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Is So, Is Not, Is Too

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by inquiring mind, Aug 10, 2018.

  1. AirPo

    AirPo with a Touch of Grey

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    :wave: :rolleyes: : rolleyes :
     
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  2. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    I tried that once and the smiley itself did not show up...
     
  3. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    I second this.
     
  4. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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  5. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

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    As requested here is how I differ and how I match the proposed evolutionist stereotype.
    1. The weight of evidence from a vast multiplicity of sources assures me of an Earth that is billions of years old. No other plausible explanation comes close.
    2. The Bible is irrelevant to practically all science discussions, but it is certainly not irrelevant. As the vital scripture of a religion followed by a substantial part of the world's population it important in cultural, social, spiritual and political ways. Setting aside its religious significance it has importance as a work of myth, history, philosophy, poetry and the like.
    3. Science trumps everything if we are talking about practical, proven methodologies for investigating the nature of the universe. If we are talking from a wider perspective there are plenty of "fields" in which science has no contribution to make.
    4. I have zero faith in anything. I consider faith to be an affront to the essence of humanity. As a practical matter I accept certain concepts, "facts" and observations as being the most probable. I have noted and discovered, through practical work, that science is especially good at providing plausible explanations with sound, corroborating evidence.
    5. Since I have no idea how the universe began, or if it even did begin, I have no particular view on Creation. I don't rule out the possibility that some "entity" did the Creation, but don't see any pressing reason to think this likely. I do find the notion that the Creation was enacted by the Christian deity is whimsical and, unltimately, rather sad.
     
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  6. pitabread

    pitabread Well-Known Member

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    It's not a case of "science trumps everything".

    Rather, it's that science trumps religion when it comes to explaining how the natural world works.
     
  7. PsychoSarah

    PsychoSarah Chaotic Neutral

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    Just sounds like you are making excuses for the lack of solid evidence for the deity you believe in. Be honest: are you this lenient about believing in anything else? If you read a book describing purple people eaters, and other people around you acted as if the book depicted a real monster, would you go on believing this monster exists even if not so much of a picture of it was ever taken? Would you never question it?
     
  8. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't care what people believe. I don't see myself as the keeper of Truth who must force everyone to my version of it - I know my own truth and ill leave others to find it however they need.

    If anyone asks I will share what I know - what I have learned in my own journey - but I won't get into pointless argumentation with people whose only purpose is to force their truth upon my head.

    Been there, done that, got the t-shirt; I'm not doing it to another human being nor will I accept it done to me as if I am some child. I'm fully mature and capable of my own decisions - as im sure you are as well.

    So no, purple people eaters don't matter, if someone finds a thing they think is true it affects neither my being nor my truth, whether or not i can see what they do. Does the truth change because you understand it? Does it change because you don't?
     
  9. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

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    I cannot speak for other agnostics and atheists, though I suspect my point will mirror the views of many of them. I am not seeking in such discussions to force "my truth" on your head. I see nothing in PsychoSarah's post to suggest she is seeking do so. Rather, when I engage in such argumentation I am generally attempting two things:
    • To point out, where appropriate, that one or more of an individual's premises are faulty.
    • To encourage them to explore alternate views more deeply.
    That might lead them to change their wordlview, but it would hardly have been forced upon them. Quite the reverse: it would be their decision. In many instances they would have come away with a stronger conviction in their beliefs. Surely this is no bad thing?
     
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  10. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I was not making judgment calls, just stating my own position.

    If it's your desire to find any fault you can with someone else's beliefs so that you can point them to your own alternatives its certainly your business.

    But not everyone is going to engage - we all have different priorities. Mine is living my own beliefs.
     
  11. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

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    I apologise for having written unclearly. I will take a moment of your time to try to clarify.

    I did not think you were making a judgment call. I thought you were simply stating that some people discussed these matters in order to force a change of mind. This seems to be self evident. I was making the point that PsychoSarah did not appear to be doing this and that I certainly don't.

    I'm not out to find "any fault I can" in other beliefs, but if I find a fault in the premises I shall point it out. This is quite distinct from finding fault with the person's beliefs. Their beliefs are left intact. They are free to assess whether or not the error in their premise requires any adjustment to their beliefs. I don't challenge the belief.

    Any pointing towards my own beliefs is purely incidental. It's not the object of the exercise.

    No need to reply. I just wanted to clarify the ambiguity I evidently placed in my original post.
     
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  12. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

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    If the purpose of his stories had been to educate by illustrating a point, it would be far easier to craft a story than to hope to witness a real one.

    Or were all of Aesop's fables also real events?

    You realize that there have been billions of people on this planet, most of which are not you, correct?
     
  13. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

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    And I laugh, because Jesus explicitly said why he chose to speak in parables, and you, as always, illustrate why he was right.
     
  14. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    I know why Jesus told His parables, and you guys are proof that He was right.
     
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  15. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

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    You keep fumbling on the how; what makes you right about the why?
     
  16. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    First, since you contradicted yourself I'm guessing as to your meaning behind what you said.

    The very word "parable" implies a fictonal (not factual) analogy..

    The word parable comes from the Greek παραβολή (parabolē), meaning "comparison, illustration, analogy." It was the name given by Greek rhetorician to an illustration in the form of a brief fictional narrative.

    So there is no argument as to whether Jesus' parables were factual stories with real people as the very definition of parable involves fiction (as opposed to nonfiction).

    The point of Jesus telling these parables was to illustrate a moral, not a historical documentation of real world occurrences.

    The moral however, applies in very real, meaningful ways in the lives of believers.

    Hopefully this post helps..
     
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  17. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    Who cares what the Greeks thought they were.

    The Greeks thought sin was a sports term.

    We say of parables that they are real stories, told with a Heavenly message.
    Was this fiction?

    Numbers 23:7 And he took up his parable, and said, Balak the king of Moab hath brought me from Aram, out of the mountains of the east, saying, Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel.
     
  18. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I gave the etymology of the word which the new testament writers used to describe Jesus' analogies of the language they used.

    They were well versed in the greek language. Im certain, being inspired by God, they didn't use words incorrectly when relating to us what Jesus said and did, or how he said and did them.
     
  19. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    Indeed you did.
    But the Greek words don't cross-reference Hebrew words like the English words do.

    So "mashal" and "parabole" are different spellings.

    Are you familiar with the Law of First Mention?
     
  20. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Not all definitions say fiction so there is
    no reason to impose that idea especially
    since many of the stories include details
    suggesting they are were actual events.

    And Jesus's claim to being The Truth
    would not be helped by being a good
    story inventor requiring imagination.
     
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