DoubtfulSalvation
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So, you also believe that person who loses their salvation can never be saved again, correct?
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Yes, scripture says salvation is conditional on continued cooperation with God's grace. Only those who remain faithful to the end will be saved.
What do you mean you don't see a connection to what I'm saying? You objected to the number of Bible verses I posted to be read in dealing with what Scripture teaches, to which i replied such usage and reading is what preachers and seekers of Truth engaged in. Thus if you are to be one so must you, if you want to Biblically ascertain what it teaches.I've read the bible, I don't see a connection to what you're saying.
No, I do not see that. What is your basis for determining right from wrong?As much as I know the apostles when they quoted scripture it was interwoven with their teachings, sometimes they directly quoted verses, sometimes they got it wrong. Can you see that.
The whole point is that the whole thing was designed as a crucible, in which something very special is created, and Christ is the first fruits of the entire thing, and we are the rest in whom Christ is formed. So staying true to the Spirit of Christ that is within you only shows that Christ has been formed within you and the word has had its intended effect in you. This is the Power of Salvation that is denied by those who practice lawlessness in which case they have failed the testing.Question. Are you being divinely clever and suggesting that you have an illusive answer to the question proposed? If so, please skip the 2000 year old literary rhetoric and tell us what the answer is (parables not required). Also, I may have missed a Sunday school lesson at some point, but where does it say that one of the trees was more difficult to find than the other?
After accepting God's sacrifice, his son Jesus the Christ. And from there acquiring salvation from sin and destruction/hell, is it on the condition that you remain faithful to Jesus?
If the conversion is genuine bearing fruit, the required effect of salvation, is inevitable. The Word is described as seed, there are actually two kinds of seed, the Word and that of Satan. When Jesus confronts the Scribes and Pharisees they say we are the seed of Abraham. Jesus tells them, no you are the seed of Satan. Speaking of Judas, Jesus says one of you is a devil. We are told early in James we are born of incorruptible seed, encouraged to receive the ingrafted Word. What does fruit have in it? Seed.After accepting God's sacrifice, his son Jesus the Christ. And from there acquiring salvation from sin and destruction/hell, is it on the condition that you remain faithful to Jesus?
How faithful do you have to be? How much "cooperation" is required? Is anyone perfect in that regard? How imperfect can you be?Yes, scripture says salvation is conditional on continued cooperation with God's grace. Only those who remain faithful to the end will be saved.
How faithful do you have to be? How much "cooperation" is required? Is anyone perfect in that regard? How imperfect can you be?
I did not mean no one can know when they were saved. I wrote it the way I did because I was addressing the post directly to the original poster whose religion is listed as non-Christian.I find more than a few things I respectfully disagree with about your post, but I wanted to address the flip flopping on whether or not a person can know there saved. First you say that a person who has genuinely believed is saved, but wont know he is saved. Then you say that eventually they might know after some time, which really doesn't make any sense at all. You can know your saved, because salvation is not an over complicated issues as the Catholic and Armenians might make it. I'm just going to post this below
John 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine
Not the only verse that exists like this, but there are definitely no verses that say a person doesn't/can't know their saved. However, I do understand that some people have doubts/fears regardless and that can be normal if you fear God.
Perhaps that's the part you get to work out with fear and trembling.
I did not mean no one can know when they were saved. I wrote it the way I did because I was addressing the post directly to the original poster whose religion is listed as non-Christian.
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Matthew 7:22-23, 1984 NIV)
These people thought they were saved, but were not. It is possible for a person to know incorrectly whether they are saved or not.
If you examine the testimonies of enough people you will see that many do not know when they were saved. Some people were raised Christian, but then lived in a worldly way, then turned back to God. People could even turn away after that, perhaps due to it being hard for them to accept God would allow a certain tragedy that struck their life. And then turn back to God again. When was he saved? Obviously, he may not know.
It is God who is the judge. It is he who decides if someone is saved or not. What matters is what they believe about Jesus, not what they believe about their own saved/unsaved condition. No one knows the mind of God unless the Holy Spirit reveals it to him or her.
As we've seen dozens of times here on CF, the folks who most earnestly insist that we must keep the Law all our lives, never commit a sin after conversion, or earn our salvation by performing good works...How faithful do you have to be? How much "cooperation" is required? Is anyone perfect in that regard? How imperfect can you be?
Now I am confused, salvation is unconditional, but it is possible to fall away?Salvation is by no means conditional
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance...
After accepting God's sacrifice, his son Jesus the Christ. And from there acquiring salvation from sin and destruction/hell, is it on the condition that you remain faithful to Jesus?
I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk, but that has to be one of the silliest things I've ever heard. If your individual understanding about what's required from God to maintain your salvation is some weird personal journey that you may not even get correct is irresponsible on God's part. Everyone wants to take away from God's perfect work on the cross and substitute it with their own works or ways to please God, just like Cain with his originally rejected sacrifice. Did that lead to a life filled with perfect holiness? No, it ended with the murder of Abel. Salvation is by no means conditional and if it were the new testament would have to be about 7,000 times the size that it is now, just to make sure man was perfectly educated on the can and cannots of his own salvation. It's the slipperiest slope to be on and that is why salvation can never rest in the hands of man and only in the hands of God.
Who's to say how much sin gets you kicked un-born from God's kingdom, and how much of that can come from the sins of omission? Who can say that they can perfectly obey God at all times, so does it sorta count as long as you try as hard as you can? See how ridiculous that sounds from both the viewpoint of man and God?
It's also interesting to note that this notion of man trying to obey his way into heaven and never really knowing if he's saved is shared with one of the other largest religions in the world Islam. It's also a popular belief in Catholicism as well. I'm not saying that their aren't passages that make what you suggest seem 1% plausible, but I'm also saying that for every verse that exist for that 1% their is a NT full of verses that support the true belief that salvation is solely contingent upon Christ finished work on the cross, hence the whole "it is finished" bit from Jesus before he gave up the Ghost.
I'd also like to know how one sells this type of Gospel when soul winning. "Well, Jimmy, believing Christ sacrifice is wonderful and all, but if your not a big sinless producer for the kingdom you're a goner!". I don't even think I did the silliness of the subject in question justice.
Finally, just remember that if you do believe in conditional salvation you had better make sure that you do NOT ever lose it, because once the salvation is lost, you can NEVER gain it back. This is stated in a verse that is sorely misused and misread by those who want to ignore Christs work on the cross.
Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
You can't crucify Christ afresh, because he came to die once for all sin 1 Peter 3:18. So, you'll have to settle for his original sacrifice and the grace that he provided to anyone who accepts and believes on him. Than repentance naturally occurs, because the Holy Spirit now lives inside of you and guides you through what is right and wrong and starts a life long journey of Sanctification which isn't over until Christ resurrects his bride.
Now I am confused, salvation is unconditional, but it is possible to fall away?
I suspect we do not disagree, but rather you may be misinterpreting my post. Salvation is by grace alone through what Jesus has done for us. There is nothing we can add to or take away from that. (I understand that some people believe that salvation is through faith and works. I am not one of them.)The confusion that stems between us then is not your original post, but what appears to be our disagreement on the views of salvation. Christ completed work on the cross (grace) vs whatever style of works gospel you believe in, but don't want to call it a works gospel (cause that sounds bad), but definitely think you have to be sinless or obey your way into heaven (I've heard them all). For this, you can read my above post to the other gentleman I was speaking with.
The answer to this depends on who you ask. Fortunately knowing the answer isn't necessary to be saved. Anyone who is trying to do the absolute minimum to be saved has one serious spiritual problem or another.Now I am confused, salvation is unconditional, but it is possible to fall away?
That passage is hypothetical...in the since that Jesus is the end of the law..for those who believe..knowing this the author knows that what one believes will affect their behavior. He cures them of any thought of anything left in the law by saying....there is no repentance under it...all sacrifices were shadows of Christ....to try to live by it and fail to keep it when there are no sacrifices of animals left to cover sin...would mean there is no repentance under it. Only Jesus is the way, if one falls to be forgiven for sins.Hebrews 6:4-6 gets quoted so many times by people who reject true faith in Jesus Christ. When reading the passage it is saying that it would be impossible to renew someone back to repentance if they were to fall away. Meaning that if you believe you can turn away from your salvation or "lose it", than you will never be able to get it back. I think this is just one of about 50 passages that are sorely misused and understood by people who oppose Christ true work on the cross and that is that no work is actually required for salvation. And yes, before someone starts up with the James 2 comments, I do understand that true belief will generate true works, but works is not a requisite for salvation. I also don't view repentance as a work, as it's really nothing more than a mental process or realization of what sin is in our lives and the Holy Spirit does the rest through the starting of the sanctification process, which lasts a life time.
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