Is Scripture MISSING Dogmas?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by GratiaCorpusChristi

You're talking about the Athanasian Creed. And while it looks like it goes into detail, it is actually just using a whole series of divine attributes as multiple examples of a singular reality: one essence, three persons.
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Quote: AnticipateHisComing

Look at the difference between the Nicene and the Athanasian Creeds. One has known history, developed by committee. It shows a refined agreed on position. The other is of unknown origin, and obviously not a result of any position agreed on by any authorized committee. The creed goes beyond stating ones belief. With the damnation clause, it claims a new divine revelation. This creed written by a man has now added new conditions for salvation. Let me assure you that there are people in heaven that have not believed all in that creed.

The Athanasian Creed is professed by many churches. It contains a damnation clause meaning that you must profess what it says to obtain salvation. What it states is not directly taken from scripture.

This should satisfy as an example of dogma.

Were you or others aware that CF uses the Nicene-Constantinopol Creed?
[that was back in 2009 so I don't know what one they used before or if they are still using the Nicene Creed........

http://www.christianforums.com/t7368885-21/#post51746235

Christian Forums has changed our Statement of Faith to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.

The Nicene Creed has a long history of being the normative Statement of Faith for CF and after much deliberation we feel it is in the best interest of the site to return to the oldest, and most widely used, profession of faith in Christianity.
I'm sure that there will be many questions which I'll try to address in a separate post (and I'm sure that there are a bunch that have not even crossed my mind so feel free to ask).

Christian Forums will be using the version of the Creed developed at the second Ecumenical Council held in 381AD in the city of Constantinople.

This is in effect immediately (as it is already published in the site's FAQ).

Nicene Creed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Nicene Creed (Greek: Σύμβολον τῆς Νίκαιας, Latin: Symbolum Nicaenum) is a profession of faith widely used in Christian liturgy.
It is called Nicene /ˈnaɪsiːn/ because originally adopted in the city of Nicaea (present day Iznik, Turkey) by the First Council of Nicaea in 325.[1] In 381, it was amended at the First Council of Constantinople, and the amended form is referred to as the Nicene or the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed.

The churches of Oriental Orthodoxy use this profession of faith with the verbs in the original plural ("we believe") form. The Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church use it with the verbs of believing changed to the singular ("I believe") form. The Anglican Communion and many Protestant denominations also use it, sometimes with the verbs of believing in the plural form but generally in the singular.............

Athanasian Creed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Athanasian Creed, or Quicunque Vult (also Quicumque Vult), is a Christian statement of belief focused on Trinitarian doctrine and Christology.

The Latin name of the creed, Quicunque vult, is taken from the opening words, "Whosoever wishes". The creed has been used by Christian churches since the sixth century. It is the first creed in which the equality of the three persons of the Trinity is explicitly stated. It differs from the Nicene-Constantinopolitan and Apostles' Creeds in the inclusion of anathemas, or condemnations of those who disagree with the creed (like the original Nicene Creed).

Widely accepted among Western Christians, including the Roman Catholic Church and some Anglican churches, Lutheran churches (it is considered part of the Lutheran confessions in the Book of Concord), and ancient, liturgical churches generally, the Athanasian Creed has been used in public worship less and less frequently, but part of it can be found as an "Authorized Affirmation of Faith" in the recent (2000) Common Worship liturgy of the Church of England [Main Volume page 145].[1][2] The creed has never gained much acceptance in liturgy among Eastern Christians.




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[ThatTrueLight]

Do we recognize our own trance - state when it is shown to us?
Pavlov and Mesmer showed us how easily our brains get trained.

I like this and I wish that it wasn't such a bad thought for Christians (even) to be deceived, as if we can't be deceived or something.

I think that everyone has been deceived by the rulers of this dark world in some way or another and it continues til this day.

There are still many bad seeds being planted today and most act as if there is no such thing?

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Athanasian Creed is professed by many churches. It contains a damnation clause meaning that you must profess what it says to obtain salvation. What it states is not directly taken from scripture.

This should satisfy as an example of dogma.

Anathemas are not dogmas.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

The Lord Jesus Christ tells us in these words:

... "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'" (Matthew 4:4)​

The word of God is what God has revealed. We have revelation in creation, written revelation in holy scripture, spiritual revelation in the Spirit's voice in the faithful, spoken revelation in the faithful transmission of the spoken words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and revelation in deeds transmitted in the liturgy and prayers of the church.

Could you elaborate more on this please, can you be specific or use specific examples?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Could you elaborate more on this please, can you be specific or use specific examples?

I could, but why?

 

[ThatTrueLight]

I could, but why?

Consider it a request for proper product labeling.

What ya selling specifically?

Otherwise just about anything could be placed into your broad categories.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Anathemas are not dogmas.

Anathema is an interesting greek word......

Luke 21:5
And certain-ones saying about the Temple, that to stones, goodly and to devoted-things/ana-qhmasin <334> it has been adorned. He said,.........

Acts 23:14
Who-any coming toward to the Chief-priests and to the Elders say "to-anathema/ana-qemati <331> we anathemtize ourselves of no yet nothing to taste till we may be killing Paul.

Reve 22:3
and every anathema/kat-ana-qema <2652> not shall be still.
And the throne of Yahweh and of the Lamb in Her shall be,
and His bond-servants shall be offering divine-service to Him.

http://www.christianforums.com/t5340106/
Anathema to Sabbath-keepers - Council of Laodicea

History of God's Holy Bible and the so-called Jews
*snip*

....The Hebrew word translated "utterly destroy" is 'cherem.'
Both the people and the land of Canaan were 'cherem,' meaning FORCIBLY dedicated to God as withdrawn from His service and worship wherein He was not glorified, and by the hands of another, devoted to Him for destruction whereby He will be glorified. The equivalent Greek word is "anathema.".......

2764 cherem khay'-rem or (Zecheriah 14:11) cherem {kheh'-rem}; from 2763; physical (as shutting in) a net (either literally or figuratively); usually a doomed object; abstr. extermination:--(ac-)curse(-d, -d thing), dedicated thing, things which should have been utterly destroyed, (appointed to) utter destruction, devoted (thing), net.


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[fhansen]

Written exactly in the manner of one who has no response but wants the last word anyway.

Well, at least you got a kick out of that. I'll still be charitable enough to repeat: study. When you understand Catholicism better, you'll at least be operating from the perspective of knowledge.

 

[Albion]

Well, at least you got a kick out of that. I'll still be charitable enough to repeat: study. When you understand Catholicism better, you'll at least be operating from the perspective of knowledge.

You know, I am so embarrassed for you when I read talk like that, that I think I'll just say nothing further. Let's pretend you got the last word after all.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Yes, and so sorry in advance to anyone for just not taking your word for it.

It holds far less authority than taking His word for it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Albion

Written exactly in the manner of one who has no response but wants the last word anyway.
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Well, at least you got a kick out of that. I'll still be charitable enough to repeat: study.
When you understand Catholicism better, you'll at least be operating from the perspective of knowledge.

When you have as much experience with Catholicism as I do, you can talk that way.
Until then, you're just embarrassing yourself in my eyes.

I was a RC for the 1st 17 yrs of my life and even went to a RC Seminary and still didn't comprehend Catholism. Like in tennis, where they play for years just to learn how to keep score [heard that in the movie "Fooling Around" ehehe]

Catholicism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Catholicism (from Greek &#954;&#945;&#952;&#959;&#955;&#953;&#954;&#953;&#963;&#956;&#972;&#962;, katholikismos, "universal") and its adjectival form Catholic are used as broad terms for describing specific traditions in the Christian churches in theology, doctrine, liturgy, ethics, and spirituality.
"Catholicism" and "Catholic" in this sense refer to the practices of several Christian churches. This sense is to be distinguished from the use of these words to refer to the Catholic Church, that which is in full communion with the Holy See.[1]

Within Western Christianity, the churches of the Anglican Communion, Continuing Anglicanism, the Old Catholics, the Liberal Catholic Church, the Augustana Catholic Church, the Apostolic Catholic Church (ACC), the Aglipayans (Philippine Independent Church), the African Orthodox Church, the Polish National Catholic Church of America, and many Independent Catholic churches, which emerged directly or indirectly from and have beliefs and practices largely similar to Latin Rite Catholicism, regard themselves as "Catholic" without full communion with the Bishop of Rome, whose claimed status and authority they generally reject.................

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=53271205
Slick move by the Pope to attract Anglicans


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[MoreCoffee]

Consider it a request for proper product labeling.

What ya selling specifically?

Otherwise just about anything could be placed into your broad categories.

I think I will not waste more time than is useful or necessary. Go back and look at what I said before if you want to. There are plenty of good web sites with the early church fathers' writings; search for "eve and mary" and "early church fathers". You'll get some good results. stick with reliable web sites. Usually ending in ".edu" and if they come from one of the major universities you should be fine. All up to you, if you're interested ...

 

[ThatTrueLight]

I think I will not waste more time than is useful or necessary. Go back and look at what I said before if you want to. There are plenty of good web sites with the early church fathers' writings; search for "eve and mary" and "early church fathers". You'll get some good results. stick with reliable web sites. Usually ending in ".edu" and if they come from one of the major universities you should be fine. All up to you, if you're interested ...

I'm not the one selling it so there's no need. I already know the Sword of the Spirit and its life giving results.

Words of men are not going to compare, not even worthy to be compared.

If somebody is telling me that there are more words of God than the holy scriptures, then that seems pretty important. Yet when asked for verification, check it out yourself.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think I will not waste more time than is useful or necessary. Go back and look at what I said before if you want to. There are plenty of good web sites with the early church fathers' writings; search for "eve and mary" and "early church fathers".
You'll get some good results. stick with reliable web sites. Usually ending in ".edu" and if they come from one of the major universities you should be fine. All up to you, if you're interested ...

Google is my friend

https://www.google.com/search?q=eve...+christianforums+site:www.christianforums.com

http://www.christianforums.com/t76937/
Mary as the New Eve & Church Fathers

I have heard that this idea was first written about by one of the Early Fathers, either Irenaeus or Ignatius. Does anyone have the quote, and the citation of which letter/book it is in, and where? I need it for a debate I'm in with an anti-Catholic. Thanks

http://www.christianforums.com/t7262061-5/
Mary as the "New Eve"

Originally Posted by sola_scriptura

It is my contention that Mary did require a Savior, as inferred by Luke 1:46-47. One conclusion we can draw from this revelation is that Mary was not born perfect, or without sin, as the Catholic Church (hereafter “the church”) seems to assert. This would seem to render the typology made by the church of Mary the New Eve problematic. One of parallels often used is the virginity of Mary at the incarnation and the alleged virginity of Eve at the time of and before the fall; and the idea that while Eve was disobedient Mary was perfectly obedient (implying she was sinless). In the Luke passage aforementioned Mary, and I quote, “rejoices in God my Savior.” This would seem to abrogate the idea of perfection on the part of Mary. However, the typology is also problematic on another count. The assumed virginity of Eve, before the fall, seems fallacious. At Genesis 1:28 God said to Adam and Eve “be fruitful and multiply.” This command was given to our first parents before the fall (and of course before the birth of Cain and Abel). We can at least take from this that Eve had the ability to bear children before the fall (albeit God increased her pains in child rearing as punishment for her disobedience, but she was obviously still able to have children before that point). Moreover, since God commanded the couple to be fruitful, the better view seems to weigh against assuming Eve was a virgin until after the fall.

In addition, I believe there is a marked disengagement between Mary and Christ, which can also be viewed as disengagement between the spiritual and temporal. The first instance of this is at the wedding in Cana (see John 2). However, the most marked incident of disengagement occurs at the end of Matthew 12 (the discourse between Christ and the person in the crowd who identifies His family members as being present).

I find further support for my reasoning in the depiction of the “New Jerusalem” as the “bride of the Lamb” (Revelation 21:2,9).

First, it is necessary to understand that Paul’s depiction of Jesus as the “New Adam” is a reference to the resurrected Jesus (see 1 Corinthians 15:45). The New Jerusalem is also a post-resurrection concept (of the coming kingdom). So the only way a typology between Mary as a New Eve is supportable is if we extend the role of Mary beyond a temporal context into the spiritual. Is it appropriate to view Mary as a “type” for the “bride of the Lamb”? In my opinion; no.

These depictions seem to rest on the assumption that “the woman” referred to in Revelation 12:1 is Mary. My contention is that even if that is true it does not abrogate the disengagement I believe occurred. In fact if we assume “the woman” is Mary it would bolster my view.

Notice, in Revelation 12:1 it states the woman was “clothed with the sun.” In Revelation 21:23 we learn that “the city has no need of the sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illuminated it.” The temporal that requires the light of the sun, the spiritual (the New Jerusalem and kingdom formed by the union of heaven and earth) does not.

Whether we view “the woman” as Mary or as Israel (I have always thought the latter to be true) it would seem that the woman must be viewed in a temporal (and pre-resurrection) context.

The argument that 1 Timothy 2:5 debunks the idea that Mary can be a co-redeemer is not new; so I won’t spend time discussing the point (except to say I agree with it). However, to close I want to turn to the idea of Mary as mother of disciples (the discourse between Jesus, Mary, and the disciple that He loved at John 19 is the typical passage used to support this idea). Interestingly Paul, at Galatians 4:26 states: “the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.”

Paul draws a typology between Sarah and the Jerusalem above as “mother” (denoted by the idea of “freedom” expressed by Paul, which he associates with Sarah as part of his larger discourse between verses 21 and 31 of Galatians 4). However, what about the idea of Mary as mother of disciples seemingly expressed in John 19? This brings us back to the disengagement between the spiritual and temporal. If there is maternal role for Mary, we might be able to legitimately make it in a temporal context, but not in a spiritual one and not as a New Eve. For example, a typology between Mary and the earthly church or as “the Ark” might be appropriate (although I generally shy away from typologies not directly inferred by scripture, because it tends to lead us down a slippery slope).

In sum I believe that depictions of Mary made by both the church and many protestant denominations seem inconsistent with the Biblical text. I say this with the utmost respect to Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox believers whom I view as brethren. Hopefully we can discuss this in a healthy manner & maybe I might learn a thing or two. I disclose at the outset that I am no expert in Marian theology; so again my interest is in learning the proper role of Mary in Christian theology.


Thanks
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[MoreCoffee]

I'm not the one selling it so there's no need. I already know the Sword of the Spirit and its life giving results.

Words of men are not going to compare, not even worthy to be compared.

If somebody is telling me that there are more words of God than the holy scriptures, then that seems pretty important. Yet when asked for verification, check it out yourself.

My purpose is to inform those who are interested.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

My purpose is to inform those who are interested.

I'm absolutely interested in any claim from any person concerning the word of God. You kicked off the point about there being more and then I asked if you'd elaborate.

That typically shows interest.

And again, sorry if it might offend anyone if we don't simply take YOUR word for it.

There's that premise where we let God be true and every man be a liar. Remember?

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Christians can't ever forget for one minute that there are enemies sowing seed, and that the very protection of the Christian from these things happens to be the full armour of God; of which the Sword of the Spirit is a vital part.

It all traces back to who's seed it was..

 

[ThatTrueLight]

So the word of God provides built in protection against the rulers of this dark world and yet there are men who suggest that it is missing DOGMA?

Don't be so quick to dismiss the POWER of the Sword of the Spirit.. it's not like any of us have mastered it or anything like that, regardless of what they might think.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Here's a word from Peter;

Remember that Peter is an Apostle to the circumcision..

If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Here's a word from Paul (Gentile Apostle) concerning the same oracles of God;

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

 

[fhansen]

You know, I am so embarrassed for you when I read talk like that, that I think I'll just say nothing further. Let's pretend you got the last word after all.

Why pretend? You haven't really said anything anyway. Now go study. You could start with Ludwig Ott's "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma", then move on to conciliar docs. Read Catholic material if you truly want to understand Catholicism. Otherwise there's not much point in protesting it. I'm not feeling too embarrassed- sorry to hear you are. There- last word.