(KJV+) Verily,G281 verily,G281 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 (G3754) He that hearethG191 myG3450 word,G3056 andG2532 believethG4100 on him that sentG3992 me,G3165 hathG2192 everlastingG166 life,G2222 andG2532 shall notG3756 comeG2064 intoG1519 condemnation;G2920 butG235 is passedG3327 fromG1537 deathG2288 untoG1519 life.G2222
(NKJV) "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
(YLT) 'Verily, verily, I say to you—He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.
.
What would you call it when a person who was dead comes to life?
John 5:24
(CJB) Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever hears what I am saying and trusts the One who sent me has eternal life -- that is, he will not come up for judgment but has already crossed over from death to life!
(KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
What would you call it when a person who was dead comes to life?
John 5:24
(CJB) Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever hears what I am saying and trusts the One who sent me has eternal life -- that is, he will not come up for judgment but has already crossed over from death to life!
(ESV) Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
(Geneva) Verely, verely I say vnto you, he that heareth my worde, and beleeueth him that sent me, hath euerlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but hath passed from death vnto life.
(Greek NT TR) αμην αμην λεγω υμιν οτι ο τον λογον μου ακουων και πιστευων τω πεμψαντι με εχει ζωην αιωνιον και εις κρισιν ουκ ερχεται αλλα μεταβεβηκεν εκ του θανατου εις την ζωην
(GW) I can guarantee this truth: Those who listen to what I say and believe in the one who sent me will have eternal life. They won't be judged because they have already passed from death to life.
(LITV-TSP) Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
(KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(KJV+) Verily,G281 verily,G281 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 (G3754) He that hearethG191 myG3450 word,G3056 andG2532 believethG4100 on him that sentG3992 me,G3165 hathG2192 everlastingG166 life,G2222 andG2532 shall notG3756 comeG2064 intoG1519 condemnation;G2920 butG235 is passedG3327 fromG1537 deathG2288 untoG1519 life.G2222
(NKJV) "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
(YLT) 'Verily, verily, I say to you—He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.
.
It is simple: A resurrection as I just described. And the resurrection to which the dead in Christ will attain to is the resurrection unto everlasting life. Because Christ Himself rose from the dead, we too have the hope that even though we die, we will not stay dead, but that we will one day be raised anew, never to see death again.
Hebrews 8:11
And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
Habakkuk 2:14
For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.
Jeremiah 31:34
And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
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