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Is salvation conditional?
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
re post 320:
To me, that is just too mixed up to reply to here......
as if saying now we can murder.... commit adultery.... stay greeedy.....
(maybe later)....
To me, that is just too mixed up to reply to here......
as if saying now we can murder.... commit adultery.... stay greeedy.....
(maybe later)....
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Well, well......
did anyone see what happened to Ananias and Saphira ?
or
the silver/gold/ idol maker ?
or
the Corinthians ? (when they did not walk in the SPIRIT) (many got sick, and died, if they did not repent)
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
ooopsy....... clerical error ? (as love hopes for the best; honest mistake you made not on purpose)
Better read it again... Shalom !
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Observing a certain ceremony is not a moral law. Moral laws is something that even unbelieving Gentiles are aware of. It is one's conscience in doing what is right in a given situation. Nowhere is the Saturday Sabbath restressed in the New Testament. On the contrary, the New Testament Scriptures say indirectly that it is no longer binding. I already listed the verses (without verse numbers in my recent post on this). You can choose to ignore the verses or you can explain them to me.
...
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
You brought up repentance.
Read the book again, and see how many times they could have repented.
Others repented, and did not drop dead.
Although later many of them were slaughtered like sheep, as YHWH'S WORD and Y'SHUA said they would be.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Laser Beam Theology (i.e. focusing a laser beam on a select few verses while ignoring others) is a classic example of improper exegesis.
Your denial of Sinless Perfectionism or your belief that believers will always sin is simply not true.
1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have CEASED (stopped) from sin.
Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have CRUCIFIED the affections and lusts.
The 144,000 who will live on the Earth in the future will be found without fault before the Throne of God (Revelation 14:4-5).
This means, that if they can be without fault before God, then you can, too.
In fact, Jesus says, he that sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34).
Jesus told TWO people to: "Go and sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11).
In fact, Jesus essentially said to the man he healed that if he were to sin again, a worse thing would come upon him.
David said he hid His Word (i.e. God's Word) within his heart so that he may not sin against Him (Psalm 119:11).
Paul says, "There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).
Paul says, "sin shall not have dominion over you." (Romans 6:14).
John says, "he that sins of the devil." (1 John 3:8).
John also says, "everyone that does evil hates the light. (John 3:20).
....
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DarthNeo
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No, a Christian cannot achieve sinless perfection; that is, on this side of heaven. Though there are Christians who say they do not sin anymore, they are in error. In order to achieve a sinless state of perfection, the Christian's motivations would have to be pure and perfect at all times because God looks at the condition of the heart as well as our actions. Consider the following verses.
Can any Christian say that his heart is perfect and that he never falters? That he never looks upon a woman with impure thoughts? That he loves the Lord God with all of his heart, and that he loves his neighbor as himself, all with a perfect state of mind? The standard is absolute purity. None of us can claim that.
But there are those who say the Bible says we do not sin.
So, a Christian is to struggle against his sin and to see this before God. But we cannot say that every intention of our hearts is always perfect and pure. If it were, we would not need an intercessor before God once we are saved. The idea of sinless perfectionism is an error that is refuted by Scripture.
See, I can post a lot too...grin.
- Matthew 5:28, "but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
- Matthew 22:37, "And He said to him, “‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’"
- Matthew 22:39, "'The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’"
Can any Christian say that his heart is perfect and that he never falters? That he never looks upon a woman with impure thoughts? That he loves the Lord God with all of his heart, and that he loves his neighbor as himself, all with a perfect state of mind? The standard is absolute purity. None of us can claim that.
But there are those who say the Bible says we do not sin.
- 1 John 3:6, "No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him."
- 1 John 3:9, "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
- 1 John 5:18, "We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him."
- 1 John 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
- 1 John 2:1, "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."
So, a Christian is to struggle against his sin and to see this before God. But we cannot say that every intention of our hearts is always perfect and pure. If it were, we would not need an intercessor before God once we are saved. The idea of sinless perfectionism is an error that is refuted by Scripture.
See, I can post a lot too...grin.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
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Most Christians are wrong for believing that Romans 7 is talking about Paul struggling with sin as a Christian. In the bulk of Romans 7, Paul is recounting his experience as a Jew (before he became a Christian) and then concludes at the end of Romans 7 that Jesus is the answer to that struggle. In Romans 7:1, Paul is speaking to Christians (who know the Law of Moses - Which means his audience is primarily Messianic Jews at this point). Paul is referring to his experience as a Pharisee (Before He came to Christ) trying to obey a standard of Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. Paul gives these Christian Jews help in understanding the difference between their old struggle before Christ (as Pharisees) versus the victory they now have in Jesus Christ by walking after the Spirit in Romans 8:1 (in the next chapter).
#1. Paul is repeating a point He made in chapter 5.
For there was no such thing as chapter breaks in the Bible. They were added later. Anyways, to understand chapter 7, you have to know what was going on in chapter 5.
In Romans chapter 5 we learn, "For by one man sin entered the world and by one man many shall be justified."
Now, under the Mosaic Law there was an accounting and those under that Law had to bring their sacrifices accordingly. Prior to the Mosaic law, the Patriarchs offered sacrifices to God, but not as a result of particular sins–not because God said to them if you do such and such sin then you have to offer such and such sacrifices. The sacrifices of the Patriarchs were offered based upon faith, not law. Which explains the context of Romans 5:13.
For sin was no doubt in the world prior to the law and so was transgression, hence there had to be some kind of law. For obviously Paul does not contradict himself here. He says that sin was not accounted until the law came. The point is that there was no law from God to this point that had been codified, that is, placed into written form. Before the Law of Moses, sin was not imputed because there was no written Law to transgress. Then how was sin imputed to those living before the written Law? Well, sin was imputed to those living before the Law because the "death of sin" was passed down to them thru Adam's disobedience (Romans 5:12-19). Those living before the Law, were exclusively justified by faith and those who did not live by faith were condemned. In other words, the Old Testament saint living before the Law was justified by following Romans 8:1. Yes, they did not know who Christ was yet or this passage, but the Spirit of Christ was in fact within the prophets, though (1 Peter 1:10-11).
This point of the Law in Romans 5 is made in Romans chapter 7. Compare Romans 7:8-10 with Romans 5:12-14 and Romans 5:20.
#2. This passage is an answer to the question “Did that which was good [the Law], then, become death to me?” (Romans 7:13) Paul is not primarily interested here in discussing anyone's struggle with sin. He is explaining how the Old Testament Law – good in itself – was used by sin to bring death to pre-Christians.
#3. Paul knows that Christians struggle with sin; after all, many of his letters are written to help churches deal with sin. But he discusses the Christian struggle with sin in the next chapter (Romans 8:10-14). His conclusions about the struggle there do not seem to me to be consistent if chapter 7 is also about the Christian struggle with sin.
#4. Paul’s only positive description of the “me” in this passage is elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians. “I agree with the Law, that the Law is good” (Romans 7:16) and “I delight in the law of God in my inner man” (Romans 7:22). But this is more in line with Paul’s description of Jews: “If you call yourself a Jew and rely on the Law” (Romans 2:17). In Romans, Christians have “died to the Law” (Romans 7:4) and thus “delight in the Law” is not most naturally applied to Christians.
#5. Paul’s negative descriptions of the “me” in the passage are elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians.
“I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin” (Romans 7:14). Compare to “we were in the flesh” (Romans 7:5); “we were freed from sin” (Romans 6:18); “we were slaves to sin” (Romans 6:20); and “you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit” (Romans 8:9).
“But I see another law… making me a prisoner of the law of sin” (Romans 7:23). Compare to “but now, freed from sin and enslaved to God” (Romans 6:22); and “the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death” (Romans 8:2).
If Paul says that Christian are no longer in the flesh and are no longer slaves or prisoners of sin, then it seems to make the most sense to say that he is talking about his pre-Christian experience when he was Jew here in Romans 7:14-24.
Source Used:
http://www.thegoodbookblog.com/2012/apr/27/paul-is-not-talking-about-himself-why-i-take-the-p/
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DarthNeo
Well-Known Member
Most Christians are wrong for believing that Romans 7 is talking about Paul struggling with sin as a Christian. In the bulk of Romans 7, Paul is recounting his experience as a Jew (before he became a Christian) and then concludes at the end of Romans 7 that Jesus is the answer to that struggle. In Romans 7:1, Paul is speaking to Christians (who know the Law of Moses - Which means his audience is primarily Messianic Jews at this point). Paul is referring to his experience as a Pharisee (Before He came to Christ) trying to obey a standard of Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. Paul gives these Christian Jews help in understanding the difference between their old struggle before Christ (as Pharisees) versus the victory they now have in Jesus Christ by walking after the Spirit in Romans 8:1 (in the next chapter).
#1. Paul is repeating a point He made in chapter 5.
For there was no such thing as chapter breaks in the Bible. They were added later. Anyways, to understand chapter 7, you have to know what was going on in chapter 5.
In Romans chapter 5 we learn, "For by one man sin entered the world and by one man many shall be justified."
Now, under the Mosaic Law there was an accounting and those under that Law had to bring their sacrifices accordingly. Prior to the Mosaic law, the Patriarchs offered sacrifices to God, but not as a result of particular sins–not because God said to them if you do such and such sin then you have to offer such and such sacrifices. The sacrifices of the Patriarchs were offered based upon faith, not law. Which explains the context of Romans 5:13.
For sin was no doubt in the world prior to the law and so was transgression, hence there had to be some kind of law. For obviously Paul does not contradict himself here. He says that sin was not accounted until the law came. The point is that there was no law from God to this point that had been codified, that is, placed into written form. Before the Law of Moses, sin was not imputed because there was no written Law to transgress. Then how was sin imputed to those living before the written Law? Well, sin was imputed to those living before the Law because the "death of sin" was passed down to them thru Adam's disobedience (Romans 5:12-19). Those living before the Law, were exclusively justified by faith and those who did not live by faith were condemned. In other words, the Old Testament saint living before the Law was justified by following Romans 8:1. Yes, they did not know who Christ was yet or this passage, but the Spirit of Christ was in fact within the prophets, though (1 Peter 1:10-11).
This point of the Law in Romans 5 is made in Romans chapter 7. Compare Romans 7:8-10 with Romans 5:12-14 and Romans 5:20.
#2. This passage is an answer to the question “Did that which was good [the Law], then, become death to me?” (Romans 7:13) Paul is not primarily interested here in discussing anyone's struggle with sin. He is explaining how the Old Testament Law – good in itself – was used by sin to bring death to pre-Christians.
#3. Paul knows that Christians struggle with sin; after all, many of his letters are written to help churches deal with sin. But he discusses the Christian struggle with sin in the next chapter (Romans 8:10-14). His conclusions about the struggle there do not seem to me to be consistent if chapter 7 is also about the Christian struggle with sin.
#4. Paul’s only positive description of the “me” in this passage is elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians. “I agree with the Law, that the Law is good” (Romans 7:16) and “I delight in the law of God in my inner man” (Romans 7:22). But this is more in line with Paul’s description of Jews: “If you call yourself a Jew and rely on the Law” (Romans 2:17). In Romans, Christians have “died to the Law” (Romans 7:4) and thus “delight in the Law” is not most naturally applied to Christians.
#5. Paul’s negative descriptions of the “me” in the passage are elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians.
“I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin” (Romans 7:14). Compare to “we were in the flesh” (Romans 7:5); “we were freed from sin” (Romans 6:18); “we were slaves to sin” (Romans 6:20); and “you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit” (Romans 8:9).
“But I see another law… making me a prisoner of the law of sin” (Romans 7:23). Compare to “but now, freed from sin and enslaved to God” (Romans 6:22); and “the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death” (Romans 8:2).
If Paul says that Christian are no longer in the flesh and are no longer slaves or prisoners of sin, then it seems to make the most sense to say that he is talking about his pre-Christian experience when he was Jew here in Romans 7:14-24.
Source Used:
http://www.thegoodbookblog.com/2012/apr/27/paul-is-not-talking-about-himself-why-i-take-the-p/
Dude, your theology is of the over-complicated and the PROUD...
Paul was a human, he was not CONTINUOUS IN SIN, just as none of us should be, but he sinned. And I sin...and guess what, you sin too.
Adios...
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Then you are in disagreement with the verses I put forth and you are advocating in doing evil in God's name. But surely we both know God is good and just and perfect in His judgments. So your idea that you think you can sin and still be saved goes against everything that we know about moraliy or the goodness of God. For how can you tell the good guys from the bad guys when you watch a movie, or when you turn on the news or when you go out into the world? It is by what men do that determines if they are good or not. It's what 1 John 3:7 says. For he that does righteousness is righteous (even as He (Jesus) is righteous).
DarkNeo said:
Then the 144,000 were really not found without fault before the throne of God.
And they that are Christ's did not really crucifiy the affections and lusts.
And Jesus must have been lying to two people in the fact that He told them to sin no more.
Did you even read the list of verses I provided? Or are you just throwing them out and disregarding them over a belief that you prefer?
Jesus here was not making idle threats or making a point in how we cannot keep the Law. His point is that we are not to look upon woman in lust or our whole body could be cast into hell fire. That's the point. For the Scriptures say that the fear of the Lord men depart from evil.DarkNeo said:
Right. God is going to tell you to do something that is not possible for you to do with His help. For the Scriptures say with God all things are possible. But you are saying that loving God with all your heart, mind, and soul is impossible.DarkNeo said:
And you think you cannot love your neighbor as yourself?DarkNeo said:
While this may be true on your own power, but with God's power working in your life, this can be reality for you.
Well, that is if you want it.
Also, you are making assumptions with these above verses.
Nowhere does God's Word use these verses so as to make a point that you cannot keep God's Commands.
On the contrary, Jesus said to the richman if you will enter into life, keep the Commandments.
Who am I going to believe? You or Jesus? I choose Jesus.
Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments.
Yet, you are saying this is not the case?
DarkNeo said:
You are quoting a verse that refutes yourself. God's Word says here to be ye holy as He is holy. Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.
DarkNeo said:
Apparently you have never read about the 144,000 in Revelation 14:3-5.
And if they can be without fault before the throne of God, then so can you.
But my guess is you really do not want that, though; Hence, why you believe as you do.
DarkNeo said:
This is just being double minded with Scripture. 1 John 1:8 is not a declaration that all believers will live in sin in some way. That is insanity. 1 John 2:4 says he that says He knows Him and does not keep His Commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the faithful saints against those false believers who were trying to seduce them (1 John 2:26). This warning is saying the same thing that 1 John 2:4 is saying. It is denying sin on some level and claiming you are spiritually fine with God. It is saying if one says that sin does not exist for them on some level. For example: Christian Scientists believe sin is an illusion. So 1 John 1:8 would apply to them. 1 John 1:8 would also apply to the Eternal Security Proponent. For they believe they can sin physically but that they cannot sin spiritually because all future sin is forgiven them. But such a concept or belief is a doctrine of immorality and it does not uphold God's goodness or morality. The solution to taking care of sin is 1 John 1:9 (which is the very next verse). But even you do not believe that such a thing is necessary.
DarkNeo said:
The devil can quote Scripture. That does not mean the devil is on the side of the truth.
The key here is to explain the verses that I put forth and not to post other verses that do not directly say anything about a how we cannot live perfectly before God. In fact, Jesus says for us to be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. Have you ever did a brief study on the word "perfect" before?
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Uh huh. Doing good is complicated? It is proud to do the right thing and then give glory to God for it?
DarkNeo said:
You might be able to twist Paul's words that he struggled with sin as a Christian (Which is not true). But you cannot twist the word of God on the 144,000. They were found without fault before the throne of God (See Revelation 14:3-5). Also, advocating that it is okay to sin again in the future (even just a little bit) is no different than living in sin all the time. For it would be having an agreement with evil or sin. Can God agree with sin? Are we not to have the mind of Christ?
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