Is Scripture MISSING Dogmas?

[MoreCoffee]

It's from Hebrews although it's also from Ephesians 6 where Paul tells the Christian to put on the full armour of God so that he can stand against the wiles of the devil, even the rulers of this dark world.. serious deceptive business.

Anyway, the word of God is an integral part of the Armour of God, it's a Spiritual Sword that cuts to the chase instantly and in a living and powerful way.

I think that we're proving with every post how on topic this actually is.

There's NO DOGMA or anything lacking in the Sword of the Spirit which IS the word of God which abides for ever.

Seems to me that the passages are about something far more expansive than the bible. That is not to minimise the importance of the bible. But the word of God is more than the bible. Both passages say as much and the commentary also observed the same.

 

[Albion]

If the word of God is indeed to be seen as more than the wording in the Bible, it's not any unbiblical myth, legend, or speculation--in other words it is not "Sacred (sic) Tradition."

That much is absolutely above doubting.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Seems to me that the passages are about something far more expansive than the bible. That is not to minimise the importance of the bible. But the word of God is more than the bible. Both passages say as much and the commentary also observed the same.

By all means tell us then what else is the word of God besides the holy scriptures?

I'm not sure what kind of seed you're sellin here

 

[Albion]

By all means tell us then what else is the word of God besides the holy scriptures?

Well now, that's the 64 dollar question, isn't it? And then we have to ask what the Roman Catholic traditions are, the Eastern Orthodox traditions, the Oriental Orthodox traditions, the Old Catholic traditions, and then compare these legends that are supposed to be God's "other" word.

 

[SpyderByte]

I know you couldn't be talking about the Catholic Church, every dogma we've defined has scriptural evidence. Not that you would recognize it if you saw it.

I would LOVE to see the scriptural evidence of the bodily assumption....I won't hold my breath waiting for your misrepresented "proof texts".

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Well now, that's the 64 dollar question, isn't it? And then we have to ask what the Roman Catholic traditions are, the Eastern Orthodox traditions, the Oriental Orthodox traditions, the Old Catholic traditions, and then compare these legends that are supposed to be God's "other" word.

That sounds exhausting

And I don't think those seeds come with a guarantee

 

[Rick Otto]

Do we recognize our own trance - state when it is shown to us?
Pavlov and Mesmer showed us how easily our brains get trained.

 

[Albion]

That sounds exhausting

And I don't think those seeds come with a guarantee

No, I'm certain that they don't. But as SpyderByte has indicated, the claim that "every dogma we've defined has scriptural evidence" is all that needs to be said by the traditionists.

Or to put it another way, it's all that CAN be said in the absence of any scriptural backing.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

No, I'm certain that they don't. But as SpyderByte has indicated, the claim that "every dogma we've defined has scriptural evidence" is all that needs to be said by the traditionists.

Or to put it another way, it's all that CAN be said in the absence of any scriptural backing.

It's DOGMA if it's NOT in the Bible - silence being proof. Works for some denominations....

Yes, we seem to have some affirming and defending the premise of the opening post - the "Oops, the Holy Spirit forgot a whole bunch of essential, necessary, super important Dogmas! What to do, what to do?"



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

It is a foundational, dogmatic insistence in some Christian communities/denominations that while the Bible is inerrant and inspired by God, that it nonetheless is MISSING a whole bunch of really super important things that Jesus taught and that we must know and believe....


The spin goes like this....


God, the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures:


The Holy Spirit inspired the Bible; it is His inscripturated words to the faithful. And He did so inerrantly. And thus, it is infallible. But.... the thing is....... well....... the Holy Spirit did a lousy job. Because He just forgot a whole mess of really, really, really important dogmas - essential, de fide dogmas - matters of highest importance possible and greatest certainty of fact possible, matters impacting the salvation of souls. Just.... forgot! Jesus taught these (we just have NOTHING that REMOTELY indicates that)..... and thus all 12-14 Apostles taught them (we just have NOTHING that REMOTELY indicates that)..... it's just that the Holy Spirit.... well...... forgot. He told us how many fish the disciples caught one day (153) but forgot a mess of super important, critical DOGMAS we gotta believe.


What to do?


Realizing the error, God could have done a re-write. But that would have been a lot of work. God just let it stand - and hoped for the best.


"Oral"

But...... while the Holy Spirit forgot, there was/were Christian(s) who remembered! And somehow (no one knows how)...... these super important DOGMAS Jesus and all the Apostles taught that the Holy Spirit forgot to include in Scripture.... well, they survived!

Eventually (maybe many, many centuries later), one denomination kinda learned about one or more of these!!!!! And eventually (maybe many, many centuries later) it itself decided to tell Christians about this!

This is sometimes called "Apostolic Tradition" (although it can NEVER, EVER be related to ANY much less all of the Apostles). It is sometimes also called "Second Testimony"

This missing stuff tends to be whatever is UNIQUE DOGMA in that specific denomination. "Jesus taught this as de fide dogma - it's just part of the forgot stuff but this denomination learned it somehow - and here it is." Oddly, these "forgotten dogmas" are never the same....


Stools

Some communities that buy into all the above (and they do so passionately and foundationally) state that because the Bible is so.... well, see above about God forgetting..... therefore we need TWO (maybe 3 - we'll get to that) EQUAL and SUPPLIMENTAL sources for our dogma:

1. Scripture (which is good - as far as it goes)
2. Oral Stuff (which is the forgotten stuff, equally important but usually more clear).

These are like two streams that blend into one inseparable river - one source, one revelation, one truth. All the equal teachings of Jesus and the Apostles and the Early Church (it's just that..... sadly...... we have NOTHING - absolutely nothing at all that indicates that Jesus or any of the Aposltes or anyone in the First Century and often for long after that ever even heard of any of these "oral stuff" Dogmas).

Now, some add a third stool: themselves (or the leaders self chooses from among self that are pleadged to agree with self). It just reinforces the ME part.



.

Exactly which dogmas and which community or communities do you have in mind. The anonymity in the above quote may be a ruse, I am inclined to think it is.

Some will identify themselves by defending and affirming the point of the opening post. Indeed, they already have.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[fhansen]

This is all speculation. It simply cannot be proven that Scripture is the word of God-or that Sacred Tradition is not. Or that one is superior to the other. And on top of that, Sacred Scripture instructs us to cling to unwritten traditions/teachings! Again, Scripture was never intended to be some sort of exhaustive catechism. That is simply the personal opinion of some.

 

[MoreCoffee]

By all means tell us then what else is the word of God besides the holy scriptures?

I'm not sure what kind of seed you're sellin here

The Lord Jesus Christ tells us in these words:

... "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'" (Matthew 4:4)​

The word of God is what God has revealed. We have revelation in creation, written revelation in holy scripture, spiritual revelation in the Spirit's voice in the faithful, spoken revelation in the faithful transmission of the spoken words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and revelation in deeds transmitted in the liturgy and prayers of the church.

 

[Albion]

This is all speculation. .

Then it must be God's "other" word, right?

It simply cannot be proven that Scripture is the word of God

Let's save time, and leaving aside the Bible verses that do indeed say just what you said here isn't in it.... Will your observation be followed by outraged denials if someone dares to say that traditionists don't have a very high opinion of the Bible?

 

[Rick Otto]

Wow. Jesus used only scripture. Nothing's else!

 

[barryatlake]

Understanding God's Word whether by word or by letter, looks like the bible is telling us that we must listen to both the Oral Traditional Jewish Teaching Method used by Jesus along with the Holy Scripture, Both are necessary, as per bible.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

It is a foundational, dogmatic insistence in some Christian communities/denominations that while the Bible is inerrant and inspired by God, that it nonetheless is MISSING a whole bunch of really super important things that Jesus taught and that we must know and believe....


The spin goes like this....


God, the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures:


The Holy Spirit inspired the Bible; it is His inscripturated words to the faithful. And He did so inerrantly. And thus, it is infallible. But.... the thing is....... well....... the Holy Spirit did a lousy job. Because He just forgot a whole mess of really, really, really important dogmas - essential, de fide dogmas - matters of highest importance possible and greatest certainty of fact possible, matters impacting the salvation of souls. Just.... forgot! Jesus taught these (we just have NOTHING that REMOTELY indicates that)..... and thus all 12-14 Apostles taught them (we just have NOTHING that REMOTELY indicates that)..... it's just that the Holy Spirit.... well...... forgot. He told us how many fish the disciples caught one day (153) but forgot a mess of super important, critical DOGMAS we gotta believe.


What to do?


Realizing the error, God could have done a re-write. But that would have been a lot of work. God just let it stand - and hoped for the best.


"Oral"

But...... while the Holy Spirit forgot, there was/were Christian(s) who remembered! And somehow (no one knows how)...... these super important DOGMAS Jesus and all the Apostles taught that the Holy Spirit forgot to include in Scripture.... well, they survived!

Eventually (maybe many, many centuries later), one denomination kinda learned about one or more of these!!!!! And eventually (maybe many, many centuries later) it itself decided to tell Christians about this!

This is sometimes called "Apostolic Tradition" (although it can NEVER, EVER be related to ANY much less all of the Apostles). It is sometimes also called "Second Testimony"

This missing stuff tends to be whatever is UNIQUE DOGMA in that specific denomination. "Jesus taught this as de fide dogma - it's just part of the forgot stuff but this denomination learned it somehow - and here it is." Oddly, these "forgotten dogmas" are never the same....


Stools

Some communities that buy into all the above (and they do so passionately and foundationally) state that because the Bible is so.... well, see above about God forgetting..... therefore we need TWO (maybe 3 - we'll get to that) EQUAL and SUPPLIMENTAL sources for our dogma:

1. Scripture (which is good - as far as it goes)
2. Oral Stuff (which is the forgotten stuff, equally important but usually more clear).

These are like two streams that blend into one inseparable river - one source, one revelation, one truth. All the equal teachings of Jesus and the Apostles and the Early Church (it's just that..... sadly...... we have NOTHING - absolutely nothing at all that indicates that Jesus or any of the Aposltes or anyone in the First Century and often for long after that ever even heard of any of these "oral stuff" Dogmas).

Now, some add a third stool: themselves (or the leaders self chooses from among self that are pleadged to agree with self). It just reinforces the ME part.

This is all speculation.

I agree. The whole premise is speculation - but is the foundation of some faith communities.

Sacred Scripture instructs us to cling to unwritten traditions/teachings!

See post #2.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Understanding God's Word whether by word or by letter, looks like the bible is telling us that we must listen to both the Oral Traditional Jewish Teaching Method used by Jesus along with the Holy Scripture, Both are necessary, as per bible.

Here is the actual verse you allude to but don't quote or reference:

2 Thessalonians 2:15, "So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."

This says NOTHING about Dogmas Jesus and all the Apostles taught that the Holy Spirit forgot to put into Scripture. Nor does it imply that what was taught in spoken or written form was different.

And note, it says "... by US" It says nothing about some later teacher (church, denomination, sect, cult, etc.).



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[Albion]

Here is the actual verse you allude to but don't quote or reference:

2 Thessalonians 2:15, "So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."

This says NOTHING about Dogmas Jesus and all the Apostles taught that the Holy Spirit forgot to put into Scripture. Nor does it imply that what was taught in spoken or written form was different.

And note, it says "... by US" It says nothing about some later teacher (church, denomination, sect, cult, etc.).

Exactly. It's just employed as a big catchall for use in justifying any newly created doctrine. The verse--

1. Does not say what these "traditions" are. They could be simple memorials.

2. Does not say that they are different from what is to be found elsewhere in Scripture.

3. Does not say that just any tradition--such as might develop generations after Christ--are included. In fact, it specifically excludes the same from consideration. and

4. Does not place them on the same level as Scripture in any case.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Wow. Jesus used only scripture. Nothing's else!

Do you think so?

I remember Jesus talking about what was heard and then correcting it with stuff that is not in the old testament. He did that before a single word of the new testament was written.

"You have heard that it was said to the men of old,

'You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.' But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.​

"You have heard that it was said,

'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.​

"It was also said,

'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.​

"Again you have heard that it was said to the men of old,

'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.' But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything more than this comes from evil.​

"You have heard that it was said,

'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.​

"You have heard that it was said,

'You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.​

(Matthew 5:21-45)

 

[barryatlake]

Thank you MoreCoffee for that post, Also
from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Roman Catholic Dogma)

In the Roman Catholic Church, a dogma is an article of faith revealed by God, which the magisterium of the Church presents as necessary to be believed if one freely chooses to be a Catholic.[a] For example, Christian dogma states that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is the basic truth from which salvation and life is derived for Christians. Dogmas regulate the language, how the truth of the resurrection is to be believed and communicated. One dogma is only a small particle of the living Christian faith, from which it derives its meaning.[1] Roman Catholic Dogma is thus: "a truth revealed by God, which the magisterium of the Church declared as binding."[2] The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

The Church's Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.[3]

The faithful are required to accept with the divine and Catholic faith all which the Church presents either as solemn decision or as general teaching. Yet not all teachings are dogma. The faithful are only required to accept those teachings as dogma, if the Church clearly and specifically identifies them as infallible dogmas.[4] If a Catholic were to willfully deny any particular dogma they know is taught dogmatically by the Church, they would no longer be a part of the Church, since heresy immediately separates one from the Church.

Not all theological truths are dogmas. The Bible contains many sacred truths, which the faithful recognize and agree with, but which the Church has not defined as dogma. Most Church teachings are not dogma. Cardinal Avery Dulles pointed out that in the 800 pages of the Second Vatican Council documents, there is not one new statement for which infallibility is claimed.[6]