Is Showing Cleavage Immodest? What Does the Bible Say?

[jpcedotal]

Perception is 90% of the truth and is what is remembered as the whole truth.

 

[3rdHeaven]

I think it's a cultural thing, and common sense should prevail.

For example one should not go to Church in a bikini, but the beach is fine.

Same with cleavage really. This is the USA not Iran. Most people here can handle a little cleavage with out sinning or going crazy.

The example here of that young ladies avatar that displayed a little cleavage was acceptable. It was not over doing it.

But again, common sense should prevail. Obviously if the woman had huge breasts and a very tight skimpy shirt with a lot of cleavage showing and looked like they were about to pop out at you, that might not be so appropriate.

Same with skirts. Short is ok, but obviously too short and tight would not be appropriate for a modest Christian woman.

I just found the accusation that this users avatar was sexual explicit a bit over the top (no pun intended). I found it to be acceptable for most occasions and far from sexually explicit.

I hope she comes back and we did not scare her away!

 

[omanid]

What is the purpose of showing cleavage? That should be the question to ask.

Exactly...

 

[znr]

Well, it does seem quite clear that some forms of "showing nakedness" are sinful, but not merely because someone can "see some skin", but because of what's going on in the person's mind and heart at the time.

And yes, The Bible does warn about being immodest. (1st Timothy 2:9)

Yet, it also speaks of much liberty. (1st Corinthians 10:23)

Taken together, one can say, we should all honor the principle in whatever way we are persuaded is appropriate, (and this has to do somewhat with our current culture/company), without being overly critical or judgmental if others are not compelled to honor the principle in the exact same way.

Sometimes due to varied associations what is sinful in one person's mind, is not sinful in another's...this mainly applies to what one may call "lesser things", which tend to vary substantially within different places, customs, and times.

wm

This is a very reasonable and very sound position, biblically. The irony is that so many believers disagree with this position!

 

[3rdHeaven]

I think some of us on this thread better stay off beaches!

 

[znr]

I think some of us on this thread better stay off beaches!

I see a mod here and I feel his eye on this thread. Oh no, everyone hit the ground.

 

[wayfaring man]

I like the stumbling angle the best. Even if u feel it is ok, if one cause another Christian to stumble then do not do it...

No doubt there's a good amount of merit there...but there also needs to be some kind of limitations on how far the "but it causes me to stumble", complaint has the power to dictate how everyone else needs to dress or act.

For example if some have abnormal fetishes for "pretty eyes", long earlobes", "full cheek bones", etc. is it fitting that everyone cover their face completely ?

Apparently, in some cultures this is the case.

But interestingly, in those same cultures we find that many men are even more lecherous, than is common to more "skin liberal" societies. Why ?

At some point of prescribed "covering up", there tends to be an enhancing of the mystique of what lies beneath, and therefore, such excessive efforts at suppression to a great extent have the very opposite effect.

Years ago I spent some time with nudists, largely out of curiosity, and was somewhat surprised to observe an interesting kind of reversal that took place...from what I gathered, most nudist seek to disassociate nudity with lust and sex for several reasons...but to keep things brief...what I noticed as a man, was that to fit in with them, I had to avoid "looking and lusting" way more than when I was clothed...because any arousal on my part would be rather obvious to everyone...and if anyone acted lasciviously/lecherously, they'd give them "the boot",err i mean "the foot"...so ironically I found myself being more compelled to not lust around a bunch of naked people (male and female), than I did when around those who were "fully clothed".

Now when I see a person acting like they want to draw attention to them self in an enticing way, I look at whatever they're "laying out there", like it is a piece of cheese laid out in the midst of a mouse trap, and it usually makes me think, huh, looks like they just want to try and "use me" in some selfish sorta way...and so what they may have thought would attract me as a man, usually has more the opposite effect - in that regard to...

Read a comment a few pages back that made good sense, said something like, do what is generally considered acceptable [with Biblical principles in mind] and then you won't be standing out as being one whose "tempting others"...and if someone still lusts after your cheekbones or your eyebrows then that's so far from normality that the fault lies rather exclusively with them. (I expanded the thought some with a bit of added emphasis).

And now it's time to go back to meditating on "speaking the truth in love", as The Good Lord enables !

wm

 

[wayfaring man]

This is a very reasonable and very sound position, biblically. The irony is that so many believers disagree with this position!

Well, it's nice when some agree...but still we all can likely benefit from considering a few perspectives slightly different than the ones we currently hold. And maybe some of us will go on to view things from a broader base than before...which could be for the better, or the worse I suppose...but our trust should ultimately be in God, to confirm the truth in us, though He sometimes even speaks through flesh and blood. Yet, we still need His Spirit within to affirm which is which and what is what...it's a learning process, and it's often kinda fun...for me anyway !

Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. <-----> Psalm 119:165

wm

 

[3rdHeaven]

Amen on trusting God! That I can agree with

Can we also agree that plumbers should forced not to show us their butt cleavage when they come to our home to work!

 

[Asvin]

Amen on trusting God! That I can agree with

Can we also agree that plumbers should forced not to show us their butt cleavage when they come to our home to work!

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.... that's literally the funniest thing I've heard on this forums!

 

[wayfaring man]

Amen on trusting God! That I can agree with

Can we also agree that plumbers should forced not to show us their butt cleavage when they come to our home to work!

Thinking that's an old plumbers trick to try and get the homeowner to leave the room so he/she doesn't have you looking over their backside asking "stupid" (to them) questions, and distracting them from getting the work done.

wm

 

[Asvin]

Thinking that's an old plumbers trick to try and get the homeowner to leave the room so he/she doesn't have you looking over their backside asking "stupid" (to them) questions, and distracting them from getting the work done.

wm

Again, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL! You guys made my day!

 

[TheDag]

I like the stumbling angle the best. Even if u feel it is ok, if one cause another Christian to stumble then do not do it...

So we should go against the biblical teaching? We are supposed to be able to give people a reason for the hope we have. The bible indicates people should be able to see a difference in us. That however could cause someone to stumble by being jealous of your confidence and hope. So we better wither stay at home all the time or maybe it is not as clear cut as that and the lines blur a bit.

 

[TheDag]

How so?

In one post you said people were silly for talking about what other cultures find acceptable even though there are people from those cultures here on CF with some taking part in this discussion then in a later post you talk about dressing appropiately for their culture. The two contradict each other. just because someone moves from one country to another does not mean they should ignore their previous culture. Their previous culture forms part of their guide as to right & wrong. You can't just dismiss it.

 

[TheDag]

I am not talking about wearing a tight top that actually shows like one has big breasts.. I am talking about women who dress appropriately.. I am pretty sure you have seen women like that, haven't you?

I'm not talking about people wearing tight tops either. it would seem to me that you do not know much about variations in breast size. What the tv show So You Think You Can Dance. How many of those women have breasts. Most of them are very flat chested. If they wearn't flat chested then their breasts would fall out during routines. Same with some other activities. Some women have very large breasts. I know women who try and try to find clothes that aren't a tight fit and draw attention to their breasts. However in the end they have two choices. Either show some cleavage or have a tight fitting top. For some it just is not possible to do both. So with all due respect unless you are advocating surgery and are willing to put up the money to pay for the breast reduction surgery you should not try and make it appear black & white like you are.

Again, it all comes down to.. If Christ was a woman, how would she dress?

i reckon it would depend on the shape of the body. that is why one can not make a hard and fast rule.


And also just to comment on an earlier post now that I have calmed down a bit. Rape is not about sex but rather about power.

Please read the rules of this forum:

http://www.christianforums.com/rules/#faq_rule_0

Your avatar is sexually explicit and is against the rules of this forum!

This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black don't you think?

There is a reason why the government requires us not to be nude.. where do you draw the line?

again the pot calling the kettle black! This thread has nothing at all to do with what the government requires. Also if you read her posts you will realise she is in a differnt country where there are different standards and different levels of acceptability. Really think about it. Why is it that in the US a movie with heaps of violence and swearing is more acceptable than a movie with no violence and little or no swearing but shows one picture of a breast for a couple of seconds.

 

[TheDag]

I see both sexes point of view and I understand. But really when it comes to this situation I have to think as a christian. And as a christian we should ask "What would Jesus do?". He would say to avoid temptation yourself and to not tempt others. Temptation works both ways.

However one person might be more tempted by a person covered up or wearing a crew neck tee while another is more tempted by a v-neck tee. So what is the answer if both are capable of providing temptation. The only other option is no top but i think we agree that is not acceptable in most places in usa or australia.

On a side note I talked to my new pastor and he said two things abot "showing clevage".

1. If clevage is showing, by default people will notice. Most people do not look on purpose. Its built into us. He said its doesn't excuse a man from looking though, so the man is wrong on that part. But the woman he said is just as sinful for tempting a man. I asked him what if she wasn't meaning to? He said God says we are to dress modestly. So therefor a woman showing clevage is going against Gods rule.

If this is all your pastor said in response then he is guilty of misleading you and will be judged harshly (according to the bible). it is not that simple. There is only one guideline in the bible when it comes to dressing modestly. it clearly teaches that motivation is a big factor. It tells us not to dress to draw attention to ourselves. I knew a guy who was guilty of dressing without modesty. He wore longsleeve collared shirt and trousers plus business style shoes. He was dressed differently to everyone else in the group as they all followed the rules which stated what time of year to wear summer uniform and what time to wear winter uniform. he however believed the winter uniform was the proper thing to wear. So to support his argument he wore the winter uniform all year round.

Another example is at my wedding. there were several people dressed better than me. The dress code was beach wear for guests yet some came in suits and formal dresses. Once again they are guilty of not dressing modestly.

2. He said if someone has to ask the question "Is showing clevage a sin?", then they know they are wrong. The only reason to ask a question about something like that is if your feeling guilty inside about it.

He also pointed out if any woman tries defending her right to show clevage, then she is feeling guilty inside and is lashing out because she doesn't want to accept that the guilt she feels is from God.

So when I asked people if I talked about myself too much then it means I was sinning by talking about myself too much. Interesting. of course the three godly people I asked all said no i don't talk about myself too much. Two of them added that because I talk more than the average person it could seem like I do. So there goes that generalisation. As always generalisations are most unhelpful.

He is right. How many times as christians do we ask about something that we know is a sin and yet we should be realizing if you have to ask, then you already know the answer.

It is actually possible that a person may not actually know the answer and is genuinely seeking an answer. To pretend that God must always be laying a guilt trip on them is most unhelpful and not biblical either.

Well in that case you shouldn't be feeling guilt. If you really don't know then you may just feel confused more then anything else. The feeling of guilt when you already know the answer is very diffrent. Its the Holy Spirit telling you its wrong.

hang on earlier you said that your minister claimed if they were asking the question then they were feeling guilty. So are you now saying your minister was wrong and doesn't know what he is talking about? if that is the case perhaps you should edit your earlier post. This bit seems to contradict what you previously posted.

 

[wayfaring man]

Hey Dag,

I'm a big fan of liberty and free will too.

But it looks like your taking this a bit too personally and striving a wee much.

Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resists the proud, and gives grace to the humble. <-----> 1st Peter 5:5

May The Lord Be Pleased !

wm

 

[TheDag]

Hey Dag,

I'm a big fan of liberty and free will too.

But it looks like your taking this a bit too personally and striving a wee much.

Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resists the proud, and gives grace to the humble. <-----> 1st Peter 5:5

May The Lord Be Pleased !

wm

I respect your opinion. How so am i taking this personally do you think?

I just think certain people are ignoring certain facts. They are making assumptions about others posts. Some are contradicting themselves I believe. The comments about pot calling the kettle black are a bit vague however I can't explain that without breaking the rules. I could do it via private message tho

 

[wayfaring man]

It seemed you were trying too hard to convince others that they're wrong, by countering one statement after another bing, bang, bong.

Thinking it's somewhat more fitting to employ the "whoever has ears, let them hear", approach in this forum anyway...

But I really do enjoy reading a lot of what you have to say...so this isn't meant to be an attack against you...if you'll review the last page or two, it was as though we had found a "sweet spirit" of sharing (finally), after what appeared to be quite of bit of back and forth, tit for tat attempts at semi-aggressively disputing each others viewpoints, beliefs, or convictions.

Hope this explains without offending.

wm

 

[CounselorForChrist]

this is all your pastor said in response then he is guilty of misleading you and will be judged harshly (according to the bible).

Well he added more, I was just summing it up. People don't seem to think you can't judge at all. But its not true. In the bible it says if your brother (or sister) in the lord is sinning you should call them on the carpet. More so your suppose to bring them to your pastor and tell him the problem. I apply that to online situations. If I see a christian not doing something right, I give them advice. Doesn't mean I am always right. And I don't judge them. You have to hate the sin, not the sinner.

It is actually possible that a person may not actually know the answer and is genuinely seeking an answer. To pretend that God must always be laying a guilt trip on them is most unhelpful and not biblical either.

Well yeah, someone may not know the answer. In those cases you don't usually feel guilt. Just more of confusion because your not sure what the answer is. God doesn't always lay guilt on you. But it does say when you know your sinning, you wll feel guilt sometimes. More so if you prayed to God for forgivness, then kept going doing the same sin.

We are not perfect, we sin. But its how we react to our sins. Do we keep doing it? Or do we try to stop? Like with inappropriate content. For alot of men they know its a sin, but its hard for them to stop. When they do stop it feels great because you have one less thing to worry about. It doens't mean they won't look again, but your sin should be easier to avoid if you work at it.

hang on earlier you said that your minister claimed if they were asking the question then they were feeling guilty. So are you now saying your minister was wrong and doesn't know what he is talking about? if that is the case perhaps you should edit your earlier post. This bit seems to contradict what you previously posted.

I meant if you really don't know the answer, then you won't feel guilt. You can't feel guilt over something you didn't know was wrong. Although I am sure there are people that feel guilt simply because they don't know the answer and feel they are letting God down. I apologize if my posts are somewhat confusing. I am terrible at wording things well. I can make 10 paragraphs trying to explain something and the someone will post what I said perfectly in one sentence lol.

It seemed you were trying too hard to convince others that they're wrong, by countering one statement after another bing, bang, bong.

The good thing about forums like this are we can talk about these things. The bad thing is sometimes we get carried away pointing out someone else is sinning and forget the fact we are all sinners. Once I had a friend get mad at me because I made a "sneaky" move in a game against him. He said that I was being unethical and sinning. I told him let he who is without sin cast the first stone. None of us are perfect and yet we will quickly attack others of sinning.

Its why I don't try to ever go to deep when pointing out someones sinning because I know I am just as bad as everyone else can be at times.