Is salvation conditional?

[St_Worm2]

Depends on your view of salvation. The Catholic view is synergistic, that is to say, God works and man works works of righteousness. So just being faithful to Jesus would not produce salvation on Catholicism.

Hi UG, does trying to be "faithful to Jesus" "produce salvation" outside of Catholicism then

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[Berean777]

Paul wrote something different in his letter to Timothy for all of us who are Ragamuffin Christians:
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.(1 Timothy 1)

The Old Covenant was a conditional contract between God and the house of Israel.

The New Covenant is a conditional contact between Christ and each individual sheep.

Jesus would say many are called, but yet only a few chosen, that is not every one that says Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

We are individually in contact with Christ Jesus, that is why Paul says.....

I am a prisoner of Christ.

We need to understand when Christ bailed us out to be our ransom paid in full, we walked as free men, under the bailiffs condition that stated, we must stay in Christ in order to be pardoned from the letter of the law that stated we are guilty as charged. So we have been bailed out with a bail bond and so we must abide by the conditions, which makes us prisoners of Christ Jesus.

So we are really on parole and if we don't stay in Christ our contract will be invalidated by the bailiff who is God the Father. So the ransom paid is for the condition of good behaviour bond which places us under the bailiff's conditions.

Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 1:9)

Those people when bailed out, who break their parole conditions, are then placed again under custody. Christians who run away from their parole conditions are ones who do not continue in Christ and his teachings.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So if it's in God's hands primarily, how does he ever lose those to hell.

The only way to be damned is to damn ourselves.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[believeume]

The only way to be damned is to damn ourselves.

-CryptoLutheran

Hold on...

That felt better.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hi UG, does trying to be "faithful to Jesus" "produce salvation" outside of Catholicism then

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

Trying to find some official Catholic teaching on the subject I found this in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity.""

Catholic teaching is that "outside the Church there is no salvation" and that the Church which is in communion with the Bishop of Rome is, indeed, the Church--the Una Sancta. However Catholic teaching is also that there are those who are "invincibly ignorant" and therefore Christians who belong to other churches (Protestants and Orthodox) are not excluded from salvation in Christ because Christ does indeed use them--through the Scriptures, the gifts of the Spirit, and "visible elements" (e.g. Baptism). And based on the above, it would seem that Catholic teaching is that the calling of Christ and the Spirit even in these communions which are outside of the Church proper are used by Christ to call out and reach people to Christ, and ultimately and ideally to full communion with the truth in the Church proper. However if one goes their entire life never knowing that the [Roman] Catholic Church is the fullness of the truth and the one true Church of Jesus Christ, this will not be held against them because they were invincibly ignorant. This does not mean simply never having heard someone say "Catholicism is the one true Church", but that one does not know that this is true--it is only held against a person if they know and believe it is the one true Church but refuse it anyway.

Therefore you and I as Protestants are recognized as fellow Christians, by our common Baptism, and our shared faith and hope in the Son of God. We are regarded as "separated brethren" because we lack the fullness of the faith, and the fullness of the truth because we are outside of communion with Rome and therefore not part of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church (from Rome's perspective, not ours obviously)--and therefore our salvation is based upon our knowledge of the truth, even if limited, and because we share in the one Baptism and trust in the same Jesus. To that end, from a Catholic perspective (as best as I understand it) we as Protestants have no less hope of salvation than Catholics themselves, to that end we stand the same before the Throne of Christ and it will be entirely based on His Judgment when the time comes to be judged.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hold on...

That felt better.

Was there a part of my answer that you wanted me to clarify or expand upon?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[joshua 1 9]

After accepting God's sacrifice, his son Jesus the Christ. And from there acquiring salvation from sin and destruction/hell, is it on the condition that you remain faithful to Jesus?

There are three things to consider: covenant, testament & dispensation. Dispensation has to do with time and we are told that time does have a limit. The Old Covenant ended and the New Covenant began. A Covenant or a Testament is an agreement. IF we do our part of the Covenant then we can be sure that God will do His part. Every promise of God comes with a requirement on our part. For example we are told:"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God." Clearly we can see here what it is our part of the promise to fulfill. If we do what we are told to do, then we can be sure that God will keep His part of the promise.

 

[believeume]

Was there a part of my answer that you wanted me to clarify or expand upon?

-CryptoLutheran

No you covered it pretty well.

 

[believeume]

There are three things to consider: covenant, testament & dispensation. Dispensation has to do with time and we are told that time does have a limit. The Old Covenant ended and the New Covenant began. A Covenant or a Testament is an agreement. IF we do our part of the Covenant then we can be sure that God will do His part. Every promise of God comes with a requirement on our part. For example we are told:"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God." Clearly we can see here what it is our part of the promise to fulfill. If we do what we are told to do, then we can be sure that God will keep His part of the promise.

If this God exists, he has broken his promises and owes me big.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

That is an excellent question, believeume. Assuming one is genuinely saved to begin with, can one leave their salvation behind and be un-saved through losing/leaving one's faith. Scripture is not entirely clear on this subject.

Paul tells us:

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 8:38-39)

Yet the author of Hebrews tells us:

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
(Hebrews 6:4-6)

There are two ways that we can reconcile these two passages. Some would say that Paul does not exclude someone deliberately walking away from their faith. On the other hand, those who hold to eternal security believe that the passage in Hebrews is speaking of people who were never truly saved. They would contend that the word "partakers" in the phrase "partakers of the Holy Spirit" does not mean posession/indwelling, but only an experience that included the Spirit.

The answer ultimately, in my mind, is that God does not intend us to be absolutely certain of our salvation as long as we are not walking in faith with Him. There are other passages on both sides of the debate.

So, if one wants to be certain of their salvation, walk in faith, trusting in Jesus, and everything will work itself out.

Hebrews 6:4-6 gets quoted so many times by people who reject true faith in Jesus Christ. When reading the passage it is saying that it would be impossible to renew someone back to repentance if they were to fall away. Meaning that if you believe you can turn away from your salvation or "lose it", than you will never be able to get it back. I think this is just one of about 50 passages that are sorely misused and understood by people who oppose Christ true work on the cross and that is that no work is actually required for salvation. And yes, before someone starts up with the James 2 comments, I do understand that true belief will generate true works, but works is not a requisite for salvation. I also don't view repentance as a work, as it's really nothing more than a mental process or realization of what sin is in our lives and the Holy Spirit does the rest through the starting of the sanctification process, which lasts a life time.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

In Biblical terminology, you need to genuinely believe (trust, have faith) in Jesus. God will judge people according to their hearts. The Bible isn't clear on the minimum to be saved, because God's call is for people to devote themselves to him, not how they can squeak past punishment. If one thinks he is saved, but is not at least genuinely thankful to God for it, then they may actually have saving faith.

As a result of the Bible not clearly stating the minimum to be saved, humans have come up with lots of attempts to describe exactly what the minimum is to be saved is, but the detailed arguments need not necessarily be exactly the same for each person. God will judge people according to their hearts, not which pieces of information are in their minds. e.g., does one need to believe that God, the Father raised Jesus, the Son of God from the dead to be saved?

Here's the way I describe the "minimum," although as I said, only being interested in the minimum or examining the minimum might not be sufficient. In James chapter 2, James describes two kinds of faith ("faith" and "dead faith"). Saving faith always results in actions according to that faith. These two kinds of faith are applicable to more than just salvation.

If I tell you a meteor is going to crash into your office in the next few minutes, you probably wouldn't believe me. If you then saw an article on an Internet web site that a meteor was about to crash within a block of you, your faith that it wasn't going to happen might be shaken up. If you heard the local warning sirens and police using bullhorns to tell people to evacuate, you might believe the meteor was coming, but "who could really know if it was going to hit your office?" If three of your friends were at the window and said they could see the meteor and it was headed right at the window but a shower of dust prevented you from seeing the meteor for yourself, you would probably believe them enough to act on that information immediately. Only the last one is saving faith. The point is, you reached a point of genuine belief the meteor would hit your office, and as a result you acted on it—and it had nothing to do with the action you did or didn't take (leaving the building or not). At the end of every day, you leave the building, but on those other days leaving the building had nothing to do with faith about a meteor. What matters is what the faith was like in your heart about the meteor coming.

One way to describe the absolute minimum requirements is that one must:

• Believe God is real
• Believe that God sent his Son, Jesus, the Christ to pay the penalty of our sins for us
• Believe God is GOD (has the right to tell us what is right and wrong and to hold us accountable)
• Accept God as one's GOD (yield to this Lordship and thus, his commands)

Having saving faith in these will always result in a person taking action from their heart (not because they think they're "supposed" to take action).

Beyond these basic points, it matters who you ask, but more importantly it matters what the context is in which you are asking. The salvation message could include other (also important) things. Does the person believe we have all done wrong and have no way to pay for our wrongs (we can't change what we did in the past)? Does a person need to believe what God said in the Bible, such as God, the Father raised Jesus from the dead?

A person who has genuinely believed is saved, but he won't know he is saved. The desire to know one's Lord better is the result of genuine salvation. The pursuit to know about God more (and know him better personally) will raise questions in a person's heart and mind about what God asserts in the Bible. After understanding what God said, believing (the kind that turns into actions) what he said will grow the person's faith. Eventually there will be enough faith that a person knows they are saved. Doubts will arise along the way. How one handles those doubts matters a huge amount. The person either chooses to keep moving forward in believing (and looks for evidence) or stalls or turns away. No one but God knows without a doubt when a person is actually saved.

Some will say that they want to believe, but just don't. Everyone starts out that way in some fashion. Believing the truth about God is a gift that God grants. Such people need to ask God to grant them to believe in the truth about him. If it is genuinely true that they want to believe, then they will start doing what God said: be obedient (which includes learning what it means to be obedient). It is not the obedience which saves, but God grants faith in response to our efforts to do what we think God wants rather than what we want (i.e., obedience).

I find more than a few things I respectfully disagree with about your post, but I wanted to address the flip flopping on whether or not a person can know there saved. First you say that a person who has genuinely believed is saved, but wont know he is saved. Then you say that eventually they might know after some time, which really doesn't make any sense at all. You can know your saved, because salvation is not an over complicated issues as the Catholic and Armenians might make it. I'm just going to post this below

John 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine

Not the only verse that exists like this, but there are definitely no verses that say a person doesn't/can't know their saved. However, I do understand that some people have doubts/fears regardless and that can be normal if you fear God.

 

[corinth77777]

If one accepts him as Lord ...then who is he to u? Is He Lord or is He not? If he is Lord sometimes...then shouldn't your salvation be sometimes? If he is Lord all the time, then shouldn't your salvation be all the time. If you make a committment marrying a woman...should you go in it thinking you are not going to be committed?

So what type of marriage is it if one minute you are committed and the next you cheat?

Faith has 2 components...hope and evidence. If you stop having the evidence...how would you know you yourself were saved?
If you stopped working would you think you still were going to get paid. We are no longer a slave to sin but to righteousness.......and if by the way we happened to miss the mark on our journey we have an advocate with the father, Christ Jesus...that will plead our case..by his finished work.....I'm a fan of Dallas Willards work.....he states that the kingdom is at hand...It is not just what happens when you die....We are told to pursue peace for without it you can not see the kingdom....If Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil...Then we seek through the power of the gospel to put away sin in our lives now...we seek to purify ourselves now! For at his coming we do not want to be ashamed....God love is being perfectected in us in that way....so what God will do if you choose to become Lord back over your own life...til death........woe unto the man that knows to do right and doesn't do it. for he shall be beaten with many stripes.

 

[aiki]

It's important to understand our relationship to God as born-again believers in the terms He uses in His word to describe it. We are adopted children (Ro. 8:15, 16), reconciled (Col.1:19-22), redeemed (Col. 1:14; Ga. 3:13), sanctified (1Cor. 6:11), justified (Ac. 13:38, 39) united with Christ in his death and burial, and raised with him in newness of life (Ro. 6:1-11); we are sons and daughters, joint-heirs with Christ (Ro. 8: 17), who may come boldly unto God's throne of grace (He. 4:16); bond-servants of Jesus who are blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 1:3); we are new creations in Christ, old things are passed away, behold all things are become new (2Cor. 5:17). We are not on parole or probation, fearful slaves under the cold, hard hand of a cruel and dangerous master who is waiting for the slightest misstep from us so that He may cast us into Hell. All of the things I have listed above about the believer's identity in Christ are given - not earned - to them by God. It is God who gives us a new nature by His Spirit, He adopts us and we are forever His children. We haven't the power to undo His work, to cast aside what only He could have accomplished. And so, those who claim to have once been His children but are no longer were never truly redeemed, but were only tares, counterfeit believers, those who had "a form of godliness but denied the power thereof" (1Ti. 3:1-9).

Selah.

 

[Hallstone]

After accepting God's sacrifice, his son Jesus the Christ. And from there acquiring salvation from sin and destruction/hell, is it on the condition that you remain faithful to Jesus?

The same God added two trees to the garden, one was difficult to find, and the other was easy, when we understand why He did this, then we understand what the answer to your question is.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

The same God added two trees to the garden, one was difficult to find, and the other was easy, when we understand why He did this, then we understand what the answer to your question is.

Question. Are you being divinely clever and suggesting that you have an illusive answer to the question proposed? If so, please skip the 2000 year old literary rhetoric and tell us what the answer is (parables not required). Also, I may have missed a Sunday school lesson at some point, but where does it say that one of the trees was more difficult to find than the other?

 

[corinth77777]

Blind post. Sorry.

In short, my answer to your question is "No." Salvation is a monergistic work of God in the believer. Paul writes that all of us before we were saved were "dead in trespasses and sins." (Eph. 2:1) As a result, we could not act to save ourselves, to contribute at all to the work of our redemption from sin. God had to reach down to us when we were "enemies in our minds toward God by our wicked works" (Col. 1:21), incapable of understanding or caring about God's gift of salvation, and illuminate our understanding, convict us of our sin, and draw us to Himself. Why is this important to realize? Because it shows us what role the quality of our conduct plays in our being adopted into God's family which is none at all. As Scripture declares,

Titus 3:4-6
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

If our behaviour has no part to play in our being saved, can it have any part to play in our remaining saved? No. Just as our salvation was not our doing, our continuing to be saved, to be an adopted child of God, is not our doing. We are "accepted in the Beloved" (Eph. 1:6) who is Christ on the basis of our acceptance of him as our Saviour and Lord. He clothes us in his perfect righteousness, his faultless righteousness is imputed to us, and this makes us acceptable to God. And just as Christ's righteousness is unchanging in its perfection, our acceptance by God on the basis of that moral perfection is also unchanging. God does not vacillate in His acceptance of us because His acceptance of us has nothing to do with us but with Christ. God is fully satisfied with Christ, fully accepting of Him always, and so, by extension, of us as well.

Can a genuine believer walk away from their adoption into God's family? I think not. Their adoption by God was never their doing. God took the initiative in saving them and He maintains that initiative as their Heavenly Father ever after. No one can undo what He has done in this regard. Our adoption is not ours to reject or refuse. It is God's work which He promises to bring to completion.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Selah.

Titus 3:4-6
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

The question is who is the "us" already referencing.....those who have accepted his gift. God offered up his son to everyone....and He didn't do it because we earned it by our good works...God did it because he loved us.

It's evident in...st john 3;16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but shall have eternal life....who is eternal ?Jesus..where is life? In his son.

The word saved is in the past ...what did he saved them from? Their past sins. And likely sins after they were saved. because if its all sins..what need would their be for confessing sins.
And again who is the "us" those who already accepted him.

Blind post. Sorry.

In short, my answer to your question is "No." Salvation is a monergistic work of God in the believer. Paul writes that all of us before we were saved were "dead in trespasses and sins." (Eph. 2:1) As a result, we could not act to save ourselves, to contribute at all to the work of our redemption from sin. God had to reach down to us when we were "enemies in our minds toward God by our wicked works" (Col. 1:21), incapable of understanding or caring about God's gift of salvation, and illuminate our understanding, convict us of our sin, and draw us to Himself. Why is this important to realize? Because it shows us what role the quality of our conduct plays in our being adopted into God's family which is none at all. As Scripture declares,

Titus 3:4-6
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

If our behaviour has no part to play in our being saved, can it have any part to play in our remaining saved? No. Just as our salvation was not our doing, our continuing to be saved, to be an adopted child of God, is not our doing. We are "accepted in the Beloved" (Eph. 1:6) who is Christ on the basis of our acceptance of him as our Saviour and Lord. He clothes us in his perfect righteousness, his faultless righteousness is imputed to us, and this makes us acceptable to God. And just as Christ's righteousness is unchanging in its perfection, our acceptance by God on the basis of that moral perfection is also unchanging. God does not vacillate in His acceptance of us because His acceptance of us has nothing to do with us but with Christ. God is fully satisfied with Christ, fully accepting of Him always, and so, by extension, of us as well.

Can a genuine believer walk away from their adoption into God's family? I think not. Their adoption by God was never their doing. God took the initiative in saving them and He maintains that initiative as their Heavenly Father ever after. No one can undo what He has done in this regard. Our adoption is not ours to reject or refuse. It is God's work which He promises to bring to completion.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Selah.

Titus 3:4-6
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
The question is who is the "us" already referencing.....those who have accepted his gift. God offered up his son to everyone....and He didn't do it because we earned it by our good works...God did it because he loved us.

It's evident in...st john 3;16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but shall have eternal life....who is eternal ?Jesus..where is life? In his son.

The word saved is in the past ...what did he saved them from? Their past sins. And likely sins after they were saved. because if its all sins..what need would their be for confessing sins.
And again who is the "us" those who already accepted him.
God gave us a new life through Christ's blood and the spirit keeps us renewed as we continue to go on in him(at least that renewal part is my inferrence )God poured out his mercy..his mercy is Christ....point being the "us" is referring to those who are saved...the writer looks back at that time.
Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

One may consider this encouragement to those who remain in him....


1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.
Consider this an encouraging reason to remain in him..

 

[believeume]

The same God added two trees to the garden, one was difficult to find, and the other was easy, when we understand why He did this, then we understand what the answer to your question is.

Well there were more trees planted in the garden, that Adam and Eve could eat.

 

[food4thought]

Hebrews 6:4-6 gets quoted so many times by people who reject true faith in Jesus Christ. When reading the passage it is saying that it would be impossible to renew someone back to repentance if they were to fall away. Meaning that if you believe you can turn away from your salvation or "lose it", than you will never be able to get it back. I think this is just one of about 50 passages that are sorely misused and understood by people who oppose Christ true work on the cross and that is that no work is actually required for salvation. And yes, before someone starts up with the James 2 comments, I do understand that true belief will generate true works, but works is not a requisite for salvation. I also don't view repentance as a work, as it's really nothing more than a mental process or realization of what sin is in our lives and the Holy Spirit does the rest through the starting of the sanctification process, which lasts a life time.

How would you understand the passage? I am truly curious because I would not like to believe that it is possible to leave our salvation.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

How would you understand the passage? I am truly curious because I would not like to believe that it is possible to leave our salvation.

It's not and my post was clearly aimed at those who believe losing your salvation is possible. The verse makes it pretty clear that if it were possible to lose your salvation that you could never be renewed to repentance again, because Christ would be put to an open shame. This happens, because Christ only died once for all and cannot die multiple times to constantly save someone who is constantly losing and regaining their salvation. The entire post screams that I don't believe in losing salvation lol.

 

[samir]

After accepting God's sacrifice, his son Jesus the Christ. And from there acquiring salvation from sin and destruction/hell, is it on the condition that you remain faithful to Jesus

Yes, scripture says salvation is conditional on continued cooperation with God's grace. Only those who remain faithful to the end will be saved.