Is Scripture MISSING Dogmas? (2)

[Souldier]

Do you want to know what the truth sounds like? I'll tell you. It hurts to hear it, it really does. Its not always pleasant and joyful, but if we embrace it anyway then thats faith. No matter how much it hurts, we cannot close our ears to it. God loves faith. He loves to see people love him enough, and need Him enough to hear his chastening and endure it. Gods chastening isn't joyful but its a blessing regardless. Hes our father. Imagine that concepts. Of course he will discipline us. Amen. That is proof that he loves us and that we are His children. Most people don't want to hear it however. They are like the Israelites who begged God to stop speaking to them on the mountain because they could not bear to hear His voice.



Revelation 3: 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”




Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Hear the Heavenly Voice
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake[h] not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may[j] serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.


Hebrews 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”[a]
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

 

[Souldier]

Exodus 20:18 Now all the people witnessed the thunderings, the lightning flashes, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood afar off. 19 Then they said to Moses, “You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.”

20 And Moses said to the people, “Do not fear; for God has come to test you, and that His fear may be before you, so that you may not sin.” 21 So the people stood afar off, but Moses drew near the thick darkness where God was.


Hebrews 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that[c] may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness[d] and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned[e] or shot with an arrow.”[f] 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”[g])


Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed

Revelation 11: 15 Then the seventh angel sounded

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant[h] was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[topcare]

Dude you can't teach only Christ can, your violating your own man made doctrine. See that is why it's foolish to be a lone ranger because you can never be consistent

 

[Souldier]

Dude you can't teach only Christ can, your violating your own man made doctrine. See that is why it's foolish to be a lone ranger because you can never be consistent

I'm fellowshipping in the spirit. I never denied the value in that. G'night topcare.

 

[topcare]

Nope your trying to teach and been caught, now your trying to cover your tracks. See how refusing to follow Christ as He said and go it alone can led one astray. Foolish pride

 

[Souldier]

Nope your trying to teach and been caught, now your trying to cover your tracks. See how refusing to follow Christ as He said and go it alone can led one astray. Foolish pride

No, actually i'm learning. I get blessed by what i post. Its like God shows me things. I dont even know what i'm going to post, it just comes to me. It sure does bless me though. Thats fellowship in the spirit. Thats the bread from heaven. I love the truth and i follow it no matter how much it may hurt, and it has never failed to bless me yet. Thats why i come here, to learn and fellowship. Anyway. G'night. im done now.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Nobody "Bites Christ" in John 6.

Christ did not say "someday in the future my flesh will be food" in John 6 -- He said it already WAS and that He already WAS the bread that came down out of heaven.

THEN in John 6 He explains the SYMBOL - by saying that "literal flesh is worthless - my WORDS are spirit and are life".

In Matt 16 the disciples get smacked-down because they took the symbol of bread "TOO literally" and later realized that by that SYMBOL Christ meant "teaching".

It is plainly stated so in Matt 16.

So then - no "biting Christ" in John 6.

And no "Confecting the body soul and divinity of Christ"
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist

All such man-made-doctrines are not found in the Bible.

​

Originally Posted by fhansen

Many of us here, whether SS adherents or not, maintain that the real presence is found in the bible, most specifically John 6, and, if the doctrine isn't laid out as clearly as it could be, then you've answered the question in the OP anyway: Scripture would be missing dogma, the dogma that's always been held by the oldest churches we know of, both in the east and in the west.
​

Scripture is "missing that dogma" or... that dogma is not supported by scripture?

Mormons and JW's could come up with a host of ideas "missing from the Bible" that we would counter with "not at all supported by the Bible". One cannot sweep all error under the rug of "well that is missing from the Bible"


In John 6 -( where many like to go for some sort of transubstantiation idea ) we do not find "some day in the future you will need to bite me" or "someday in the future you will need to eat my flesh" -- Christ said it was already true.

So then the "test" is whether anyone takes that view and bites Him then and there - nobody does it because as He said in John 6 "literal flesh is worthless it is my WORDS that have life".

Same lesson about BREAD that we find in Matt 16 where it is the symbol for teaching.

Mormon's claim new revelation-1850 or so years after the fact. JWs, with a companion background to the SDA church, claim SS for their doctrines.

Thank you for you personal interpretation.

I also thank you for your personal interpretation but in the Bible we find that new revelation was going on in 1Cor 14 and all throughout that period. That is "HOW" we got the Bible - it was the Holy Spirit not the Catholic Church that came along centuries later.

And so we find that Mormons and JW's and the RCC seem to want to claim that the Bible is "missing dogma" as some might like to claim when it comes to Purgatory, baptism for the dead (in the case of Mormons) and the idea that the triune Godhead is false (in the case of JW's) or that there is no bodily resurrection or that hell is not real, or that there is release from hell to then enjoy heaven ... etc.

But the SDA doctrine is positioned "sola scriptura" as everyone knows that has read their 28 Fundamental Beliefs.

http://www.adventist.org/fileadmin/...rticles/official-statements/28Beliefs-Web.pdf


That includes the belief in what the Bible calls "prophets", and acceptance of what the Bible calls the 'gift of prophecy" -- all in 1Cor 12.

You can't point to an example of acceptance of a given Bible doctrine - as if acceptance is an example of denying Bible doctrine.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Mine is not an interpretation but its a understanding that is based on all NT scripture. It combines Pauls teaching on liberty with Pauls teaching on following the Spirit, with Christ teaching on how we get the Spirit and how we are taught by HIm, along with Johns words about not needing a teacher.

Its an understanding based on all doctrine combined. Its also based on reality and observation. I see everyone has their own so called prophets and apostles who have done nothing but cause division in the body. So i embrace liberty in the spirit and i dont follow any teacher accept those who wrote scripture.

Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

It is the Bible that commands us to accept God's prophets in instead of rejecting them.

It is the Bible that says that the prophets are significant even for Christians.

Eph 2
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.


It is one thing to have a bible -- it is another thing to accept the Words IN the Bible. All of us must strive to accept what the Bible actually says.

Eph 4
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Spiritual Gifts

7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:


...




11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13ununtill we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;



(Which happens at the 2nd coming of course)



14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

 

[Souldier]

Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

It is the Bible that commands us to accept God's prophets in instead of rejecting them.

It is the Bible that says that the prophets are significant even for Christians.

Eph 2
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.


It is one thing to have a bible -- it is another thing to accept the Words IN the Bible. All of us must strive to accept what the Bible actually says.

Eph 4
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Spiritual Gifts

7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:


...




11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13ununtill we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;



(Which happens at the 2nd coming of course)



14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

I gave scripture, you rejected it.

 

[Souldier]

Don't you guys see what paul is telling us? Hes telling us the same that John is telling us. We have the Lords spirit within and we dont need teachers and prophets. The Lord did send teachers and prophets and they are the ones who wrote the scriptures, but those teachers lead us to walk in the spirit ourself. Thats what they teach us. They say we need no teacher or prophet because we ourselves have the anointing inside. If we keep and follow the Lords commands that He and His apostles gave us, then the Lord himself will teach us all things.


Why would God promise to put His laws in our mind and write then on our heart if he wanted us to be like OC infants who need prophets and teachers?







Hebrews 1 New King James Version (NKJV)

God’s Supreme Revelation
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[a] purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[c]

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.




The Race of Faith
12 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.


25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake[h] not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

 

[BobRyan]

Don't you guys see what paul is telling us? Hes telling us the same that John is telling us. We have the Lords spirit within and we dont need teachers and prophets.

So then do you think Paul was saddened and dissappointed that he himself continued to write scripture, that John continued to see visions and write scripture - that those in 1Cor 14 were still coming to church having a revelation?

The Lord did send teachers and prophets and they are the ones who wrote the scriptures, but those teachers lead us to walk in the spirit ourself.

Which has always been true under the 'one gospel' even from the times of Adam.

John says in 1John 4:1-5 to 'test the spirits" not -- "ignore them all - they are not needed".

Paul says in 1Thess 5 -- specifically NOT to reject prophetic messages.

Paul says in 1Cor 14 that IF a prophet is given a message that anyone in church who is speaking must be seated and let the prophet speak.

When Agabus comes to Paul and predicts what will happen in Jerusalem Paul does not say 'tell the Holy Spirit to stop giving information".

Rather in 1Cor 14:1 "Desire earnestly spiritual gifts but ESPECIALLY that you may prophesy".

Thats what they teach us. They say we need no teacher or prophet because we ourselves have the anointing inside, if we keep and follow the Lords commands that they He and His apostles gave us,


Why would God promise to put His laws in our mind and write then on our heart if he wanted us to be like OC infants who need prophets and teachers?

The New Covenant given in Jer 31:31-33 is followed by a great many prophets.

Hebrews 1 New King James Version (NKJV)

God’s Supreme Revelation
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[a] purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

The book of Hebrews was written BEFORE the Gospel of John and before Revelation.

Paul wrote after that... John wrote after that...

There is no "Holy Spirit shut down" in the NT - rather 1Cor 12 the gifts of the Spirit are welcomed - and ongoing.

What is more Paul commands Timothy and Titus both to teach and preach. He never says "stop nobody needs any more preaching"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Souldier]

So then do you think Paul was saddened and dissappointed that he himself continued to write scripture, that John continued to see visions and write scripture - that those in 1Cor 14 were still coming to church having a revelation?

Whos revelation should i follow? Ellen White? Is she the reason you observe sabbath? Paul leads us away from following those OC shadows. Why then would a prophet lead us to follow them? Dont you see what paul is saying? God will write His laws in our heart and put them in our mind? Why then do we need a teacher? We dont! And thats exactly what John and Paul are trying to teach us.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I wasn't suggesting anyone was missing anything. I was only suggesting that the bible isn't missing anything.


That about covers it. The scriptures our our guide, and there are no dogmas missing.



1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.
25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. 9 The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you.

The Bible is not missing anything, except how to interpret it. That's why we turn to those who were taught from the mouths of those who listened to Christ Himself and the Apostles, themselves, and those they ordained.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The question is not what is in the bible but rather what is not. There is nothing missing.

Its like trying to debate which came first, the chicken or the egg?

The fact is that there are no dogmas in the Bible.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Very true, Souldier. If we (any of us) say that the Bible is the word of God, is divine revelation, but we don't think God did a complete job of it or didn't get it right...what does that say about what we really think of the Holy Scriptures? And of our God?

This is what everyone should ask himself--do you believe revelation or not? If it's "yes," you can't also say "but it's not done" or "it's not enough."

Not saying that you're doing this, Albion, but if you're insinuating that Catholics "don't think God did a complete job of it or didn't get it right", you'd be pretty much wrong. We don't think either of those things, we just believe there's more to it, and that he's still teaching us that.

 

[Souldier]

The Bible is not missing anything, except how to interpret it. That's why we turn to those who were taught from the mouths of those who listened to Christ Himself and the Apostles, themselves, and those they ordained.

They ordained me. I taught myself. Or rather the Lord taught me. Im not boasting, im only wanting to exalt the power of the word. When the scriptures say we need no teacher that is the truth. Don't give me prophets and teachers, just give me the word. This man struggled and stumbled over all the denominations and teachers and the blindness. I cried to God and he didn't forsake me. Thats worthy of an Amen. The Lord is my portion says my soul.


1 John 2:27King James Version (KJV)

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[Souldier]

The fact is that there are no dogmas in the Bible.

The bible is dogma, and its all we need.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Why is this so difficult for men to accept, that the church is His BODY.

For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

We absolutely accept that the body of Christ is the people. That's one sense of it. But there are many instances in the Gospels, the Epistles, and Revelation regarding the Body of Christ which we must consume. Check out Exodus, for one. In order to be passed over, the Jews had to eat the unblemished lamb AND paint its blood on their doorpost. If they did one but not the other, they would have lost their first-born.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I apologize if this offends Brother and I know that I can be the worst when it comes to trying to present scriptural truth in love, although please try to understand what it means to those who think of how insulting this is to the LORD.

One if His creatures (a man) is asking God to turn a piece of bread into Himself so that an assembly can consume it, pass it through their digestive tract, and then out their bowel, while being led to believe that it's God.
The bread is actually the body of Christ, the church of God and it is supposed to be leavened bread for that reason. We are that one bread and it's fellowship in remembering the LORD in His death til He comes. It's all about the BODY of Christ coming together to REMEMBER Him, not EAT Him.

This is going to be offensive because of its nature and that's understandable.. just try to be as understanding of a believer like myself who considers it an insult for ANY man to think that He is eating the LORD.. we certainly are FEASTING on His WORD because He is the WORD made flesh and the scriptures are God's testimony concerning His only begotten Son.. our Lord Jesus Christ.

The bolded is completely wrong. If you seriously believe that's what happens, you need further instruction on Catholicism. We do not pass Christ out of our bowels for one thing. That's a hint.

Here's what the ordained "just a man", as you say, prays: Make holy, therefore, these gifts, we pray, by sending down your Spirit upon them like the dewfall, so that they may become for us the Body + and Blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

 

[Root of Jesse]

And yet you can't even begin to fathom that it's you who profane His body when you all pretend to turn bread into the Almighty and then pass him through your digestive system.

As if that's what we do. We don't pretend anything. And we don't pass God through our digestive system. Try determining what the Church believes, just once? It would really be nice if people who criticize the Catholic Church knew what she really believes...The Church believes that Christ remains in us for 15 minutes after we consume the Body and Precious Blood. Once the accidents of bread and wine are changed, they are no longer the Body and Blood. Try investigating that!