Is Scripture MISSING Dogmas? (2)

[Souldier]

See, i have no problem with what John says. He says we need no teacher and i agree, Of course John is teaching me that and thats a clue.

 

[fhansen]

See, i have no problem with what John says. He says we need no teacher and i agree, Of course John is teaching me that and thats a clue.

Riigght. A clue to an exclusivistic outlook? I'd submit that both are true. We absolutely depend on God's internal workings-communion with Him-in order to have life. And we need the external workings: teachings, sacraments, fellowship, acts of love on our part- to foster and nurture that communion.

 

[fhansen]

Yes an those teachers are the Lord, and Paul, Peter, James and John. Thats what John and the Lord are both saying in this scripture. You need teachers but i need only these men. I need only that which was given to us in the beginning. I dont need the Pope or Ellen white. I got everything i need. I got the anointing.




1 John 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[a] abide in Him.

The Children of God
28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.





John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

The Gift of His Peace
25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

And I don't disagree with any of these passages. But I'd also assert that, if not for the continued inspiration of the church, the church that assembled and decided on the canon of the NT scripture, for example, long after its writers were gone, and the church that defended the doctrine of the Trinity in the face of wide-spread Arian heresy, you probably wouldn't even have a bible in your possession to read from-a bible that the masses, due to illiteracy, couldn't have read from anyway for centuries. But the Church taught them the sayings of Jesus, Paul, James, and John, and guided them in living accordingly.

 

[Souldier]

Riigght. A clue to an exclusivistic outlook? I'd submit that both are true. We absolutely depend on God's internal workings-communion with Him-in order to have life. And we need the external workings: teachings, sacraments, fellowship, acts of love on our part- to foster and nurture that communion.

We need what? The Pope? That contradicts John 14 and 1 John 2.

Who's right? Who''s wrong? Who should i follow? The Pope? Ellen White? How about Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Calvin, Luther?


I'll go with John 14, 1 John 2, and Philippians 4. There is nothing wrong with that. Those are three that im in agreement with.


1 John 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[d] 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

4 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[e] abide in Him.

The Children of God
28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when[f] He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.




John 14:22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

The Gift of His Peace
25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.




Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. 9 The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you.

 

[fhansen]

We need what? The Pope? That contradicts John 14 and 1 John 2.

Who's right? Who''s wrong? Who should i follow? The Pope? Ellen White? How about Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Calvin, Luther?

Well, I wouldn't bother with any ministry that began less than circa 2 millenia ago, that at least has some sort of valid claim to a historical legacy to the beginnings IOW.

I'm not here to attack you or ask you or anyone else to deny their conscience or give up a treasure they've found. I'm here to defend the CC because that's the main target of this thread and I believe that, with human fumblings and warts and all, God has nonetheless used her, as He used His chosen people for their particular purpose, to deliver His message of hope, light, and life to a lost and dying world.

 

[Souldier]

John 8:17 It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”



Matthew 23:10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[e] abide in Him.

John 14:25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

 

[Souldier]

Well, I wouldn't bother with any ministry that began less than circa 2 millenia ago, that at least has some sort of valid claim to a historical legacy to the beginnings IOW.

I'm not here to attack you or ask you or anyone else to deny their conscience or give up a treasure they've found. I'm here to defend the CC because that's the main target of this thread and I believe that, with human fumblings and warts and all, God has nonetheless used her, as He used His chosen people for their particular purpose, to deliver His message of hope, light, and life to a lost and dying world.

Historical legacy is a man made fallacy. Even paul himself says that he didn't need a letter of recommendation because his flock was his letter. Its not wise to follow letters of recommendation or historical fallacies. All we really have is the Word, i.e., scripture and the anointing within.

 

[topcare]

Well, I wouldn't bother with any ministry that began less than circa 2 millenia ago, that at least has some sort of valid claim to a historical legacy to the beginnings IOW.

I'm not here to attack you or ask you or anyone else to deny their conscience or give up a treasure they've found. I'm here to defend the CC because that's the main target of this thread and I believe that, with human fumblings and warts and all, God has nonetheless used her, as He used His chosen people for their particular purpose, to deliver His message of hope, light, and life to a lost and dying world.

I think that threatens them somewhat. I don't think it's just an attack on Catholics but also Orthodox and any Liturgical Christians who give place to Traditions and verifiable orthodox Christianity. I am of the opinion that they find it to hard to follow so try something that they deem easier to follow hence all the "I only follow the Bible" cries

 

[fhansen]

John 8:17 It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”



Matthew 23:10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[e] abide in Him.

John 14:25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, Eph 4:11

And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 1 Cor 12:28

Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. James 3:1

God uses people

 

[Souldier]

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, Eph 4:11

And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 1 Cor 12:28

Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. James 3:1

God uses people

Its strange that you keep talking about those teachers who come to teach us yet you dont learn the things they say. What is John saying here? This man is your teacher.




1 John 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[d] 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

4 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[e] abide in Him.

The Children of God
28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when[f] He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

 

[fhansen]

Its strange that you keep talking about those teachers who come to teach us yet you dont learn the things they say. What is John saying here? This man is your teacher.




1 John 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[d] 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

4 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[e] abide in Him.

The Children of God
28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when[f] He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

It's strange that you keep talking about those teachers who come to teach us yet you don't learn the things they say. What are Paul and James saying here? These men are your teachers.

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, Eph 4:11

And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 1 Cor 12:28

Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. James 3:1

And I have learned what John says, an apostle you also acknowledged as teacher. But Scripture was never meant to be taken out of context in any case.

 

[Souldier]

It's strange that you keep talking about those teachers who come to teach us yet you don't learn the things they say. What are Paul and James saying here? These men are your teachers.

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, Eph 4:11

And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 1 Cor 12:28

Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. James 3:1

And I have learned what John says, an apostle you also acknowledged as teacher. But Scripture was never meant to be taken out of context in any case.

1 Co 3 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;


1 Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[Souldier]

Hebrews 5:13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


1 John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[e] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[g] has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

 

[Souldier]

Mathew 23:8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.

 

[fhansen]

Hebrews 5:13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


1 John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[e] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[g] has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

So what's the point? The bible exists, however it arrived here, and so now we need nothing else? Maybe just start handing it out to men, women, and children, no explanation necessary? No modern-day Phillips explaining to modern-day Eunuchs? Or just let Barnes & Nobles or Amazon do the job? No need for churches, denominations, assemblies, etc, no need for creeds, no need for present-day teachers or explicators?

 

[Souldier]

So what's the point? The bible exists, however it arrived here, and so now we need nothing else? Maybe just start handing it out to men, women, and children, no explanation necessary? No modern-day Phillips explaining to modern-day Eunuchs? Or just let Barnes & Nobles or Amazon do the job? No need for churches, denominations, assemblies, etc, no need for creeds, no need for present-day teachers or explicators?

I think the scriptures i posted speak to those who are listening. Its clear than many churches, even your own, have strayed away from the scriptures and have added a bunch of stuff they should not have added.

 

[fhansen]

I think the scriptures i posted speak to those who are listening. Its clear than many churches, even your own, have strayed away from the scriptures and have added a bunch of stuff they should not have added.

It's clear that such is your personal opinion in any case. But either way, Paul did feel compelled to continue to guide and instruct believers-and even John was doing so in his letters, encouraging the ideal while recognizing the reality that sheep often continue to need shepherding. One thing I will say is that the churches can always do a better job of, er, teaching. Because people need to know and be reminded of one thing, which you appear to be aware of and which is the focus of my own teaching: the core of the New Testament is that man needs God, direct communion with God, apart from whom he can do nothing. Man was made for this relationship. And this is the basic message of Jer 31:33-34, a passage which brought me back to the faith.

 

[Souldier]

It's clear that such is your personal opinion in any case. But either way, Paul did feel compelled to continue to guide and instruct believers-and even John was doing so in his letters, encouraging the ideal while recognizing the reality that sheep often continue to need shepherding. One thing I will say is that the churches can always do a better job of, er, teaching. Because people need to know and be reminded of one thing, which you appear to be aware of and which is the focus of my own teaching: the core of the New Testament is that man needs God, direct communion with God, apart from whom he can do nothing. Man was made for this relationship. And this is the basic message of Jer 31:33-34, a passage which brought me back to the faith.

Hey, if you want to follow blind leaders then thats your choice. The scriptures however warn us about teachers. The scriptures teach us that all we need is the words of the Lord and His apostles and if we keep them then the spirit will teach us Himself. THe scriptures warn us about apostasy in the last days and false teachers leading people astray. If you want to ignore all that and follow some teacher then thats on you brother. Im not going that way however. I struggled to understand about teachers and denominations for a very long time. I stumbled over all that mess until the Lord finally opened my eyes and now i see. There is danger in following teachers because relying on them may either lead us astray, or at the very least leave us as nothing but infants in Christ. Dont you see what paul is saying about growing up into men and eating meat? Dont you see that that meat is the spirit of the Lord who will teach us all things?

 

[fhansen]

Hey, if you want to follow blind leaders then thats your choice. The scriptures however warn us about teachers. The scriptures teach us that all we need is the words of the Lord and His apostles and if we keep them then the spirit will teach us Himself. THe scriptures warn us about apostasy in the last days and false teachers leading people astray. If you want to ignore all that and follow some teacher then thats on you brother. Im not going that way however. I struggled to understand about teachers and denominations for a very long time. I stumbled over all that mess until the Lord finally opened my eyes and now i see. There is danger in following teachers because relying on them may either lead us astray, or at the very least leave us as nothing but infants in Christ. Dont you see what paul is saying about growing up into men and eating meat? Dont you see that that meat is the spirit of the Lord who will teach us all things?

People get led astray by Scripture all the time. There are good teachers and false teachers and the good ones will always help lead you, not to themselves, but to relationship with God.

 

[Souldier]

People get led astray by Scripture all the time. There are good teachers and false teachers and the good ones will always help lead you, not to themselves, but to relationship with God.

I learned from scripture alone. It was not easy, it took much faith to keep going. We walk by faith not sight however. Thats what faith is all about. In the last days people will not endure sound doctrine any longer but will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears. And many will be deceived by them. People will be deceived by teachers or scripture because they dont want to hear the truth. They are spiritually blind and deaf. However, if we truly want to see and hear then God will open our eyes and ears. All we need is scripture. Its good to seek fellowship in the spirit but im telling you that your Church and all the rest have babes teaching in them. They dont even see the truth most of the time so how can they open your eyes? You can think that is arrogant to say but its not, its just the truth.