Is Satan a real being or a term to identify any enemy or concept opposing God?

[RaymondG]

So, why do people want to think Satan is not a personal being? There can be motives for what we are ready to believe.

Why do people believe that Satan IS a personal being? What motives could there be for creating opposition to God? Why would one desire to created an outside cause for the evil thoughts in their mind.....as opposed to being tempted of our own lusts?

The children of Israel make gods of wood and stone....and this was evil in the sight of the lord. And this wood and stone did separate them from God and caused them to do much evil..... Yet, the only life or real beingness they had, was that given to them by the ones who worshiped them.

"Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

 

[ChetSinger]

Why do people believe that Satan IS a personal being?

For me, it's what a straight reading of the Bible leads to. It's also what the writers and audiences of those cultures believed. Why believe anything else?

 

[RaymondG]

For me, it's what a straight reading of the Bible leads to. It's also what the writers and audiences of those cultures believed. Why believe anything else?

It is easy to assume we know what was meant by people writing in a culture far removed from ours both in nature and time. It is hard to believe that the letter killeth and the spirit giveth life.....and that "....the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

So do I believe what I see and call it wisdom? Or do I Ask God who said He would give me wisdom liberally if I but except that I do not already know...

To believe what we see, or to know what is revealed.....

I find no fault in you believing what a straight reading of the bible tells us.

 

[ChetSinger]

It is easy to assume we know what was meant by people writing in a culture far removed from ours both in nature and time...

That's one reason we have bible scholars: to reveal the beliefs of the cultures that wrote the bible.

From what I've read the ancients were very attuned to the supernatural. Not only was the devil real to them, but other evil forces as well such as the dispossessed gods of the nations (whom Paul calls "principalities"), evil angels, and evil spirits. It's in our modern era that we've dropped those beliefs.

 

[com7fy8]

Why would one desire to created an outside cause for the evil thoughts in their mind.....as opposed to being tempted of our own lusts?

Well, first God created Adam and Eve as perfect creatures, and He said His creation was "very good". So, Adam and Eve did not of their own selves do evil; but yes we humans can blame someone outside ourselves, but James does say we are tempted of our own lusts. Even so, our Apostle Paul says there is "the spirit who works in the sons of disobedience," in Ephesians 2:2.

So, therefore I do not think humans created Satan.

But humans have been violated by the evil spirit of Satan, I get, going by how Paul says there is the evil spirit of disobedience who "works" in disobedient people.

It is not only evil thoughts, by the way, but those lusts . . . and their passions and emotions and anti-love ways of reacting . . . those lusts work very hard. And they have become people's own lusts, since Satan is sharing them with people by means of his spirit.

Jesus does say to children of Satan >

"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do," in John 8:44. So, they come from Satan and the working of his spirit, then them indeed are the person's own . . . but in sharing with Satan.

Why do people believe that Satan IS a personal being?

Partly because Jesus Himself says children of disobedience have Satan as their "father". So, a question is, then, why do people want to make up something else?

"Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

I understand that basic Cristian belief includes that Satan is not another God. Satan is inferior to Jesus. However our Apostle Paul calls Satan "the god of this world", in 2 Corinthians 4:4. So, we understand Paul means Satan is in some sort of control of evil people. But, by the way, his way is very inferior . . . like how conquerors have very inferior ways which get them very inferior things > Romans 8:37.

And, like we have offered > Paul has said Satan has "desires". A personal being has desires. So, correct Christian belief is that Satan is a conscious personal spiritual being, but he is not another God.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

Matthew 16:23 (NKJV)
23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."

Jesus calls Peter Satan and it is interesting why:

Matthew 16:21-22 (NKJV)
21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!"

This doesn't mean there is not an Archangel called Satan. My position is similar to Judaism where Satan is a metaphoric title implying evil. The verses above are straight talk and not parable but clearly Peter is not an Archangel.

The translators present Satan as a person; but is it true?

God created him as an angel who, on his own, rebelled against his Maker and dragged many angels and humanity with him to make warfare against God. Just as D-Day was the turning point in WWII, so Jesus' death and resurrection were turning points in the spiritual warfare.

One important method of interpreting the Bible is to assume what the Bible assumes. It assumes that Satan is a real, created, fallen angel; thus, we need to assume that he is. If he is only metaphoric, how did that metaphor tempt Jesus in the desert by taking him to the top of the temple, for example?

 

[fwGod]

Matthew 16:23 (NKJV)
23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."

Jesus calls Peter Satan

Another of the gospel writers said that Jesus turned from him and said "Get behind me, satan". Therefore Jesus rebuked the words that Peter had said that were not in line with the prophecies that Jesus was there to fulfill. The words had in them a demonic temptation to make a human based justifiable reason to decline to follow through with God's will.

Jesus turning his back to Peter is indicative of the verse "We fight not against flesh and blood but against principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of this world and wicked spirits in high places."

And also indicative of "The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds and everything that seeks to exalt itself against the knowledge of God. And taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ."

and it is interesting why:

Matthew 16:21-22 (NKJV)
21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!"

This doesn't mean there is not an Archangel called Satan. My position is similar to Judaism where Satan is a metaphoric title implying evil. The verses above are straight talk and not parable but clearly Peter is not an Archangel.

The translators present Satan as a person; but is it true?

When Jesus was tempted by the devil in the wilderness, he was not suffering from schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder.

Jesus called the devil "a liar and a father of lies, that the truth is not in him." Jesus said of him that he comes for only one reason, to steal, to kill and to destroy." Then Jesus said of himself, "but I have come that you have life and that more abundantly."

In every scripture that mentions the devil/satan/adversary/serpent, etc.. all indicate that he is a real albeit spiritual enemy.

 

[Tra Phull]

Real being

 

[Carl Emerson]

whether or not Satan is an actual being is debatable.

Not it is not - as you said, there are several passages that refer to him as a living being.

Try Job 2 for example...

"the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD; and Satan also came with them to present himself before Him. 2“Where have you come from?” said the LORD to Satan. “From roaming through the earth,” he replied, “and walking back and forth in it.”…

No wriggle room there to deny Satan is a living being...

 

[Carl Emerson]

Why do people believe that Satan IS a personal being?

Me - because the bible says so...

What motives could there be for creating opposition to God?

Me - God didnt create opposition to Himself...

Why would one desire to created an outside cause for the evil thoughts in their mind.....as opposed to being tempted of our own lusts?

Me - It is not an either or, it is a both and...

The children of Israel make gods of wood and stone....and this was evil in the sight of the lord. And this wood and stone did separate them from God and caused them to do much evil..... Yet, the only life or real beingness they had, was that given to them by the ones who worshiped them.

Me - Not so - Paul make it clear that Pagan Gods are demonic and not just fabrications of the mind.

"Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

Me - Exactly correct - Satan and his demons are not 'god's' or anything like God. They are just created angels corrupted by Satans pride.

Satan is an arch deceiver and even sow lies about his existence - this thread is a prime example.

 

[public hermit]

Not it is not - as you said, there are several passages that refer to him as a living being.

Try Job 2 for example...

"the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD; and Satan also came with them to present himself before Him. 2“Where have you come from?” said the LORD to Satan. “From roaming through the earth,” he replied, “and walking back and forth in it.”…

No wriggle room there to deny Satan is a living being...

So, who wrote Job? The conversation between God and Satan is written in the 3rd person, who was that? Who watched that conversation and then came to earth to give the report? It wasn't Job. It wasn't his less-than-helpful friends. Was it the person who recorded their conversations? Did that person go to heaven, record that conversation, and then come to earth and record the speeches of Job and his friends? At this point, you will have to make up some scenario to secure your conviction that Satan is an actual being. Ad hoc, of course. Of all the passages you could have chosen you decided to choose that one. There's plenty of wiggle room there.

So yeah, it's debatable. We're debating it right now.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes you can wriggle out of anything as you so admirably demonstrate.

'Did God say' is wringing in my ears...

'Yes He did' is the right answer.

The scripture is meant to be a mirror - not a puzzle...

 

[public hermit]

Yes you can wriggle out of anything as you so admirably demonstrate.

'Did God say' is wringing in my ears...

'Yes He did' is the right answer.

The scripture is meant to be a mirror - not a puzzle...

My point is, when Christians act like everything we believe is just obviously true we disregard the fact that some people will have genuine questions. That's at best. At worst, we treat those who have genuine questions as if their faith is suspect. It's disingenuous and unhelpful.

Someone asked a genuine question and I responded by admitting that the topic is debated and then gave a reply based on the word as it is used in the scriptures. For whatever reason, you decided to take me to task for saying it is debatable. What's your agenda? Do you like talking to me? Did you miss my posts? Is Public Hermit your favorite poster? Or, did you want to virtue signal how firmly you believe in Satan? I don't know.

 

[Tom 1]

Yes you can wriggle out of anything as you so admirably demonstrate.

'Did God say' is wringing in my ears...

'Yes He did' is the right answer.

The scripture is meant to be a mirror - not a puzzle...

We don’t have brains in order to avoid thinking. Jewish writers from antiquity certainly didn’t take that approach, if they had the bible actually would be the simplistic tale it’s often taken to be.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Our primary response to Scripture is meant to be from the heart where the indwelling Spirit guides us into all truth. Jesus himself mentioned the Scriptires to be a mirror - I think His direct word trumps what we think are cultural practices.

 

[Carl Emerson]

My point is, when Christians act like everything we believe is just obviously true we disregard the fact that some people will have genuine questions. That's at best. At worst, we treat those who have genuine questions as if their faith is suspect. It's disingenuous and unhelpful.

Someone asked a genuine question and I responded by admitting that the topic is debated and then gave a reply based on the word as it is used in the scriptures. For whatever reason, you decided to take me to task for saying it is debatable. What's your agenda? Do you like talking to me? Did you miss my posts? Is Public Hermit your favorite poster? Or, did you want to virtue signal how firmly you believe in Satan? I don't know.

Tell me, if you don't mind, how do you view and interact with Scripture? Do you think He made a life manual available for the intellectually gifted only?

 

[public hermit]

Tell me, if you don't mind, how do you view and interact with Scripture? Do you think He made a life manual available for the intellectually gifted only?

No, I don't. I believe the scriptures are multivalent and God uses them (via the Spirit) to meet each person where they are at, in order to bring them to faith in Christ and promote their transformation into his image. The scriptures are a means to an end and not an end in themselves. Christ is always the end to which they work. In other words, the scriptures serve Christ. They bear witness to him. That being the case, how I read a passage may be in significant ways different than how, say, a Middle Eastern woman might. That doesn't mean only one of us is right. It means that God can use the same scriptures in different ways to bring about the same result.

Think of how Jesus interpreted Moses' serpent allegorically (John 3.14). If all I knew was the Numbers' account of Moses' serpent, I would have never seen that interpretation coming. That tells me the face value of a text may not be the only meaning. It also tells me to take some humility and understand that the scriptures are much richer and deeper than any interpretation I receive.

More to the point, let's assume that someone doesn't hold that Satan is an actual being. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that this individual sees "Satan" as representing real evil as exemplified in the horrendous acts that humans commit and the evil impulses that are rooted in the human heart. And, let's further assume that they reject evil in all its forms and are truly committed to Christ in word and deed. What does that mean? Does that mean they can't have real faith in Christ if they don't believe in a literal Satan? I would say not. Who knows? Maybe when they enter into the presence of God they will learn there was really a being named "Satan." I assume we will all be surprised to learn some things on that Day. Whatever the case, the goal is always faith and life in Christ.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes I expect at judgement we will be asked what we did or didn't do. Not what we believed.

However... you said...

for the sake of argument, that this individual sees "Satan" as representing real evil as exemplified in the horrendous acts that humans commit and the evil impulses that are rooted in the human heart.

This claim runs counter to the creation of man and woman who are created 'good'.

How could Eve be both 'good' and have evil impulses.

However if we see that Satan was an entity who fell and was corrupted before the garden incident, this contradiction disappears. Eve had no experience of deception, was in fact 'good' and because of this was an easy target.

Likewise Jesus - if Satan is merely the non personal representation of evil desires within humans, then when Jesus was led of the spirit into the wilderness, the temptations he faced would need to have come from within Him which means Jesus was not sinless.
This is a pretty serious claim - maybe it is time to review your theology. There were no other human there to represent evil desires, just Jesus and the devil. So if you believe this was an internal struggle and not an encounter with an actual seperate being - Houston we have a problem...

 

[public hermit]

Yes I expect at judgement we will be asked what we did or didn't do. Not what we believed.

However... you said...



This claim runs counter to the creation of man and woman who are created 'good'.

How could Eve be both 'good' and have evil impulses.

However if we see that Satan was an entity who fell and was corrupted before the garden incident, this contradiction disappears. Eve had no experience of deception, was in fact 'good' and because of this was an easy target.

Likewise Jesus - if Satan is merely the non personal representation of evil desires within humans, then when Jesus was led of the spirit into the wilderness, the temptations he faced would need to have come from within Him which means Jesus was not sinless.
This is a pretty serious claim - maybe it is time to review your theology. There were no other human there to represent evil desires, just Jesus and the devil. So if you believe this was an internal struggle and not an encounter with an actual seperate being - Houston we have a problem...

What on God's green earth are you talking about? You are arguing with a hypothetical. I said in my initial post I see no reason to assume, out of hand, that Satan is not an actual being. The hypothetical I described was not a description of myself. Moreover, you have dodged the point of what I was getting at. So, let me make it easy for you.

Do you think that someone who does not believe Satan is an actual being can have saving faith? In other words, must one believe in Satan to be saved? What's your answer, Carl?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Thanks for making it easy for me... I really needed that.

Yes of course one might be saved not realising Satan is a being, but fundamental to salvation is knowing who Jesus is and that He is Holy and what He did for us on the Cross.