Is Scripture MISSING Dogmas?

[Rick Otto]

I have pondered it and decided that i believe it doesnt matter, its not worth debating because i dont have any writings from that man that i must consider. I believe the apostles accepted him and thats good enough. If the question seems to become important in the future then perhaps i'll consider it again. More important to me and everyone else is the Pope's authority as Peters successor.

Interesting that we don't have apostles with all that succession.

 

[concretecamper]

It is interesting how you forego explicit instruction to follow example on apostolic succession, but Paul's example of using only scripture to verify NT revelations with Bereans... I guess I'm confused how you choose between the two.

you don't have to choose...I just learned that if one doesn't think scripture matters.....it doesn't. Why go through this debate......everyone can be their own authority (Pope)

It's like open bar....popes all around!!!!

 

[Rick Otto]

you don't have to choose...I just learned that if one doesn't think scripture matters.....it doesn't. Why go through this debate......everyone can be their own authority (Pope)

It's like open bar....popes all around!!!!

I apologize. I had no intention of debate.

I am glad that you realize everyone has authority over themselves.
Most people refuse to accept it and make a private interpretation about whom to scrape it off on.

 

[BobRyan]

I just dont see a need to understand if God chose the man or not. The apostles accepted him and thats good enough for me. THe man was a brother and teacher, i'll accept that. What about the Pope though? Is he an apostle? That's my question. Why does the Pope need bullet proof glass and body guards? The Apostles needed none of those things. Why doesn't he seem to have the signs of an apostle? Aren't there signs that follow true apostles?

Jesus told peter to put down his sword. Why then does the pope need armed body guards?

There have been many examples of multiple-popes at the same time - often having rival papal armies at war with each other. Finally Emperor Sigismund in the 15th century defrocked all Papal lines and started his own papal line with his own group of Cardinals - since that time - I think there has only been one pope at a time.

Certainly some popes have been good Christians - no doubt at all.

But the top ten wicked popes are sometimes said to be ...

http://listverse.com/2007/08/17/top-10-most-wicked-popes/



in Christ,

Bob

 

[Souldier]

I apologize. I had no intention of debate.

I am glad that you realize everyone has authority over themselves.
Most people refuse to accept it and make a private interpretation about whom to scrape it off on.

Yes we must take authority over our own actions. We have only ourselves to blame. Thanks for highlighting that truth.

 

[Souldier]

There have been many examples of multiple-popes at the same time - often having rival papal armies at war with each other. Finally Emperor Sigismund in the 15th century defrocked all Papal lines and started his own papal line with his own group of Cardinals - since that time - I think there has only been one pope at a time.

in Christ,

Bob

I sounds like just following the words of Christ and Paul, Peter, James and John is much simpler and will not lead us into those things in the first place..

 

[fhansen]

I sounds like just following the words of Christ and Paul, Peter, James and John is much simpler and will not lead us into those things in the first place..

So you must agree with the SDA position that the seventh day is the proper day for rest and worship-in order to remain consistent with Scripture and in obedience of God?

 

[Souldier]

So you must agree with the SDA position that the seventh day is the proper day for rest and worship-in order to remain consistent with Scripture and in obedience of God?

I agree that i just don't understand about the day of rest. I just keep it simple and follow Paul's teaching in Romans 14 about esteeming every day alike. It seems acceptable to just esteem every day alike, according to Paul. I have faith that God can forgive my ignorance if i misunderstand. His mercy endures forever. However i think about the "eighth day" thing. I wonder about the spiritual teaching concerning the day of rest. I was just thinking about it today as a matter of fact. I wonder if observing days is unnecessary and if the old law of Sabbath is something we find already fulfilled in Christ. I don't know but Paul seems to suggest that esteeming everyday alike is OK, so i just go that way, its simpler.

 

[FredVB]

It wouldn't be another day from what is said in scripture, it is good for observing to rest from secular work and to worship God. But this shouldn't be demanded of gentiles.

 

[BobRyan]

So you must agree with the SDA position that the seventh day is the proper day for rest and worship-in order to remain consistent with Scripture and in obedience of God?

So then - do you think that there are times when it is "not safe" to follow the Bible?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I agree that i just don't understand about the day of rest. I just keep it simple and follow Paul's teaching in Romans 14 about esteeming every day alike. It seems acceptable to just esteem every day alike, according to Paul. I have faith that God can forgive my ignorance if i misunderstand. His mercy endures forever. However i think about the "eighth day" thing. I wonder about the spiritual teaching concerning the day of rest. I was just thinking about it today as a matter of fact. I wonder if observing days is unnecessary and if the old law of Sabbath is something we find already fulfilled in Christ. I don't know but Paul seems to suggest that esteeming everyday alike is OK, so i just go that way, its simpler.

In Lev 23 there is a long list of annual holidays.

In Romans 14 Paul says "one man esteems (observes) one day about the others, another man esteems (observes) them all" -- the word "alike" is added by some translators and they usually let you know they are doing that with italics.

Paul is talking about the annual holidays.

In Gal 4 Paul condemns any Christians that observe holidays not in the Bible that are of pagan origin.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The idea that mans dogma was more important than the doctrine that you find in the actual Bible - was addressed by Christ here -


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

[FONT=&quot]The elders are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this.

Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)[/FONT]

 

[Souldier]

In Lev 23 there is a long list of annual holidays.

In Romans 14 Paul says "one man esteems (observes) one day about the others, another man esteems (observes) them all" -- the word "alike" is added by some translators and they usually let you know they are doing that with italics.

Paul is talking about the annual holidays.

In Gal 4 Paul condemns any Christians that observe holidays not in the Bible that are of pagan origin.

in Christ,

Bob

I just don't feel lead in that direction after reading the NT scriptures. I also dont know that the word "alike" was added, i have never heard that before and would need to consider it further. I think paul was talking about all holy days. The context which starts in chapter 13 is talking about the reason we follow commandments, paul is saying it is for love that we dont kill, steal, commit adultery, ect... and he says that is how we can understand all commandments. He then goes on to say that one man observes a day unto the lord and another does not. To me Romans 13- 14 is talking about the 10 commandments and so chapter 14 is referring to Sabbath. I don't believe in this sunday thing either, i think its has no biblical support. IT makes alot of sense to me that holy days are not important, especially seeing how there is so much debate surrounding those things.

 

[BobRyan]

Lev 19:18 - "Love your neighbor as yourself"

Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart and soul".

1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God".

Rev 14:12 the saints "keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 affirms this about the TEN Commandments.

Westminster Confession of Faith - section 19 affirms this about the TEN Commandments.

Even the RCCs own catechism admits to the continued authority of the TEN Commandments for the saints.

Is 66:23 regarding the NEW heavens and NEW Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to bow down".

See 1 John 5:1-4

There is a lot of information on that subject in the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Souldier]

Bob- Considering the possibility that the word alike was added, i do see it in italic so perhaps you may be right. After reading it again i think that perhaps it still means the same thing with or without the word "alike". To me its still saying the same thing. It refers to not observing the day at all, and so this is not talking about observing one day as more important than another but not observing it at all.

 

[Souldier]

Christ never observed Sabbath the way it was traditionally observed either. Not after he started His ministry anyway. I see what Christ said about the Sabbath, i see pauls teaching about the law and i see his teaching from Romans 14 and Collossians and im under the impression that we are shown a better way.

 

[Root of Jesse]

A man is not necessarily an apostle just because someone says that he is. Are there not signs of an apostle that prove him to be an apostle? Also why does he need the things i mentioned before, if the apostles didnt need them?

It's not someone who says he is. It's someOne. The laying on of hands is the sign of an apostle, or his successor. Jesus laid hands on the apostles, the apostles layed hands on Paul and Mattias and those who came after them, etc.

An acorn doesn't have roots, and yet it is the same substance as an oak tree. Why does an oak tree need roots, leaves, bark, etc? FWIW, Peter carried a sword, did he not? He tried to protect Jesus, did he not? Did Jesus need protecting?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Lets consider the signs of an apostle that Paul talked about. Lets consider how the apostles lived as well. Did they need armed body guards and armor? Does the Pope use those things? We dont actually know that these men were chosen in succession over the years going back to Peter. Its just what we are told to believe.

But they do know.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Thanks for explaining.

You would accept someone outside the Church to explain infallibility to you?

 

[BobRyan]

Bob- Considering the possibility that the word alike was added, i do see it in italic so perhaps you may be right. After reading it again i think that perhaps it still means the same thing with or without the word "alike". To me its still saying the same thing. It refers to not observing the day at all, and so this is not talking about observing one day as more important than another but not observing it at all.

Here is an example from NKJV without the word in italics -

NKJV
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord


So then to Esteem is to "observe" as we see in vs 5 and 6. The day "esteemed" in vs 5 is the day "observed" in vs 6.

One man observes one day above another (so then observing one day and not observing others) - while another man observes every day.