Is salvation conditional?

[BrianJK]

Do I want to be smart about my theological choices in life? Yes! So, by all means accuse away. Your unwillingness to discuss the obvious flaws in your doctrine is quite frankly not what I expected. I wrote to you two paragraphs with some verses attached to support my overall opinion on salvation. See, we are talking about salvation overall, but to properly do so you have to discuss many sub points that underline each of our theological positions. Especially someone who has an extremely convoluted/over complex work for yourself salvation like you do. I know you probably will not come into my line of thinking at this point, but please don't make it this abundantly clear that you probably didn't read my post at all or any of the resources provided. I've only addressed the issues that you've highlighted since your original post. You not only do yourself an injustice by not owning up to your beliefs and you do me an injustice by not making sure I can go to heaven.

So, yes, I do believe in being thorough when it comes to something as important as salvation. I'd hoped that you would agree on that in the least. If you don't have answers to my points raised in my last post, than we have nothing left to say to each other about the topic. Oh, you can also break up my post over a couple of weeks if that is more simple. I'm willing to wait.

I see. It seems you are most willing to insult and misrepresent other soteriological interpretation while insisting that everyone carefully consider yours. Sounds less than fair to me, but we'll see what I can get to in the next few days. In the meantime, let me see if I can do some quick internet searches to post a non-Calvinist website that I can ask you consider in turn.

http://awesleyansresponse.blogspot.com/2009/11/apostasy-and-endurance.html?m=1

 

[Hallstone]

Life is not a test.

Jeremiah 17:10 "I, the LORD, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give to each man according to his ways,
According to the results of his deeds.
and also:
Rev 2:7 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’
and also:
John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”
1John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

I see. It seems you are most willing to insult and misrepresent other soteriological interpretation while insisting that everyone carefully consider yours. Sounds less than fair to me, but we'll see what I can get to in the next few days. In the meantime, let me see if I can do some quick internet searches to post a non-Calvinist website that I can ask you consider in turn.

http://awesleyansresponse.blogspot.com/2009/11/apostasy-and-endurance.html?m=1

What you consider insulting, I consider defending sound biblical doctrine from Christ and his apostles (especially Paul). Nothing is fair in life and that's a good lesson to learn and at the end of the day someone is going to either be in line with the Bible or not. Not everyone can be correct, no? So, I don't really understand what you are so offended about. I make no apologies for drawing a hard line in the sand when it comes to salvation, as Christ is the foundation of the church and salvation is the framework on which it stands. With that being said I'm merely doing my part to make sure the correct information on Biblical salvation gets spread and answered for. I don't shy away from posts, because they're too large, or continue to insist that the other party is some how dirty or misrepresenting something/someone (which I haven't done. I don't believe). So who's accusing and making insults in the end, truly? I never once misrepresented other soteriological positions. You stated your opinion and I stated mine. I believe yours and others like you who espouse a works salvation to be false (just like the Bible) whether you work to get salvation or work to maintain, its all the same. It's pretty simple, just for a simple guy such as yourself (Don't confuse this with an insult. You can look above and see for yourself that came as a description of yourself).

I would actually love to read your website, but will probably do so tomorrow as it's pretty late here on the east coast and I would want to give it the proper look through it deserves. But I'll be hesitant to post any questions in fear that the length of my concerns and evidence against them may deter you from giving any conclusive evidence for your beliefs and will most likely result in comments about me being too smart or caring too much about my theological position (That's fair, right?). Not trying to be "smart", just trying to be brutally honest. Thank you for sharing your information. I promise I will read it the first chance I get tomorrow.

One last thing, because I apparently love to be long winded. You mentioned in the previous post that I want people to consider my position, but the truth is people rarely do. You can offer up the resources or the answers and they either shy away completely or try to redirect the topic. I had one gentleman who shares your beliefs just completely ignore my posts to him. At least you still respond, that's a credit to your beliefs to some extent.

 

[fhansen]

After accepting God's sacrifice, his son Jesus the Christ. And from there acquiring salvation from sin and destruction/hell, is it on the condition that you remain faithful to Jesus?

Of course, if we go by Scripture

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

Of course, if we go by Scripture

Unless your big on reading the whole bible. Lot of other things I could say here, but I'll just this little nugget of truth around.

2 Timothy 2:13

if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

 

[Geralt]

conditional presumes something is also temporal and also dependent.

a conditional salvation also means it is temporary not permanent, and also dependent (on mans performance).

After accepting God's sacrifice, his son Jesus the Christ. And from there acquiring salvation from sin and destruction/hell, is it on the condition that you remain faithful to Jesus?

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

conditional presumes something is also temporal and also dependent.

a conditional salvation also means it is temporary not permanent, and also dependent (on mans performance).

I believe you are getting that since salvation is eternal and something received once belief in Christ has been established then it cannot be lost. If that's the case then I agree with wholeheartedly.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

i must apologize for the errors typed in my last post. I could barely be understood lol. It is clearly bed time.

 

[believeume]

Jeremiah 17:10 "I, the LORD, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give to each man according to his ways,
According to the results of his deeds.
and also:
Rev 2:7 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’
and also:
John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”
1John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin

Do you really think you're been tested 24/7?

 

[believeume]

Unless your big on reading the whole bible. Lot of other things I could say here, but I'll just this little nugget of truth around.

2 Timothy 2:13

if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

Nugget, mmmm.

 

[believeume]

conditional presumes something is also temporal and also dependent.

a conditional salvation also means it is temporary not permanent, and also dependent (on mans performance).

Can it be established that salvation is or isn't conditional.

Try asking Jesus himself, he knows.

 

[stephen583]

Absolutely salvation is conditional. It is conditional from the standpoint after someone accepts the sacrifice and shed blood of Jesus Christ as payment for their sins, they must also thereafter make their lives a "living" sacrifice to God each and every day by doing His Will, (Romans 12:1).

In the Gospel, Jesus warns implicitly.. "anyone who sets their hand to the plow and then looks back, is not fit to enter into the Kingdom of God" (Luke 9:62).

There is no such thing as "Once Saved, Always Saved" and merely acknowledging Jesus is the Son of God doesn't save anyone. Believe me, Satan knows exactly who Jesus is, and he isn't saved, is he ?!

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Not really, it's the key to the scriptures and finding the wisdom to know right from wrong.

Pro 18:1 Through desire a man, having separated himself, seeketh and intermeddleth with all wisdom.

Wrong. Motivation is no more the basis for determining right from wrong than it is the basis for determining the right way to get home.

To have a basis for determining right from wrong is to have a underlying support or foundation which provides the justification for the reasoning and conclusions regarding what is right from wrong.

Desire itself has a basis. You may desire to escape a burning building, but that desire itself has a basis.

 

[believeume]

Wrong. Motivation is no more the basis for determining right from wrong than it is the basis for determining the right way to get home.

To have a basis for determining right from wrong is to have a underlying support or foundation which provides the justification for the reasoning and conclusions regarding what is right from wrong.

Desire itself has a basis. You may desire to escape a burning building, but that desire itself has a basis.

Yeah I understand, you do need a underlining support.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

If man could work out their own salvation then God would be in debt to man.

Jesus saves us all by himself. We do not work to keep what Jesus died to give us.

We no more work out our own salvation than we worked to be washed from our sins by believing, which is a choice enabled and motivated by God, to His glory.

Likewise He enables and motivates us to continue in the faith, "working out" our faith which effects works, versus having "an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God" (Heb. 3:12) and we be condemned with the rest of the world, (1Co. 11:32) but which initial and continual believing we otherwise could not and would not do apart from God working in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. (Phil. 2:12,13)

But while man can claim no credit for choosing to believe, he must take credit for choosing no to, and which believers as believers are warned against doing, as briefly shown, by God's grace.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Yeah I understand, you do need a underlining support.

Well you're up early or late! Gall bladder pain for me.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

conditional presumes something is also temporal and also dependent.

a conditional salvation also means it is temporary not permanent, and also dependent (on mans performance).

It is conditional upon believing - which God enables and motivates, and which man otherwise would not and could not do - and which Biblical faith effects following the Object of said faith, obeying the light one has, and repenting when convicted of not doing so.

But the effects of saving faith are not the cause of salvation, as if, having been justified by pure grace thru faith, man then earns eternal life "by the grace of God," or otherwise is said to become actually, practically become good enough in character (in this life or via Roman purgatory) to be with God.

 

[believeume]

Well you're up early or late! Gall bladder pain for me.

Actually it's early in the night.

I can't do anything about your gall bladder pain. Maybe make you laugh, I'll do something real funny soon

Be on the look out.

 

[Geralt]

i would start upon God enabling->believing,

rather than starting in believing->enabling.​

Faith after all is a gift from God. so how can you have faith or believe if God does not give it first ?

It is conditional upon believing - which God enables and motivates, and which man otherwise would not and could not do - and which Biblical faith effects following the Object of said faith, obeying the light one has, and repenting when convicted of not doing so.

But the effects of saving faith are not the cause of salvation, as if, having been justified by pure grace thru faith, man then earns eternal life "by the grace of God," or otherwise is said to become actually, practically become good enough in character (in this life or via Roman purgatory) to be with God.

 

[Geralt]

well it depends on your starting point.

- if you believe salvation starts from the will of man, then you have an uncertain, conditional event.

- if you believe salvation starts from the will of God (whose will always come into fruition - 'let there be..and there was'), then you have a certain permanent event.

- the compromised/ middle ground option is the humanized (version of) god, who wills something yet can be supplanted by his creatures will. mythical pagan god's of both ancient and modern history (obviously concocted by man's own imagination), and even in many christian circles promotes this view of god whose will is subject to his creature. i would call it a 'convenient' god.

your choice.

Can it be established that salvation is or isn't conditional.
Try asking Jesus himself, he knows.