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Is salvation conditional?

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corinth77777

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To continue with m
The question was..is salvation conditional.

And my answer...is dependent upon the meaning of salvation and eternal life.....and upon understanding faith and works..in their context

And my answer would be yes...If you look at the old testament stories...people were saved based on Obedience..Joshua and Caleb.., the Red sea upon obeying Moses's words from God....
And so.......looking at how we are saved through washing and regeneration....(this is where I am on it right now in reguards to my studying Willard's work)
One I learned there are 2 types of faith..
The faith of Jesus.....and faith in Jesus
I also learned that there are 2 types of life ..quality of life...and the age of life.
I undrerstand that Eternal life.....in the bible is defined as knowing God and Jesus......and I know you cannot know him...according to Him unless you obey him.....1 john....
I learned that there are works to Earn salvation......and there are works of obedience....
And I'm still studying...these...and now when I come across passages...I need to know which one the scripture is referring to in context...

With those things in mind....yes Salvation is conditional upon our obedience....but to speak of salvation on earth....would it mean the quality of life...??
Point being if we remain in him we will find out ...

Salvation...yes, in my understanding is a condition of being obedient....and comes by intending to act upon what we believe....
For faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things unseen......faith...going when not knowing.....etc...
To continue with this study
We find the meaning from faith to faith.
Its being in Christ whose faith stood the test. Since in him...we then continue in him until the end and his faith saves us......so it is Jesus who is from faith to faith....and being in him we take on that phrase imputed righteousness...not of what we have done but all....on what he has done...
So in him lies the quality of life...peace joy...yez yez...making sense to me...
He is our life...[quality of life] in this present world....
 
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DarthNeo

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Salvation has ONE condition, repentance. And repentance is NOT being sorry for your sins, it's "changing your mind" about who Jesus Christ is. Once you change your mind to understand you are a sinner, once you change you mind to believe Jesus is the Son of God, once you change your mind and believe He lived a sinless life, once you change your mind and believe that he died on the cross to pay for every sin (past, present, future), once you change your mind and believe that Jesus was resurrected and defeated sin and death, once you change your mind and believe that the only way to go to heaven is through believing/accepting Christ as your savior (i.e. FAITH), then you are SAVED from that moment you first believe, throughout eternity!

Ephesians 1:13-14 says, " In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were SEALED in Him with the Holy Spirit OF PROMISE, 14 who is given as a PLEDGE of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory." The Holy Spirit is a SEAL, a PROMISE, and a PLEDGE of our salvation and eternal security!
 
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believeume

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Salvation has ONE condition, repentance. And repentance is NOT being sorry for your sins, it's "changing your mind" about who Jesus Christ is. Once you change your mind to understand you are a sinner, once you change you mind to believe Jesus is the Son of God, once you change your mind and believe He lived a sinless life, once you change your mind and believe that he died on the cross to pay for every sin (past, present, future), once you change your mind and believe that Jesus was resurrected and defeated sin and death, once you change your mind and believe that the only way to go to heaven is through believing/accepting Christ as your savior (i.e. FAITH), then you are SAVED from that moment you first believe, throughout eternity!

Ephesians 1:13-14 says, " In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were SEALED in Him with the Holy Spirit OF PROMISE, 14 who is given as a PLEDGE of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory." The Holy Spirit is a SEAL, a PROMISE, and a PLEDGE of our salvation and eternal security!
It's not looking so well.
 
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stephen583

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yes Salvation is conditional upon our obedience....

I agree. Obedience + Repentance

Obedience to the commandments of God is essential. Repentance is also essential. God knows no one can keep the commandments perfectly, everyone falls short. However, everyone is expected to acknowledge their failure and repent. The failure to acknowledge it when we are convicted by the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is an unpardonable sin according to Scripture, (Matthew 12:31, Mark 3:29). God does not forgive willful and defiant disobedience of His Commandments.

This is the important message found in the story of Ananias in Acts 5:3. Ananias tried to conceal his act of secretly stashing back some coin, just incase the Christianity thing didn't work out. Ananias and his wife were both given the opportunity to confess and repent, but neither of them chose to do that. Instead, they defiantly chose to cling to their subterfuge and insurance policy, and they were both instantly struck dead for lying to God and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

How many of us have invested in an insurance policy like Ananias, just incase the Christianity thing doesn't work out ? How much coin have you stolen ? What lies have you told to prevail and prosper over those you judged to be evil ? What of your neighbors possessions have you coveted, believing them to be rightfully yours ? We all have fallen short of the glory of God.

Which of the Ten Commandments have you broken, which you won't acknowledge as sin and for which you feel you have no reason to repent ? What bag of coin have you secretly stashed back like Ananias did, just incase the Christianity thing isn't real ? When you sin and you refuse to acknowledge it, or repent.. You are betting against God's actually existence. Think about that long and hard.

Salvation is absolutely conditional. ACKNOWLEDGE your SIN and REPENT. Don't make the same mistake Ananias made.
 
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DarthNeo

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There is also another condition other than obedience to the commandments of God. God knows no one can keep the commandments perfectly, everyone falls short. However, everyone is expected to acknowledge their failure and repent. The failure to acknowledge it when we are convicted by the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is an unpardonable sin according to Scripture. God doesn't forgive willful and defiant disobedience of His Commandments.

This is the important message contained in the story of Ananias in Acts 5:3. Ananias tried to conceal his act of secretly stashing back some coin, just incase the Christianity thing didn't work out. Ananias and his wife were both given the opportunity to confess and repent, but neither of them chose to do that. Instead, they defiantly chose to cling to their subterfuge and insurance policy, and they were both instantly struck dead for lying to God and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

How many of us have invested in an insurance policy like Ananias, just incase the Christianity thing doesn't work out ? How much coin have you stolen ? What lies have you told to prevail and prosper against those you judged to be evil ? What of your neighbors possessions have you coveted, believing them to be rightfully yours ?

Which of the Ten Commandments have you broken, which you won't acknowledge as sin and for which you feel you have no reason to repent ? What bag of coin have you secretly stashed back like Ananias did, just incase the Christianity thing isn't real ? Think about it long and hard.

Salvation is absolutely conditional. ACKNOWLEDGE your SIN and REPENT. Don't make the same mistake Ananias made.

Salvation is conditional on ONE thing, FAITH IN CHRIST, period, the end. Faith + NOTHING ELSE = Salvation.

Romans 10:9
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 
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JacksBratt

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It's not looking so well.
You keep insinuating that it is too late for you, "not looking so well", "completely cut off".

Are you breathing, heart beating, you have a sound mind? If so, then you have all the ability, in the universe, for salvation. It is up to you, your choice.
 
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Salvation has ONE condition, repentance. And repentance is NOT being sorry for your sins, it's "changing your mind" about who Jesus Christ is. Once you change your mind to understand you are a sinner, once you change you mind to believe Jesus is the Son of God, once you change your mind and believe He lived a sinless life, once you change your mind and believe that he died on the cross to pay for every sin (past, present, future), once you change your mind and believe that Jesus was resurrected and defeated sin and death, once you change your mind and believe that the only way to go to heaven is through believing/accepting Christ as your savior (i.e. FAITH), then you are SAVED from that moment you first believe, throughout eternity!

Well, I don't know which Bible you are reading, but that is certainly not true.

Repentance involves a Godly Sorrow:

2 Corinthians 7:10 says, "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death"
We even see in the "Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee" that the tax collector was more justified than the pharisee because he cried out to God to have mercy on him for his sins (Luke 18:9-14).

A. Repentance Part 1:
Calling out to God for forgiveness (or the Sinner's Prayer):


The word "repent" can be used in Scripture so as to mean a prayer unto God for the forgiveness of a specific transgression (with that person intending to turn away from their evil). For Peter told Simon the Sorcerer to repent of his wickedness by way of prayer (Acts 8:22).

In other words, the word "repent" is just another way of saying the "Sinner's Prayer."

What is the "Sinner's Prayer"? Well, the "Sinner's Prayer" is a prayer towards God admitting that you are a sinner who is in need of His forgiveness and or salvation. While the Sinner's Prayer applies to both the new believer (who comes to the faith for the first time) and or the seasoned believer (who may stumble on occasion), here are verses that just support the Sinner's Prayer for the new believer.

#1. Romans 10:13 (cross reference with Joel 2:12-13 and Joel 2:32).

#2. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#3. Luke 18:9-14 (it is not said whether the Tax Collector is a new convert or a seasoned believer). The point of the parable is that the Tax Collector was "humble."; And we know Scripture says elsewhere that, "God gives grace to the humble." (James 4:6).

#4. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"​

Side Note 1:
Oh, and as for the seasoned believer and the Sinner's Prayer:
Well, John tells believers to confess their sins so as to be forgiven of their sin - 1 John 1:9.

Side Note 2:
Please also take note that I believe in rare cases a person can be initially saved by merely believing Jesus Christ as their Savior (John 1:12-13). However, I believe that in time, if the believer has the capacity to do so, they will come to accept those verses in the Bible that teaches them that they will also call upon the Lord to save them from their sinful condition. In other words, it is sort of like the topic of the Trinity (Which is a true teaching in the Bible). A person does not need to know about the Trinity in order to be initially saved. But in time, when they come to later learn of the Trinity, they cannot reject such a truth (after it is was revealed to them), otherwise they would be denying the very God as described in the Holy Scriptures. However, most people are aware "repentance" in the plan of salvation, so most people are without excuse when it comes to "repentance."

B. Repentance Part 2:
Turning Away From Your Sin (i.e. A Life That Shows That You Have Been Born Again Spiritually):

Also, the word "repent" also includes turning away from sin (In addition to a prayer of forgivness towards God, too). For Jesus says that the Ninevites will rise up against this generation because they did not repent at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). If you were to look at John 3:6-10 we would see that the Ninevite King had told the people to both:

(a) Cry out to God.
(b) Turn away from their wicked ways.​

Then when God noticed that the Ninevites had turned from their evil ways, the LORD had then turned away from the destruction He was going to bring upon them.

In fact, a believer is to examine themselves on whether or not Christ lives within them unless they be reprobate (2 Corinthians 13:5). How can we have an assurance of knowing Christ? Well, 1 John 2:3 says, we can have an assurance in knowing Him if we find that we are keeping His Commandments (i.e. the Commands in the New Testament and not the Old Testament - For even the moral laws have changed because they are no longer attached with death penalties; And Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.).

For true repentance is always followed by right action. We see this in the "Parable of the Two Sons." (Matthew 21:28-32). For the son who did the will of the father was the son who had repented and then went out and did what his father told him to do. In the "Parable of the Prodigal Son", when the son returned home, the father said to his son that he was dead and now he is alive again. This is speaking in spiritual terms. The son was dead spiritually when he went prodigal and he became alive again spiritually when he came home to his father and was willing to confess his sin to his father and before heaven and was willing to be a hired hand for his father (Luke 15:11-32).

DarthNeo said:
Ephesians 1:13-14 says, " In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were SEALED in Him with the Holy Spirit OF PROMISE, 14 who is given as a PLEDGE of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory." The Spirit is a SEAL, a PROMISE, and a PLEDGE of our salvation and eternal security!

Belief also implies doing what Jesus says. Remember what Jesus said to Peter when he couldn't walk on the water? Jesus said that Peter had little faith and that he shouldn't have doubted (Matthew 14:21). So belief or faith is tied with action. For Jesus says, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? (Luke 6:46).

In other words, if a person truly trusts Jesus their belief in Him will help them to walk and do the work that He requires of them.
For this is what 1 Timothy 4:10 says. "Trust." It also says we labor because we "trust" in the living God, too. The two go hand in hand. Labor and trust. Belief and action. Let me give you a real world example:

If God told Rick to sit in his old porch chair that he knew from before was a weak chair and it would easily break under his weight and yet God told Rick to sit in the chair and to not worry what was going to happen, and yet he refused to do so, would Rick be trusting in God? Surely not.

This is why Jesus says if you love me, keep my Commandments (John 14:15).
Jesus says we are his friends if we keep his Commandments (John 15:14).

Do you think people who do not love Jesus and who are not his friends will enter the Kingdom of God? Surely not.

But what about Ephesians 1:13-14?

John 6:27 says,

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Did you catch that?

Those who LABOR for the meat that endures unto everlasting life which is by the gifting and power of Jesus Christ is in whom God the Father has sealed. So we are to LABOR for the food that endures unto everlasting life (Which is a part of our gift in Jesus Christ) in order to have God's seal. If one is not LABORING in this way (they are not truly believing God by doing what He says), and they do no have His seal.



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But what about salvation being a free gift?
It is a free gift.
But the gift is a person named Jesus Christ.
For he that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).

For people can be considered as gifts in our lives, too. A wife could be considered as a gift from God and we know anyone who is unfaithful to their wife can take the risk of losing their wife if they continue to remain unfaithful (Which is true with God, too; See - Deuteronomy 31:6 cf. Deuteronomy 31:16-17). The point is that these things are real and can happen in the real world. I say this because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth using real world examples (parables), too (In fact, even the Canaanite woman had expounded upon Jesus's parable with a continued parable of her own - see Matthew 15:27). For in the most popular versions of OSAS or Eternal Security (and not all versions) such a belief cannot be made into a real world example because one has to ignore morality or God's goodness on some level in order to make it work. Folks who do evil (whether it be a lot of sin or just one or two sins) while having a mental loving picture of the Lord in their minds are going to heaven and folks who trust in their Lord as their Savior and focus on doing good for their Lord are going to be destroyed by fire. Up is down and down is up. Good is evil and evil is good.

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he [Christ] is righteous" (1 John 3:7).

And Isaiah 5:20 says, "Woe unto them that .... put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"


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stephen583

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Well, I don't know which Bible you are reading, but that is certainly not true.

I don't see where any scriptural evidence you referenced in post #289 contradicts what I've said about salvation being conditional on the acknowledgement of sin and repentance. In fact, what you posted actually supports my position.
 
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stephen583

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Salvation is conditional on ONE thing, FAITH IN CHRIST, period, the end. Faith + NOTHING ELSE = Salvation.

Romans 10:9
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

You are trying to sell a half truth, based on your own misinterpretation of Scripture. No context = gibberish.

Having faith in Christ means believing what Jesus actually testified to in the Gospel.

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.. The one who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him" (John 14:15-23).

"If you love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter (The Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Truth, John 16:13), that he may abide with you" (John 14:15-31).

No one can willfully and unrepentantly violate the commandments of God and make the claim at that same time they believe in and have faith in Jesus, without committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Which is exactly what Ananias did (Acts 5:3), he violated the commandment, "Thou shalt not Lie" and did not repent.
 
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stephen583

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Well, just saying that doesn't make it so. You need to prove it with the text itself.

You just did. All I would be doing, is re-posting what you already posted in #289. It would be redundant. I already directed CF members to go back and re-read post #289 and decide for themselves.
 
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You just did. All I would be doing, is re-posting what you already posted in #289. It would be redundant. I already directed CF members to go back and re-read post #289 and decide for themselves.

So you are saying that Salvation is Conditional? If that is the case, then I would agree with you.

For most of the time, I encounter resistance in these kinds of debates. So my apologies if I misunderstood you.


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stephen583

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There is no more such thing as "Unconditional Salvation" in Christianity, than there is a doctrine called "Prosperity Christianity", or "Once Saved, Always Saved Christianity", "Militant Christianity", or any of the other false antichrist doctrines imagined by man (2 Timothy 4:3).
 
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There is no more such thing as "Unconditional Salvation" in Christianity, than there is a doctrine called "Prosperity Christianity", or "Once Saved, Always Saved Christianity", "Militant Christianity", or any of the other false antichrist doctrines imagined by man (2 Timothy 4:3).

I agree.

Side Note:

I also deleted my one post that was in reply to you. Sorry for the misunderstanding. In my post on repentance in reply to "DarthNeo", I was trying to show him that repentance is not simply a change of mind; It is a prayer of forgiveness towards God involving a person turning away from their sin as a result in having a Godly sorrow.


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Deer

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So you believe in OSAS? Would you consider it unfair for a person, say, the robber on the cross with Jesus to go to heaven despite the lifetime of grave sin, whereas a truly good person, kind and caring who rejected Christ or never heard of Him, going to hell? Just your opinion.
I would say that is completely fair. The Bible makes it clear that God is just, and it wouldn't be just to reward one who rejected Christ with Salvation. Romans 1:20, "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." makes it clear that even those who haven't heard the name Jesus have no excuse. The thief had faith, but could do no good works in his position. Despite the lack of works, he still received salvation.
 
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I would say that is completely fair. The Bible makes it clear that God is just, and it wouldn't be just to reward one who rejected Christ with Salvation. Romans 1:20, "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." makes it clear that even those who haven't heard the name Jesus have no excuse. The thief had faith, but could do no good works in his position. Despite the lack of works, he still received salvation.

Obviously not every person's case is the same. I also believe the thief was saved without any works done later to prove his faith. Babies who die are also saved. In these cases, we have to understand that God is sovereign and in control of life and death and in knowing every person's destiny. So those who accept Jesus on their death beds are individuals in whom God knows will be faithful towards His Kingdom.

But as for God allowing believers (who lived out their faith) who are wicked and or who are lazy into His Kingdom:

Why on Earth would God allow somebody into Heaven or into His Kingdom who was rebellious? It wouldnt' make any sense. The fact, that a person chooses to NOT be sinful now proves that they will still be that way when they are in God's Kingdom. God does not force change a person later on. If that was the case, then God would just save everyone then. The Scriptures say cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The Bible says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.


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