Is Scripture MISSING Dogmas?

[fhansen]

From what i understand there is nothing in the creed which is not also found in scripture. The OP mentioned super important things that are not found in scripture. Im just sticking with the topic.

The Church had to sit at concill to declare-dogmatically-on the Trinity, mainly due to disagreement on the deity of Jesus.

 

[Souldier]

It's relative imo.

John 6 speaks of the one having the words of eternal life, not the one having flesh unto eternal life. He even tells us that the flesh profits nothing.

Then they're going to tell us that it is spiritual, when their entire argument hangs on the literal eating of flesh and drinking blood.

I believe its symbolic of the spirit. The bread from heaven is symbolic of the spirit which Jesus promises in John 14. They seem to link the bread which represents the body of Christ with the bread from heaven found in John 6 and it may be the same but i dont believe that its actual flesh, but it represents the spirit. Jesus is represented by the word, bread of life, water of life, the lamb sacrifice. Its all a bit mysterious but i believe its all symbolic. Jesus is not actually a lamb, the lamb is a symbol for him not vice versa.

 

[Souldier]

The Church had to sit at concill to declare-dogmatically-on the Trinity, mainly due to disagreement on the deity of Jesus.

All that is required in scripture is that we acknowledge Him as Gods son and savior of the world, the Lord. I dont need to understand the trinity to understand Jesus as Lord. No one understands the Trinity, we all struggle to comprehend it fully, but faith needs no answer for it.

 

[fhansen]

All that is required in scripture is that we acknowledge Him as Gods son and savior of the world, the Lord. I dont need to understand the trinity to understand Jesus as Lord. No one understands the Trinity, we all struggle to comprehend it fully, but faith needs no answer for it.

Alright, the main problem that many were having at the time was in recognizing Jesus as God. That may or may not be important to you or your personal theology but its very relevant to the Church's basic, grounded understanding of why Jesus is able to save at all- just Who He is. We may bite the hand that feeds us but, in the end, your and my understanding of the faith today has much to do with the work and faith of believers who came before us over the course of the past many centuries.

 

[GoingByzantine]

I don't think that it's rude or an attack, I like having stimulating conversations even if they're a bit heated at times. It's a good way to sharpen our hearts and mind etc.

While I do understand that the bread represents the body of Christ which is His church, I just don't get how men actually think that they're passing God through their digestive system and then out of the body?

If we are the body of Christ, then obviously that would mean that you're all eating one another.

The way I look at it is that the body of Christ simply cannot be figurative, it has to be literal. Jesus said firmly, "this is my body," and "this is my blood," in Matthew 26. If it had been merely a symbol of unity, I feel that the lord would have said so. Instead Jesus made it clear that the bread and wine literally were his body.

When we partake of his sacrament, as did his disciples, we are then in full communion with one another. The act of breaking bread is symbolic of friendship and brotherly love, and of course it is encouraged in 1 Cor 10:16.

I am reminded that the ECF Irenaeus wrote about this matter using scripture to back up his message:

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.2 (St. Irenaeus)

Thank you for understanding that I don't want to attack or offend anyone.

 

[topcare]

I believe its symbolic of the spirit. The bread from heaven is symbolic of the spirit which Jesus promises in John 14. They seem to link the bread which represents the body of Christ with the bread from heaven found in John 6 and it may be the same but i dont believe that its actual flesh, but it represents the spirit. Jesus is represented by the word, bread of life, water of life, the lamb sacrifice. Its all a bit mysterious but i believe its all symbolic. Jesus is not actually a lamb, the lamb is a symbol for him not vice versa.

Did not Christ say Himself that the Bread is His Body and the Wine His Blood? Did He ever say it was a symbol? Did His Apostles and the Early Church say that they were symbolic? Here is Christ word from His mouth:

Then Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily I say unto you, unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the Last Day. For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He that eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood dwelleth in Me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father, so he that eateth Me, even he shall live by Me. This is that Bread which came down from Heaven, not as your fathers ate manna and are dead; he that eateth of this Bread shall live for ever.”

John 6:53-58

And as they were eating, Jesus took bread and blessed it and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” And He took the cup and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink ye all of it; for this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mt 26:26-28


You will not see anywhere that Christ said the elements were mere symbol, indeed many left because they could not believe that the elements were only symbolic

From that time many of His disciples went back and walked no more with Him.

John 6:66


You will never find the elements being a mere symbol in the Early Church, and even death when people partook of the elements unworthily. Now if it were naught but a symbol it would make no sense that they would get sick and die.


You will not find the elements as a mere symbol in Christian history:

Ignatius of Antioch​

Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr​

We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these, but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).​

Irenaeus​

He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood) from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported) how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life — flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord and is in fact a member of him? (Against Heresies 5:2 [A.D. 189]).​

Clement of Alexandria​

"Eat my flesh)" [Jesus] says, "and drink my blood." The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).​

​

Do you know when the Eucharist was consider just a mere symbol? At the Reformation by one man, not in the Scriptures or Church history until that point. The Bread is Christ Body and the Wine is Christ Blood. Amen!

 

[Souldier]

Alright, the main problem that many were having at the time was in recognizing Jesus as God. That may or may not be important to you or your personal theology but its very relevant to the Church's basic, grounded understanding of why Jesus is able to save at all- just Who He is. We may bite the hand that feeds us but, in the end, your and my understanding of the faith today has much to do with the work and faith of believers who came before us over the course of the past many centuries.

The trinity statement found in the creed is still based on scripture knowledge. So its besides the point anyway. Its not a dogma which is not found in the bible. There are many scriptures that can be used to support what the creed says.

 

[GoingByzantine]

The trinity statement found in the creed is still based on scripture knowledge. So its besides the point anyway. Its not a dogma which is not found in the bible. There are many scriptures that can be used to support what the creed says.

May I ask what your definition of dogma is, please?

 

[Souldier]

The way I look at it is that the body of Christ simply cannot be figurative, it has to be literal. Jesus said firmly, "this is my body," and "this is my blood," in Matthew 26. If it had been merely a symbol of unity, I feel that the lord would have said so. Instead Jesus made it clear that the bread and wine literally were his body.

When we partake of his sacrament, as did his disciples, we are then in full communion with one another. The act of breaking bread is symbolic of friendship and brotherly love, and of course it is encouraged in 1 Cor 10:16.

I am reminded that the ECF Irenaeus wrote about this matter using scripture to back up his message:

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.2 (St. Irenaeus)

Thank you for understanding that I don't want to attack or offend anyone.

He also said i am the bread of life and the light of the world. Is he really a loaf of bread? Or is he really sunlight? THe bible declares him as the lamb. Is he really a lamb? Why is it so hard to believe that bread and wine are just symbols that represent his flesh and blood?

 

[fhansen]

The trinity statement found in the creed is still based on scripture knowledge. So its besides the point anyway. Its not a dogma which is not found in the bible. There are many scriptures that can be used to support what the creed says.

True, and there are many that can be used to deny what the creed says.

 

[Souldier]

Did not Christ say Himself that the Bread is His Body and the Wine His Blood? Did He ever say it was a symbol? Did His Apostles and the Early Church say that they were symbolic? Here is Christ word from His mouth:

I'll let me other post be my answer.

 

[Souldier]

May I ask what your definition of dogma is, please?

Im referring to dogmas not found in the bible. This seems to be what the OP is talking about.

 

[Souldier]

True, and there are many that can be used to deny what the creed says.

Which ones?

 

[topcare]

I'll let me other post be my answer.

Your answer goes even against Christ Himself. Just because one do not understand does not mean that Christ lied and only meant symbol, that is what those who say the Eucharist is symbolic are saying they are saying Christ, who is God, lied in Scripture. So do you really believe Christ could lie when He said "This bread is my body...this wine is my Blood".

 

[GoingByzantine]

He also said i am the bread of life and the light of the world. Is he really a loaf of bread? Or is he really sunlight? THe bible declares him as the lamb. Is he really a lamb? Why is it so hard to believe that bread and wine are just symbols that represent his flesh and blood?

Had the bread and wine been merely symbols, then he would have been proposing idolatry. This is also why Paul took such a hard stance against people receiving the sacrament when they were not properly disposed in 1st Corinthians.

Had the bread and wine been simple symbols, why would Paul tell people that they are eating and drinking their own condemnation?

 

[Souldier]

Your answer goes even against Christ Himself. Just because one do not understand does not mean that Christ lied and only meant symbol, that is what those who say the Eucharist is symbolic are saying they are saying Christ, who is God, lied in Scripture. So do you really believe Christ could lie when He said "This bread is my body...this wine is my Blood".

I can see that you hold strong beliefs about this. I think i should respect that. Lets just agree to disagree and let it go at that.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

The way I look at it is that the body of Christ simply cannot be figurative, it has to be literal.

There's not a doubt in my mind that the body of Christ is literal and that it is His body, which is the church of God.

Many members, one body.

Paul tells us that we are one bread, more proof that if you take it literally that you'd actually be eating one another.

For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

 

[topcare]

I can see that you hold strong beliefs about this. I think i should respect that. Lets just agree to disagree and let it go at that.

I wish I could but it is very sad when those who profess belief in the Savior believes He could lie to us, it hurts to my very soul. Oh that all would believe Christ words but some what to believe themselves more knowledgeable

 

[Souldier]

Had the bread and wine been merely symbols, then he would have been proposing idolatry. This is also why Paul took such a hard stance against people receiving the sacrament when they were not properly disposed in 1st Corinthians.

Had the bread and wine been simple symbols, why would Paul tell people that they are eating and drinking their own condemnation?

I think Paul was wanting people to take the grace of God seriously. He didnt want people to use the wine to get drunk like some were doing. Maybe it was a sign of disrespect. THat scripture doesn't prove that the wine actually becomes blood though.

 

[Souldier]

I wish I could but it is very sad when those who profess belief in the Savior believes He could lie to us, it hurts to my very soul. Oh that all would believe Christ words but some what to believe themselves more knowledgeable

I just believe that Christ spoke symbolically as he has done many times. Jesus will baptize us in fire as well, but we dont actually get set on fire.