Is Only God Perfect?

[Blessedj01]

Yes, I agree free will is what made sin a possibility-and that God desired that we have that gift in spite of the potential for evil that can come of it. The question remains, though, why would God's good creation-humankind- choose to abuse that freedom and sin?

Jealousy. The original belief is that we can be "like God," again, it's not because God made us with a flaw, it's because we are not like God yet we like to think we are.

And the only answer that comes up for me is that part of His creative process isn't finished-He's molding us, educating us, having us be co-creators,

The CREATION was finished. What he's doing now is redeeming us, bringing us to Him. He knew that a side-effect of our free-will would be sin. This work now is a work of Love that God is doing.

We're not co-creators...we're not even the authors of salvation.

if you will, participants in bringing about a greater creation precisely because of that free will-because He wants, ultimately, a creation that freely chooses only the good, rejecting the evil.

See, there is no 'greater creation.' It's already done. We will eventually reach the point of freely choosing "only the good," but it won't happen until we're in the direct presence of God once again after Jesus' redemptive work reaches all man-kind.

And part of that process, with all the suffering and struggle it involves, is for us to experience-to know-good and evil, so we might finally, fully, like the Prodigal Son, return from the pigsty to the Father from whom we strayed and where we were always meant to be.

I don't think it was ever intended to be part of the experience. It's an unnecessary suffering we brought upon ourselves. God knew it'd happen though, but must have decided it'd be worth it anyway.

Maybe God can't create another god, with wisdom and will as perfect as His, or approximating His, except within the dimension of time, which affords us the opportunity to work out our salvation, to struggle with the attraction to sin (anything outside His will, anything apart from Him first and foremost), with the ingredients of revelation and grace playing their roles, so that ultimately He ends up with a creation that chooses life over death, good over evil, God over no God.

Why would God need to create another god?

Also God isn't going to re-make us so that we don't choose evil any more. He's DEFEATED evil, he's DEFEATED death. It's existence will not cease completely, it will just be separated from God and His people.

I think we really need to remember that God did not simply "get rid of" evil, or something like that. To do that would require getting rid of us as well. He DEFEATED evil. Remember that one. 'Cos there's a big difference.

 

[fhansen]

Jealousy. The original belief is that we can be "like God," again, it'

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s not because God made us with a flaw, it's because we are not like God yet we like to think we are.

jealousy would count as a major flaw

The CREATION was finished. What he's doing now is redeeming us, bringing us to Him. He knew that a side-effect of our free-will would be sin. This work now is a work of Love that God is doing.

God's plan from the beginning is to bring a greater good out of the evil that resulted from creating man with the gift of free will.

We're not co-creators...we're not even the authors of salvation.

Of course we're not the authors of salvation. But God wants us involved nonetheless-not because He needs it-but simply because He desires it that way.

Why would God need to create another god?

God can do whatever He wants. He already created man in His image but man, willfully and foolishly, distorted that image.

Also God isn't going to re-make us so that we don't choose evil any more. He's DEFEATED evil, he's DEFEATED death. It's existence will not cease completely, it will just be separated from God and His people.

Evil's only separated as His people choose to reject it, as His people turn from the world and follow Jesus back to the Father-to ultimate, final goodness-that's the purpose of the whole drama. Until we're still attracted to anything above Him first and foremost, evil still exists, the sin that Adam & Eve chose-willful rebellion against he will of God- still remains. It's a work of God that we're to participate in-as the Potter molds the clay. It's not over until His will is done, until His creation no longer wills to disregard His will. Otherwise He may as well of just stuck Adam & Even and their descendants in heaven to begin with and bypassed the whole mess that ensued in the world man was cast into.

 

[Blessedj01]

jealousy would count as a major flaw

It's not a flaw, it's a side-effect of free-will and when it manifests in human beings it usually takes an evil form. God is a jealous God too, but He doesn't covet things that aren't His.

God's plan from the beginning is to bring a greater good out of the evil that resulted from creating man with the gift of free will.

God's plan is to bring Himself glory. It really has nothing to do with the greater good.

Of course we're not the authors of salvation. But God wants us involved nonetheless-not because He needs it-but simply because He desires it that way.

We're not really involved in it though.

God can do whatever He wants. He already created man in His image but man, willfully and foolishly, distorted that image.

Agree'd there but I still don't know what this has to do with God creating "another god."

Evil's only separated as His people choose to reject it, as His people turn from the world and follow Jesus back to the Father-to ultimate, final goodness-that's the purpose of the whole drama.

The purpose of the whole drama is to bring glory to God. We can't simply reject evil, we can only share in Christ's victory over it. God will physically and spiritually separate people who don't recognize Christ from Himself.

Until we're still attracted to anything above Him first and foremost, evil still exists, the sin that Adam & Eve chose-willful rebellion against he will of God- still remains.

It exists because we still exist as we are in the flesh and because the devil is still the "god of this World." It's not that God makes sin 'unattractive' to us, it's that we have the victory of Christ over sin.

It's a work of God that we're to participate in-as the Potter molds the clay. It's not over until His will is done, until His creation no longer wills to disregard His will.

Actually it's already over. Jesus already defeated sin. We're just still here in the flesh. It'll be "over", for us so to speak, when we're re-united with God the Father in Heaven.

Otherwise He may as well of just stuck Adam & Even and their descendants in heaven to begin with and bypassed the whole mess that ensued in the world man was cast into.

He couldn't just stick people in Heaven that were sinful.

 

[fhansen]

God's plan is to bring Himself glory. It really has nothing to do with the greater good.

Of course it does-whatever good He considers to be greatest. Otherwise there'd be no reason for it all and He'd simply be the author of evil. And He doesn't need us to give Him more glory-He already possesses all that can be had. He likes to share, that's the nature of Love.

We're not really involved in it though. .

Of course we are-we can reject grace given-just as Adam & Eve rejected the very will of God even tho they knew Him more immediately than us-they were in His presence in some capacity.

Agree'd there but I still don't know what this has to do with God creating "another god." .

That's a classic understanding of Christianity. God loves man and wants more for us than we’ll ever know here on earth. St. Athanasius put it this way, "God became man so that men might become gods." Not that we can become God, but because He wants us to share in-to partake of -His divine nature.

It exists because we still exist as we are in the flesh and because the devil is still the "god of this World." It's not that God makes sin 'unattractive' to us, it's that we have the victory of Christ over sin.

Yes, we win the victory over sin as Christ helps us overcome it-that’s what grace seeks to accomplish. And that’s the meaning of the NC promises in Jer 31, “I will place my laws on your hearts and write them in your minds.”

He couldn't just stick people in Heaven that were sinful.

Yes, that’s the point. And He won’t stick people in heaven now that are still sinful-still attracted firstly to anything inferior to Him, to anything outside of or apart from Him. Loving God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and his neighbor as himself is what mans’ justice consists of-it’s what makes him truly right, IOW, and therefore that’s what constitutes his redemption.

 

[WinBySurrender]

What about Angels? Can angels still fall, like Satan once did, or are they eternally secure? Are they "perfect" or not?

I don't have the answers - just wondered within the context of this thread on perfection.

The only fall of angels recorded in the Bible is Satan's rebellion, in which he took one-third of the angels with him. Not saying it couldn't happen again, but it seems unlikely.

 

[Blessedj01]

Of course it does-whatever good He considers to be greatest. Otherwise there'd be no reason for it all and He'd simply be the author of evil. And He doesn't need us to give Him more glory-He already possesses all that can be had. He likes to share, that's the nature of Love.

Of course we are-we can reject grace given-just as Adam & Eve rejected the very will of God even tho they knew Him more immediately than us-they were in His presence in some capacity.

That's a classic understanding of Christianity. God loves man and wants more for us than we’ll ever know here on earth. St. Athanasius put it this way, "God became man so that men might become gods." Not that we can become God, but because He wants us to share in-to partake of -His divine nature.

Yes, we win the victory over sin as Christ helps us overcome it-that’s what grace seeks to accomplish. And that’s the meaning of the NC promises in Jer 31, “I will place my laws on your hearts and write them in your minds.”

Yes, that’s the point. And He won’t stick people in heaven now that are still sinful-still attracted firstly to anything inferior to Him, to anything outside of or apart from Him. Loving God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and his neighbor as himself is what mans’ justice consists of-it’s what makes him truly right, IOW, and therefore that’s what constitutes his redemption.

Talk to you later.

 

[bricklayer]

Interesting, but then who created sin?

God may not sin, but if sin is a deviation from God's will, and he created a means for others to deviate from his will, then couldn't it stand to reason he created sin?

Could sin exist at all if God didn't will it?

Or...

If man created sin, because we have free will, then could sin be it's own man-made perfection?

Were we not made in his image? Isn't free will and having a soul make us more "divine" than the rest of creation? Do we not have at least a limited ability to create (a painting, a building, man-made elements)?

ehhh...it's late.

Sin is that which is contrary to God's nature.
This is exactly the creation God chose to create, sin and all, knowing it exhaustively apart from its being.
This creation is exactly the combination of our choices God chose to create knowing them exhaustively apart from their being.
Even as an author is exactly one person removed from the "sins" of his characters, God is exactly one person removed from the sins of His creatures.

 

[Blessedj01]

We're adding philosophical statements to scripture here which isn't right.

Creation was perfect. Anyway, I'm not coming back to argue about it.

 

[Emmy]

Dear bhar. In St.Matthews, chapter 5, verse 48, Jesus tells His listeners: " Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect."
Here we hear Jesus telling us that it is possible, but sadly we know from experience, it is very hard. We have been given much time, and we can keep on trying. God will see our sincere efforts, and we will be judged accordingly. I say this with love, bhar. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ. P.S. Jesus tells us in St.Matthews: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. The second is like it: Love our neighbour as ourselves." That leads to perfection in all we say, or do, or tell, or even treat all we know, and all we meet, friends and not friends.

 

[myfatherabove]

Going off what the original poster said, which I agree with his definition of imperfection, if we call God "perfect" that can translate to he is all powerful, we can also infer that this universe or "system" we live in is "imperfect" because there is existence, so the "perfect" God is incompatible with this "imperfect" system. That is why he is absent from our world and direct contact is not possible, because of that technical logic. One can also infer that if God is perfect, the fact that he in any reason created an "imperfect" system or performed any action in that matter makes himself imperfect because true perfection is nothing, non-existence that is absent of all things. One can even go further and say that this previous reasoning comes from an imperfect creature that resides in the imperfect system and therefore the reasoning itself it subject to imperfection thereby making it void. After coming to that conclusion, which is as far as my mind will take me, it opened up a new understanding that God is beyond our imperfect reason, he is an unfathomable and intangible deity that I am grateful to call my Father.

 

[Blessedj01]

we can also infer that this universe or "system" we live in is "imperfect" because there is existence"

God doesn't make things that are imperfect. Whatever flaws you find, they're contrived and not imperfections from God's perspective. The only thing imperfect about creation is sin.

That is why he is absent from our world and direct contact is not possible, because of that technical logic.

God is outside the system because He is the CREATOR.

Direct contact IS possible, as is the case when Jesus walked the earth.

 

[Emmy]

Dear bhar. In St.Matthew 5, verse 48, Jesus tells a crowd: " Be ye therefore perfect as God is perfect." That tells us that Jesus knows that we can become perfect, while living on Earth. Jesus does not say that we cannot be perfect, Jesus tells us that we can be perfect. We know it is not easy, but it can be done. How? Jesus gives us the answer. In St. Matthew 22, verses 34-40. " The first Commandment is: Love God with all your hearts, with all your souls, and with all your minds. The second is like it: Love your neighbour as yourselves. On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
Love is a Christian`s weapon to overcome all, and change all for the better: Selfless love, freely given and no conditions made. Jesus will give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will empower us us with His Love, also. Jesus told us to " Ask and ye will receive," then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour. ( all others, friends and not friends) God will see our efforts to treat our neighbour as we would like to be treated: kindly and with love, with friendly words and encouraging smiles. God will also know that we love Him. How? We are following God`s Commandments to love and care.
Love does not only make us feel good, Love will also change us into the men and women, which God wants us to become: Loving God with all our beings, and loving our neighbour as we love ourselves: treat others as we love to be treated. God is Love, and Jesus died out of Love for God and for Man. Jesus our Saviour will lead us back to God, (where we came from)Jesus is The Way. Perfect children/sons and daughter to live with our Perfect God. We have been given years to become as God wants us to become. I say this with love, bhar. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Emmy]

Dear bhar. God is Love, and only God is perfect, so say you. How would you describe God`s Perfection? What has God, what we, who are made in God`s image, cannot also become, or do? I am not talking of God`s Almightiness, or God`s Power. I am talking of God`s Love and Compassion, and all-round Perfection in Agape.
God wants our Love freely given and no conditions tagged on, whatsoever: For Himself and for our neighbour. What is in God`s Love that we cannot learn and imitate? One day we will all be with our Heavenly Father, and since God does not force us, how do you think, Heaven, God`s Kingdom will deal with our selfishness and wanting our will at all cost.
We are in this world to learn to love and care, to live with our brothers and sisters in peace and harmony. Even if God will bless us with a complete change, God still wants us to have learned to love and to care. God will know how obediently we have followed His Commandments to: Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. ALSO: to love others as we love ourselves: In God`s Kingdom there will be no selfishness, in whatever form allowed. I say this with love, bhar. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Blessedj01]

Dear bhar. In St.Matthew 5, verse 48, Jesus tells a crowd: " Be ye therefore perfect as God is perfect." That tells us that Jesus knows that we can become perfect, while living on Earth. Jesus does not say that we cannot be perfect, Jesus tells us that we can be perfect.

Saying, "be perfect" is different from saying "you can be perfect."

I appreciate your sentiment, but I think Jesus meant something a little different. Jesus is actually stating the opposite, that no-one will be perfect, but that everyone should try. In fact, it's impossible for a man to become as perfect as God just based on his own righteousness - and this is something the people hearing this message as it was spoken would have immediately understood. The instructions we were given for perfection are to love God and one another and to live in grace. Jesus is asking us to strive for grace in everything we do, therefore emulating as best we can His example on earth.

This is different from being perfect in the sense that God is perfect. God sees us as perfect in faith through the atonement of Jesus' blood, but it's different from being perfect in and of ourselves. No-one will achieve earthly perfection - and that's Jesus' point. This is a bold rebuke of Jews of the time who considered themselves perfect because of the Law. They were in fact, hypocrites. Jesus is saying that everyone should treat each other gracefully, (perfectly), because no-one is actually perfect.

We have been given years to become as God wants us to become. I say this with love, bhar. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

We have long years, but that's not the point of our lives or the time we're given. Our mission is to administer grace - part of that is to share the salvation message of Jesus Christ. Some of us aren't given long years, some of us are. All I know is that 60-90 years on Earth is not long to God, or the humans that came before us. The long years we may or may not have are a graceful gift from God, but they're not intended for us to somehow become perfect during those years. Only God will perfect us, at our resurrection.

 

[Emmy]

Dear bhar. God is Love and God is Perfect. In Matthews, chapter 22, verses 34-40, Jesus tells a Lawyer: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is: Love thy neighbour as thyself." Then Jesus states this great truth: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prohets." Love is what God is, and what God wants from us.
In Matthews, chapter 5, verse 48: Jesus tells us: " Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Jesus is telling us, and if it was impossible for us, Jesus would not want it from us. Therefore: Is Only God Perfect? can be answered: " God is perfect, and God wants perfect children/sons and daughters, perfect in loving God with all our beings, and loving our neighbour, ( all we know and all we meet) as we love ourselves; or treating all others, as we love to be treated. All our actions should be done from love and care. Jesus told us: " ask and ye will receive," then we thank God and share all love and Joy with all around us. A Christian`s great weapon is Love, with it we conquer all enmity and unlovely behaviour. In time we ourselves, will change into loving and caring men and women. I say this with love, bhar. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ. P.S. When God sees us trying sincerely, God the Holy Spirit will give us the power we need.

 

[Emmy]

Dear bhar. We have been given years to become perfect, in loving God and loving and caring for our neighbour. God wants loving children, and God wants to see our loving started on Earth, God wants loving men and women to become the loving children to spend eternity with. That is why Jesus told us: "Be ye therefore perfect, as God in Heaven is perfect." St. Paul told us in 1) Corinthians, chapter 13, verse 13: Love, Faith and Hope abide, but the greatest of these is LOVE. Love conquers all, and we have to start on Earth. I say this with love, bhar. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Emmy]

Dear bhar. In St.Matthews, chapter 5, verses 48, Jesus tells us: " Be ye perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." Jesus would not tell us, if He did not mean it. And in St.Matthews, chapter 18, verse 3, Jesus tells us:" Unless ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven." Jesus is talking of Love for God and love for our neighbour. When Jesus tells the Lawyer in St.Matthews, chapter 22, verse 34-40: The first and great Commandment is: " Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind," Jesus means it. The second is: Love thy neighbour as thyself." Then Jesus points out: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Jesus puts it simply and straightforward: God wants our love, freely given and no conditions made, and Jesus tells us that we can become perfect as God is perfect. God is Love, and God wants us to do everything we say, or do, or think we ought to do, or tell others to do, or stand up for, out of love, freely given and no conditions tagged on.
Jesus will give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will empower us with strenght to be loving and caring. Jesus told us: " Ask and ye will receive," then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with all around us. That is what God wants from us, and that is what we are capable of doing. God will not force us, but we have to " ASK and be GIVEN, then SHARE all LOVE:" For God and for each other. God is Perfect, and with God`s Guidance we can beome perfect, too. It will take time, and God knows it, but God can see our hearts and will know, " ARE WE TRYING TO BECOME AS GOD WANTS US TO BECOME? or will we just ignore it? " I say this with love, bhar. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Adam Warlock]

Creation was 'good' but perhaps not perfect.

Perhaps that is our task - to perfect that which is good.

LOL

 

[Blessedj01]

God makes us perfect through Jesus Christ. He will redeem His creation.

No amount of years on earth will ever make us perfect in the sense that we'll be perfect like Jesus was, exactly.

 

[IisJustMe]

Creation was 'good' but perhaps not perfect.

Perhaps that is our task - to perfect that which is good.