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Is Racism a Sin?

Invalidusername

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Fortunately, I don't have a pastor. I will never again have a pastor. The teachings of Jesus are sufficient for me.

With that said, the passage from Romans you quote above is just a snippet out of a two chapter list of instructions from Paul. When one reads it in context of chapters 12 and 13, one quickly discovers that one's obligation to God is also required of the Christian.

The pastors who call out the racism of the President do submit to the government. The pastors who protest in the halls of Congress do submit to the government. As yet I've not seen any pastor protesting the evil of government resist arrest or punishment for their behavior. In that regard they follow Jesus' teachings and the example from His life as He was arrested, tried and convicted by the secular government of His time.

Within the context of Paul's teaching in those two chapters, the life and teachings of Jesus, and even the examples of the Old Testament prophets who spoke out against the leaders of Israel, it is obvious you are attempting to use this passage incorrectly as a method of whitewashing evil in an attempt to lead Followers astray and convince them to embrace evil as acceptable when government commits it.

[Edit] And Paul's own life of being arrested and placed in prison shows that even Paul understood there were limits to what one should endure from government.

I suggest you do some research on the government in Paul's time. Not only were they racists but the emperor of Rome was a pedophile and murdered and raped many little boys. He also had giant sex orgies in his palace and was anti-christian in multiple forms. But yet Paul commanded people to submit to him and that is also a commandment from God.

Trump is NOTHING compared to the leaders in Rome the time. I'm often surprised at how people aren't more aware of how evil Rome was.
 
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Invalidusername

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More information on the Emperor of Rome can be found here:

Suetonius • Life of Tiberius

I will quote directly from the article.

43 1 On retiring to Capri he devised a pleasance for his secret orgies: teams of wantons of both sexes, selected as experts in deviant intercourse and dubbed analists, copulated before him in triple unions to excite his flagging passions. 2 Its bedrooms were furnished with the most salacious paintings and p355 sculptures, as well as with an erotic library, in case a performer should need an illustration of what was required. Then in Capri's woods and groves he arranged a number of nooks of venery where boys and girls got up as Pans and nymphs solicited outside bowers and grottoes: people openly called this "the old goat's garden," punning on the island's name.

44 1 He acquired a reputation for still grosser depravities that one can hardly bear to tell or be told, let alone believe. For example, he trained little boys (whom he termed tiddlers) to crawl between his thighs when he went swimming and tease him with their licks and nibbles; and unweaned babies he would put to his organ as though to the breast, being by both nature and age rather fond of this form of satisfaction. 2 Left a painting of Parrhasius's depicting Atalanta pleasuring Meleager with her lips on condition that if the theme displeased him he was to have a million sesterces instead, he chose to keep it and actually hung it in his bedroom. The story is also told that once at a sacrifice, attracted by the acolyte's beauty, he lost control of himself and, hardly waiting for the ceremony to end, rushed him off and debauched him and his brother, the flute-player, too; and subsequently, when they complained of the assault, he had their legs broken.

45 1 How grossly he was in the habit of abusing women even of high birth is very clearly shown by the death of a certain Mallonia. When she was brought to his bed and refused most vigorously to submit to his lust, he turned her p357 over to the informers, and even when she was on trial he did not cease to call out and ask her "whether she was sorry"; so that finally she left the court and went home, where she stabbed herself, openly upbraiding the ugly old man for his obscenity. Hence a stigma put upon him at the next plays in an Atellan farce was received with great applause and became current, that "the old goat was licking the does."
 
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zephcom

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I suggest you do some research on the government in Paul's time. Not only were they racists but the emperor of Rome was a pedophile and murdered and raped many little boys. He also had giant sex orgies in his palace and was anti-christian in multiple forms. But yet Paul commanded people to submit to him and that is also a commandment from God.

Trump is NOTHING compared to the leaders in Rome the time. I'm often surprised at how people aren't more aware of how evil Rome was.

I see you appear to have conceded my points and moved on to the relative playground of how much evil is acceptable to God. when committed by government.
 
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Invalidusername

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I see you appear to have conceded my points and moved on to the relative playground of how much evil is acceptable to God. when committed by government.

There are no points to concede. I do not believe Trump is racist and I voted for him and I will vote for him again.

However it is irrelevant whether Trump is a racist or a womanizer. It is not our job to judge those outside of the church. God will judge him when his time is up. Not us.

We only judge those inside the church not those outside.

God commands us to submit to government. Paul and Jesus commanded people to submit to Tiberius who was MUCH worse than Trump. You seem unwilling to concede that point.
 
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zephcom

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There is no "This ruler is bad so I'm not going to submit to him" in the Bible.
There is, however, the Teachings of Jesus about how one lives one's life. No one is saying Christians should overthrow a government.

But they do have an obligation from Jesus to lift up the oppressed, help the down troddened, speak out for those who can't speak out, etc. And, while fulfilling Jesus' teachings, they run afoul of the law, they are to submit to the law's requirements even if it means being executed.

Using the passage in Romans as an excuse to not confront evil in a Christ-like manner is condoning evil itself.

Edmund Burke said it rather succinctly: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

For pastors of the religion which presumes to worship Jesus as God to do nothing in the face of evil makes a lie out of the message Jesus taught.
 
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zephcom

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There are no points to concede. I do not believe Trump is racist and I voted for him and I will vote for him again.

However it is irrelevant whether Trump is a racist or a womanizer. It is not our job to judge those outside of the church. God will judge him when his time is up. Not us.

We only judge those inside the church not those outside.

God commands us to submit to government. Paul and Jesus commanded people to submit to Tiberius who was MUCH worse than Trump. You seem unwilling to concede that point.

Actually, that was just Paul's teaching. And remember, both Jesus and Paul were executed for NOT submitting to the government.

Evil is evil no matter how much white paint one puts on it.
 
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Invalidusername

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There is, however, the Teachings of Jesus about how one lives one's life. No one is saying Christians should overthrow a government.

But they do have an obligation from Jesus to lift up the oppressed, help the down troddened, speak out for those who can't speak out, etc. And, while fulfilling Jesus' teachings, they run afoul of the law, they are to submit to the law's requirements even if it means being executed.

Using the passage in Romans as an excuse to not confront evil in a Christ-like manner is condoning evil itself.

Edmund Burke said it rather succinctly: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

For pastors of the religion which presumes to worship Jesus as God to do nothing in the face of evil makes a lie out of the message Jesus taught.

The problem is you are talking about doing a public outcry from the church to Trump's behavior. This is completely unbiblical because as Christians we have ZERO authority over the world. What Trump does as a ruler is not to be under our "seal of approval". Trump is of the world and thus he belongs to the world. The world is under God's wrath.

We are to help those around us, yes. But we are not to judge those outside of the church. That's just completely unbiblical. We preach Jesus and repentance. That's it.
 
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Invalidusername

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Actually, that was just Paul's teaching. And remember, both Jesus and Paul were executed for NOT submitting to the government.

Evil is evil no matter how much white paint one puts on it.

Matthew 22:21 Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." Romans 13:1 "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God."
 
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zephcom

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The problem is you are talking about doing a public outcry from the church to Trump's behavior. This is completely unbiblical because as Christians we have ZERO authority over the world. What Trump does as a ruler is not to be under our "seal of approval". Trump is of the world and thus he belongs to the world. The world is under God's wrath.

We are to help those around us, yes. But we are not to judge those outside of the church. That's just completely unbiblical. We preach Jesus and repentance. That's it.

<chuckle> Claiming Christians have ZERO authority over the world is totally bogus given the hard campaigning Christians do to use the laws of the land to promote their agenda about abortion, personal rights, marriage, etc.

In the words of American Indians, you speak with forked tongue.

The Republican party has hijacked a large segment of Christianity in there 'get out the vote' campaign. CHRISTIANS are large reason why Trump is even president.

And now when evil is being committed you want to retire from all responsibility.

Poppycock.

This is EXACTLY why I will never allow myself to be called a Christian.

I give you the last word, I have to leave for the day.
 
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Kaon

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This pastor says that it is. And he calls out church leaders to label it as a sin.

Who Will Call Out the President's Racism?

Should national leaders be called out on their sins even if they are believed to support 'Christianity'? Or should only only national leaders who are believed to not support Christianity be called out on their sins?

Should the party who called out Bill Clinton for marital infidelity also call out Donald Trump for racism?? Within the realm of morals and ethics is there any reason why anyone should believe Christians have either morals or ethics?

Racism is ignorant at best, because the persons being racist have the audacity to believe their rotting flesh bodies that die are better than the next rotting flesh body that dies. It is a psychosis deception to use a lie for profit - which is what racists do (use racism to further themselves and exploit a system).

Christians messed up their moral and ethical high ground when they indulged in racism via imperialism and holy wars to further the faith - even leading directly to the Columbian racism that bore America itself.

Anyone looking at Israel by race (read: skin color) is highly misinformed. Ironically, generations are important to the Most High God, but skin type is the most minute aspect of the generation. We, like the humans we will always be, took something good meant for the Most High God, and we exploited it for our own benefit. We still do.

So, was the OP a serious question? Do you think the Most High God approves of any ignorant meat sacks proclaiming they are better than the other when we are all sinners and degenerate under Him?
 
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Invalidusername

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<chuckle> Claiming Christians have ZERO authority over the world is totally bogus given the hard campaigning Christians do to use the laws of the land to promote their agenda about abortion, personal rights, marriage, etc.

In the words of American Indians, you speak with forked tongue.

The Republican party has hijacked a large segment of Christianity in there 'get out the vote' campaign. CHRISTIANS are large reason why Trump is even president.

And now when evil is being committed you want to retire from all responsibility.

Poppycock.

This is EXACTLY why I will never allow myself to be called a Christian.

I give you the last word, I have to leave for the day.

And that is WRONG. I don't agree with Christians campaigning and being political. We have no place in that world.

And this is more of "the world entered and hijacked the church" rather than "the church is republican! wah!"

Plus even if Trump was actually racist(which he isn't), you have no idea how severe of a sin racism is in God's eyes. There are absolutely no verses that talk about racism. It's a cultural term and a cultural idea.
 
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Kaon

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Matthew 22:21 Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." Romans 13:1 "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God."

The Image of the Most High God was not suggesting we sumbit to Caesar at all. Since this plane of existence is not our home, we are visitors; do you expect a visitor of another country to spit in the face of the governer?

On the other hand, do you expect a visitor who is a "holy person" to renege on his/her spiritual foundation for anyone that is not his/her Creator/Master? This has been used to exploit Christians for centuries: that the Redeemer demanded we submit to authority. Paul first said this; Christ merely gave us the framework on how to behave in nations on this earth.

Follow the rules of a nation until it conflicts with the Most High God's commandments. You have to know His commandments, though.
 
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Invalidusername

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The Image of the Most High God was not suggesting we sumbit to Caesar at all. Since this plane of existence is not our home, we are visitors; do you expect a visitor of another country to spit in the face of the governer?

On the other hand, do you expect a visitor who is a "holy person" to renege on his/her spiritual foundation for anyone that is not his/her Creator/Master? This has been used to exploit Christians for centuries: that the Redeemer demanded we submit to authority. Paul first said this; Christ merely gave us the framework on how to behave in nations on this earth.

Follow the rules of a nation until it conflicts with the Most High God's commandments. You have to know His commandments, though.

And when has Trump commanded any Christian to do something that conflicts with God's commandment?

And of course, if a leader is telling you to go against God then you disobey the leader. We are not talking about that kind of scenario so that is an irrelevant point that you brought up.
 
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Kaon

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And when has Trump commanded any Christian to do something that conflicts with God's commandment?

Who said anything about Trump? I am talking about ANY figurehead leader of a nation when regarding who to follow: the Most High God comes before every entity.

And of course, if a leader is telling you to go against God then you disobey the leader. [/quote]

How would any Christian know what is disobeying the Most High God when the "old testament" is thrown out, and there is a general ignorance of the law of the Most High God. This is why to date the Church is obliterated - existing as ephemeral in spirituality, and consistent in idolatry.

We are not talking about that kind of scenario so that is an irrelevant point that you brought up.


The point is you may not even realize you nurture the scenario right now - because we have ignored so much about the Church history on other people in the world, and our continuance of it is what will destroy the Church. Or, at the very least allow it to be infiltrated by devils (as usual). If you don't know how Manifest Destiny is Christian mythological exploitation of natives through divine rhetoric, you will not understand how the entire entity of Columbia has been built on this. If you don't know how the Crown and Church were a unified ruling entity of Europe, you may not see how holy wars and imperialism is paramount to using religion to exploit racism.
 
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Invalidusername

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Who said anything about Trump? I am talking about ANY figurehead leader of a nation when regarding who to follow: the Most High God comes before every entity.

And of course, if a leader is telling you to go against God then you disobey the leader.

How would any Christian know what is disobeying the Most High God when the "old testament" is thrown out, and there is a general ignorance of the law of the Most High God. This is why to date the Church is obliterated - existing as ephemeral in spirituality, and consistent in idolatry.




The point is you may not even realize you nurture the scenario right now - because we have ignored so much about the Church history on other people in the world, and our continuance of it is what will destroy the Church. Or, at the very least allow it to be infiltrated by devils (as usual). If you don't know how Manifest Destiny is Christian mythological exploitation of natives through divine rhetoric, you will not understand how the entire entity of Columbia has been built on this. If you don't know how the Crown and Church were a unified ruling entity of Europe, you may not see how holy wars and imperialism is paramount to using religion to exploit racism.

No Christian has perfect obedience but we must try our best.

If we don't realize something then hopefully the Holy Spirit will convict us of that and we will learn. I think you are getting a bit too dramatic here. But yes Satan always corrupts Christianity whenever he can. This is why I told the other person to not judge those outside of the church because all it does is involve the world in the church's matters.

There will always be those who use religion as a tool. The Bible has some very strong condemnation for those individuals. However Trump is not really utilizing religion so he isn't really a good example for this. He does pander towards Christians but I don't think he's ever claimed to be one.

And like I said... There is no perfect obedience or otherwise we would be in heaven right now.
 
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SkyWriting

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Fortunately, I don't have a pastor. I will never again have a pastor. The teachings of Jesus are sufficient for me.

With that said, the passage from Romans you quote above is just a snippet out of a two chapter list of instructions from Paul. When one reads it in context of chapters 12 and 13, one quickly discovers that one's obligation to God is also required of the Christian.

The pastors who call out the racism of the President do submit to the government. The pastors who protest in the halls of Congress do submit to the government. As yet I've not seen any pastor protesting the evil of government resist arrest or punishment for their behavior. In that regard they follow Jesus' teachings and the example from His life as He was arrested, tried and convicted by the secular government of His time.

Within the context of Paul's teaching in those two chapters, the life and teachings of Jesus, and even the examples of the Old Testament prophets who spoke out against the leaders of Israel, it is obvious you are attempting to use this passage incorrectly as a method of whitewashing evil in an attempt to lead Followers astray and convince them to embrace evil as acceptable when government commits it.

[Edit] And Paul's own life of being arrested and placed in prison shows that even Paul understood there were limits to what one should endure from government.

No limits are mentioned. Only imagined by preachers.
Romans 13

What about the crucifiction? Are you objecting to Jesus subjecting Himself to that?
 
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SkyWriting

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No Christian has perfect obedience but we must try our best.


yoda-do-or-do-not.jpg
 
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Kaon

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No Christian has perfect obedience but we must try our best.

Part of the implication of this thread is that we don't, actual, try our best: we do what we want to do to get what we want. Why else would there be racism when the Most High God has specific rules on how to treat "strangers". You can tell the quality of a nation based on how they treat their "lowest" citizens; you can't tell me "we" as humans "try our best" when we have starvation and obesity at the same time, people who can't afford four walls living in the same nation as people who own entire small towns of land. We aren't trying at all; we are repeating what we have always done.

If we don't realize something then hopefully the Holy Spirit will convict us of that and we will learn. I think you are getting a bit too dramatic here. But yes Satan always corrupts Christianity whenever he can. This is why I told the other person to not judge those outside of the church because all it does is involve the world in the church's matters.

Do you think the Most High God would consider it dramatic? Our ignorance is what has us in this position; we keep saying it isn't as bad as someone says it is until we reach the critical point - and then we want to run frantic and beg the Most High God to fix things. That is what children do, no? We aren't trying to understand our enemy, we debase the Law of God into precepts that we are comfortable with, and then we wonder why the world is going to literal hell (if our ignorance will even allow us to see our degeneracy)? The perpetuation of this claptrap makes it easy for the Enemy to overcome us: it doesn't have to work hard anymore.

There will always be those who use religion as a tool. The Bible has some very strong condemnation for those individuals. However Trump is not really utilizing religion so he isn't really a good example for this. He does pander towards Christians but I don't think he's ever claimed to be one.

And like I said... There is no perfect obedience or otherwise we would be in heaven right now.

Just because we can't be perfect doesn't mean we throw our hands up and accept things our Father told us to call out and rebuke. No one drop of water believes it will create a flood; our mentalities toward the Father, and humans in general needs to change if we want change.

I am not talking about TRUMP; however, Trump specifically claimed that he didn't have anything he needed to repent for. People certainly believe he was set up by the Most High God to be president - which he may have been! I actually believe it to be true, as well - except Trump is likely set up by the Most High God to judge. People forget one of the main reasons why the Most High God places someone in power - no matter who - is to judge nations. America has played the fool for too long.
 
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